Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Focus Thread : Balancing Range limitations for Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman.
No need to be so aggressive Nifty! 
Point taken though, and a very good one too. Have added it to my post.California should be up in a few hours so we'll see what they say about it if anything.
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 06-22-2005 02:48 PM
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 06-22-2005 04:22 PM
BadgerSmaker wrote:Minimum range caps are an extremely unpopular option for Riflemen, but accuracy penalties dont seem technically viable as it would mean a total overhaul of the combat system to put them in.
I thought that was something the devs were rather adept at now?
BadgerSmaker wrote:This is a very sensitive issue at the moment so I would appreciate your input.At the moment, Rifles have no range limitations while PIstols and Carbines do.Minimum range caps are an extremely unpopular option for Riflemen, but accuracy penalties dont seem technically viable as it would mean a total overhaul of the combat system to put them in.If Rifles get a min range cap then Carbines may get one too.Pistoleers and Carbineers are well versed in using Rifles to gain range and we PIstoleers only lose out on speed and defence mods when wielding a Rifle as most of our accuracy is general.Riflemen and Carbineers would find themselves pulling a pistol for short range work the same way we pull a carb or rifle for long range.So, any ideas?
Have you ever played a rifleman? I ask because we already miss 60% of the time or more when at close range when using a rifle. "Accuracy penalties dont seem technically viable"?! They're already *there*, pick up a rifle and test it out yourself.
To continue actually because I thought of some more things. Carbineers out-damage rifleman. Hands down out damage us in fact over time. We have one special that does more damage then them and its on a warm up and has a long cool down and that is is snipershot. Its only gooes for burst damage in PVP, using it in PVE you might use it as an opening shot and thats it. Carbineers snares work better, they have AoE specials *and* they do more damage then us (lower SAC + legshot having higher modifier on it then headshot).
The only thing using a rifle has for it going is its greater range and at close range we *do* suffer pretty nasty accuracy penalities. So before you go yelling nerf/"balance" try playing as a rifleman and see how well we do at close range and look at your combat log. Our highest damage weapon is available to anyone level 54 and higher (the ALR has a higher max damage cap then a t21 last I knew and requires only 4 tissues instead of 6). I'm already planning on getting a pistol made because at close range I can barely hit the broad-side of a barn. So instead of dealing with some fool that doesn't know better to change his weapon at close range you want to make it so he has to and can easily keep doing what hes been doing to you? Interesting.
Message Edited by Nisdain on 06-22-2005 07:24 AM
How many people have been krayt hunting with a rifle post CU?
There's a strange bug, not sure if its server-side or client-side, that I've run into while fighting krayts. I'll root the dragon, pound away for a bit and start moving when the root fades. I'll snare it with kneecap shot and keep moving. All the time I'll ensure that I'm 32m+ from my target and out of melee range.
Some of the time when I'm doing this I'll have the dragon 60m away from me and suddenly notice 800+ damage floating above my head. The krayt has become sick of being rooted and simply warped on top of me, except my HUD hasn't updated the fact that the krayt is standing on my head and as far as I know its 60m away.
If rifles were to get a minimum range you're going to get situations where according to the HUD your target is 60m+ away yet the server thinks its only 5m away.
Another situation comes to mind that doesn't make much sense either:
AOE shots. With master rifleman/master pistoleer I have Fan Shot. It is conceivable that if minimum ranges were added I could target something that's 20m away from me and be unable to hit, however I would hit a group of targets that are 40m behind the first target.
I solo'd a gorax last night with an ALR, I have no rifle mods bar the general from pistoleer and didnt miss very much at all from 15m, in fact I killed it quicker then with my cl54 Gorax/Krayt Pistols.
Giftmacher wrote:
Interesting to hear about possible accuracy modifiers at short range, presumably if they are active there would be no problem applying them to different weapons? Anybody know when accuracy modifiers for short ranges do come into play? I've seen no obvious information to indicate boundaries or underlying numbers, which is a pity because if these are in then we should know about them.
BadgerSmaker wrote:
I solo'd a gorax last night with an ALR, I have no rifle mods bar the general from pistoleer and didnt miss very much at all from 15m, in fact I killed it quicker then with my cl54 Gorax/Krayt Pistols.
There are no range accuracy penalties that I know of.
Odd. Wonder if there are accuracy penalties on the specials in that case?
I know that using certain specials like conceal shot or sniper shot while I'll generally always hit a CL80 mob at 64m in PvE, once that gap is closed to 45-55m I'll miss about 30% of the shots (this only appeared I think in the first or second post-CU patch, before then it wasn't an issue).
If I get the chance today I'll try using some pistoleer specials from that range to see if there's any difference.
Nifty wrote:Well that leads me to the simple solution that someone else pointed out. Put the range limits on the frickin' specials, and not the weapons! You don't want damage dealing done up close, then restrict the larger damage dealing specials on their range. You don't want "crowd control" done from range? Then restrict "crowd control" specials on their range too.
Range, Aimed, Placed shots all are 0-65m. Firearm Strike is 0-10m. All other ranged specials have a minimum range and a maximum range. Roles are then defined by specials, and not weapons.
Never happen though, as that's not SOE's aim. They want the roles defined by weapon, for some strange reason.
I think thats a good idea, way better than having a min range.
I'd be more in favor of pistoleers losing their movement encumbrance, while addingmore movement encumbrance to rifleman. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage balance between pistols and rifles, and adding a fast movement perk to pistoleer would be a nice way to implement it.
BadgerSmaker wrote:
No need to be so aggressive Nifty!
Point taken though, and a very good one too. Have added it to my post.California should be up in a few hours so we'll see what they say about it if anything.
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 06-22-2005 02:48 PM
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 06-22-2005 04:22 PM
They gave me a 5 in Aggression in the CU documents. I'm just trying to live up to that. 
Oh, I don't expect you to hear anything back from the Devs on it until they implement something on TC. Just as I never expect to ever see a Dev post in this forum.
I also agree, that the misses in PvP are due to the player's defense mods, as CL equivalent and lower mobs appear to have no defense mods at all.
Ternque01 wrote:I'd be more in favor of pistoleers losing their movement encumbrance, while adding more movement encumbrance to rifleman. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much of an advantage balance between pistols and rifles, and adding a fast movement perk to pistoleer would be a nice way to implement it.
I think most rifleman would find that acceptable. And I dont think it can be just defenses in the work because they only apply when your accuracy is lower, using pyro and AIM and still miss a damn lot in PVP and between that and my accuracy SEAs and what not I have 750ish accuracy and *still* miss. Possibly its on the specials then: I'd like to see some tests done on that because honestly I've never seen any done in that way.