Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Issues List...time to think of Whats wrong or What you would like to see. Updated 10/08
Squidwalker
Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:30 am
#40
Hmm what would I like to see? Here there are in order of how I would like to see them done.
1. fix the specials that are broken. a.pistol melee def 2, b. disarming shot1-2 c. pointblankshots (all of them) d. multitarget pistolshot.
2. then I would like to see some of the specials changed a bit so there is not so much redundancy.
3. once the specials are working and the profession itself standalone are working OK, then balance pistoleer with the other combat professions.
It's stupid to try and balance something that is 90% broken to begin with. If you balance something that is broken, then try to fix it, it could very well be out of balance again after fixing things, and you have to redo work.
So...States, Speed, Defenses, Damage Types how would you rank these in order of importance, #1 most important, #4 Least important.
1. speed(but this doesn't mean crap until ALL combat professions have a new speed forumal worked out and being restricted to their speed limits. Like rifles should NEVER be shooting faster then say 3)
2. defences(pistoleer is considered a close combat nearly melee profession. They need nearly the same level of defences the melee professions have.
3. states (more)
4. damage types, actually I think it'sfine now, just ad one more, like cold. done deal.
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 10-12-2004 08:34 AM
Rockhurst
Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:52 am
#41
If the role of pistoleer must be the deliverer of status attacks, how's this for an idea for a fix to the multitarget pistol shot: This shot applies a randomstatus attack to all opponents in an area. You have a certainchance of hitting the entire group of opponents with a status effect, for example:
Squidwalker wrote:
1. fix the specials that are broken. a.pistol melee def 2, b. disarming shot1-2 c. pointblankshots (all of them) d. multitarget pistolshot.
- Stun - 15%
- Dizzy - 15%
- Intimidate - 10%
- KD - 5%
- Warcry - 10%
- Bleed - 15%
- Fire - 10%
- Blind - 5%
- Posture Down - 10%
- No effect - 5%
That would make a Master Pistoleer a very valued addition to any hunting party...we might even serve some purpose in the DWB.
Concidering that pistoleers are quite inept in the DWB (the place we must go to get our master weapon), I definitely believe that the DE-10 needs some amount of armor piercing and a rarer damage type (given the blue shots, perhaps cold?).
-Darkstarr-
Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:55 am
#42
In response to LordMaxx:
I think something that would balance the fact that other profs, like BH and Smuggler, that use our abilities would be the pistol speed.
The revamp is rumored to incorporate dual wielding, so...
Double the speed cap to 200, 100 for each pistol. Grant 90-100 speed atmaster pistol and master BH.Master pistoleer would remain uneffected, as would BH. However, you would need 200 speed to effectively wield both pistols at the same time at the speed cap. This way, a BH becomes a more offensive approach, low defenses but more effective specials, being able to fire a single pistol at the speed cap. Master pistol becomes defensive with a speed cap for 1 pistol. Combined, youget a close-range-defensive template with dual wielding capabilities. This accounts for a more offensive version of pistoleer, but balances to the point that pistols still remains close range. Smuggler then, effectively becomes an enhancer to pistols instead of "another pistol tree to add on."
In summary:
Master Pistol: 100 Speed, High Defense, Close Range, Few Specials, enough Speed to cap 1 pistol but has dual wielding capability
BH Pistols: 100 Speed, Low Defense, High Offense, enough Speed to cap 1 pistol but has dual wielding capability
Smuggler Pistols: More "effective" specials
Combined, they round out the pistoleer. Independently, they give each version of the pistoleer a flavor, yet leave it with a distinct weakness. I know this mentions BH and Smuggler, but seeing as how they incorporate our modifiers and use our abilities, there really is no way around it.
Survivalist
Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:01 am
#43
Well, my main wishes are:
1) Pistoleers should be by far the fastest range profession, so its speed.
2) Dual wield, of course.