Pistoleer Archive

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Nifty wrote:

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Logitition wrote:

Now to be fair in this manner, what should pistols min range be? 10m?

I guess I can see it.. 10-40m pistol 20-50m a carbine, and 35-65 a rifle. It would really help melee out alot this way.. Everyone balance in their ranges.

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I see nothing wrong with this (outside of "why can't I shoot this thing right in front of me???"), if range limits are to stay in.

Really nothing else wrong?I don't know the more I think about it the less I like the way it restricts choice. Ranged without root or melee (and probably what medic skills you can get) would be a dead template, otherwise you'd probably have to pwn the melee mob/PC before they lost the root, because after that you're likely going to be dead. Once they close below your minimum range it's all over, when root is fixed you've got KD that might buy you a few seconds but without medic I'm not sure you'd last to get another root out of it. Sounds like a fast track to FOTMs to me.

We force melee to either use a ranged weapon outside of their range limit or do nothing. So what's wrong with forcing us to use a melee weapon inside of 10m or do nothing? (outside of the fact that in the movies, blasters were obviously used at ranges much closer than 10m.)

As I said above, it limits viable template choice a great deal and, as you point out, biases towards non-canon profs. Also I can't even begin to contemplate how prohibitive this would be for PvE, particularly for solo play, I prefer grouping myself but sometimes friends aren't around to play with or I might want to run a few combat based errands to build up to more group based material (Myydril caves for example). Sounds bad to me, and much as I have sympathy for melee profs having limited range I don't think any of these caps should apply to ranged weapons. I'd even support better ranged defence, CoB orarmour break for melee profs to even the odds and help them weather a root, but point blank deadzones is just not going to be fun play. Let's get back to the accuracy mods, they made sense and under the new system could work quite well.

[edited to make a bit more sense]

Gift.

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Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-22-2005 03:46 AM

Range limitations on ranged weapons is just plain dumb .. period .. their is no arguement!! Personally, I thought the old "pre cu" way was right on the money.

• Huge accuracy penalties for using your ranged weapon outside of it's designed ranged.


• Huge accuracy penalties for shooting while moving.


• Huge accuracy bonuses for using prone and kneeling positions.

This is certainly much closer to reality than having a limitation of ANY kind on your ranged weapon .. be it a pistol/carbine/rifle.

I foughtin the Marine Corps. in the first Gulf War and currently serve as a Police Officer in Wash DC. I have fired just about every type of ranged weapon there is. You can't tell me that I can not shoot and kill my target with my M16 at point blank range .. or that I can't shoot my target with my pistol at 60m .. because you can!!

Give back the no range limitations on all ranged weapons .. and bring back the accuracy penalties from the pre cu days .. it wouldn't be that tough to recode something that has already been written.

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Karbal wrote:

Range limitations on ranged weapons is just plain dumb .. period .. their is no arguement!!

I foughtin the Marine Corps. in the first Gulf War and currently serve as a Police Officer in Wash DC. I have fired just about every type of ranged weapon there is. You can't tell me that I can not shoot and kill my target with my M16 at point blank range .. or that I can't shoot my target with my pistol at 60m .. because you can!!

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Real life concerns not withstanding, the original CU model for ranges had rifles unable to attack between 35m and 10m and a melee attack at 10m. But then they also had 128m range... so...

I still don't know what to do with these ranges, I'm not sure how technically feasible it is to implement accuracy penalties in the new system.

The short term fixes seem to be:

• Remove all range restrictions and let everyone hit 64m


• Put a minimum range cap on Rifles.

Neither seem like a good idea.

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Short_Timer wrote:

I hope you guys dont mind me sticking my 2p into this as I'm trying to be balanced and conciliatory about this whole issue. It that has a lot of people very divided and a sensible solution needs to be reached without causing imbalance elsewhere. The last thing this game needs is a string of nerfs to a succession of professions as the Devs realise they have caused more imbalance with each progressive change.

Penti A'scari

Master Rifleman, Master Squadleader (and a little bit of Pistoleer)

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That's what the thread is here for, matey.

If Min ranges came in, I think it would have to be on high certed rifles only like the ALR and T21, and some other high certed rifles. Then you can keep low CL rifles for grinding with, maybe even have lower CL rifles with 0-35m range only.

What do you reckon?

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Short_Timer wrote:

I am a rifleman and although I am not happy about the proposed changes I am accepting the inevitable. However, there is at least one angle non of you have addressed and that is the new players that want to be rifleman. How are they going to be able to grind their way through the skill boxes with this implemented?

Actually this is one of the things I was thinking about when I mentioned soloing above, min range caps could be seriously punative to player progression at very least I think NPCs will be the only viable targets and if they switch to melee you'll have a problem. Grouping may be great for leveling but when your friends aren't around to help you're going to be pretty stuck. Unless you don't mind grouping with anyone and everyone (and I personally don't really) then you will have your independence and choice undermined.

As a novice marksman you have no root or snare, but you do have the movement penalty whilst holding your rifle. So the mob closes in and I cant use my rifle. Your answer is "switch to a pistol". Ok, so I kill the critter and get 300 pistols xp and 20 rifles Hmmm, gonna make this a slow process

Of course this problem escalates once u reach Novice Rifleman because any armour I wear to protect myself is going to slow me down even more..........Hmmmm, but we get a snare move then. Oh, but its the worst in the game (possibly), so we are back to the same issue.

So what solution is there to the above situation? Grouping.................great, but what if I cant find a groupetc ec [insert additional reasons as necessary]

This proposal has, admittedly, been generated due to the dominance of Rifleman in PvP. and so obviously something has to be done to rebalance this. However in order for any solution to be accepted and workable it MUST work across the entire skill range, from Novice Marksman to Master RIfleman. I dont believe the current suggestion does this..............on its own!!

Niether do I, it does nothing to stop people being rooted outside their range, or prevent a close range pistols root where a rifleman can then run away and switch back to a high damage rifle. Personally, I see it as extending the range problem melee professions currently have to everyone else, and I'd rather fix that issue by giveing them a working mitigation special to even the odds in combat c.f. giving everyone range issues.

Currently pistoleers and carbineers can, if my information is correct, overcome their ranged issues with weapons that go beyond the current restrictions. If a minimum range for rifles is introduced then the only wayI can see to solve the skill progression issue I have outlined is to introduce a similar weapon for Rifleman, that has no minimum range. Its a horrible thing to propose and opens up all sorts of issues with balancing SAC and DMG scales etc, but I personally cant see any other way of working it?

I hope you guys dont mind me sticking my 2p into this as I'm trying to be balanced and conciliatory about this whole issue. It that has a lot of people very divided and a sensible solution needs to be reached without causing imbalance elsewhere. The last thing this game needs is a string of nerfs to a succession of professions as the Devs realise they have caused more imbalance with each progressive change.

Well the debate concerns your profession so I see no reason for you not to post, I think this issue benefits from everyone's attention.

Gift.

Penti A'scari

Master Rifleman, Master Squadleader (and a little bit of Pistoleer)

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BadgerSmaker wrote:

Real life concerns not withstanding, the original CU model for ranges had rifles unable to attack between 35m and 10m and a melee attack at 10m. But then they also had 128m range... so...

I still don't know what to do with these ranges, I'm not sure how technically feasible it is to implement accuracy penalties in the new system.

I wonder if we can tempt a POV out of a Dev on this matter? If we know what we've got to work with I think we can better direct our thoughts to a solution.

The short term fixes seem to be:

• Remove all range restrictions and let everyone hit 64m


• Put a minimum range cap on Rifles.

Neither seem like a good idea.

I agree, the former removes the differnt weapon dynamics completely and the latter is too heavy handed on one profession.

Gift.

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I have posted in the corr forum asking for more info...

I also suggested that if they are looking at hard caps for rifle ranges then only put them on CL50+ rifles.

You could pull the ALR, T21, LD-1, SniperorJawa Ionfor the opening (which would be 35-65m)then drop to a Berserker, Light laser Rifle or Tenloss (all cl40) that can hit close up (0-65m) or pull a cl54 pistol.

Lower Cl weapons would be similarly balanced to enable players to still grind xp close up but with the option of a higher cl range capped gun that can be swapped out for a lower cl non capped gun.

Obviously at some point in the grind you will have access to a non capped rifle that is better than your capped one, but at master it would all work out.

Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 06-22-2005 02:11 PM

We keep talking about range limitations, but I'm wondering why? Is it solely for variety? Is it for balance between the ranged professions themselves?

What is balanced (solely between the ranged professions) about range limitations, minimum or maximum, that isn't balanced by not having them at all? All we get from range limitations is there are times where you can shoot me when I can't shoot you, and there are times where I can shoot you when you can't shoot me. How is that any more balanced than I can shoot you any time you can shoot me?

No, it's to have "roles" in combat. Pistols are supposed to be up close and rifles are supposed to be at range. That's all SOE wants. Why? I don't know. So they are going to artificially force us into those "roles" with range limitations (they've forced us into close support from the start of the CU, and now they're thinking of restricting rifles to the back of the pack.)

IF they do institute a minimum range on weapons, will Firearm Strike still work? All ranged professions get the basic version in the marksman tree. My guess is it definitely will, and that will be SOE's answer to "how can I hit something if I can't use my weapon?" They'll just say, sure you can use it, you have firearm strike (though not until rifles 3 for rifles.)

Well that leads me to the simple solution that someone else pointed out. Put the range limits on the frickin' specials, and not the weapons! You don't want damage dealing done up close, then restrict the larger damage dealing specials on their range. You don't want "crowd control" done from range? Then restrict "crowd control" specials on their range too.

Range, Aimed, Placed shots all are 0-65m. Firearm Strike is 0-10m. All other ranged specials have a minimum range and a maximum range. Roles are then defined by specials, and not weapons.

Never happen though, as that's not SOE's aim. They want the roles defined by weapon, for some strange reason.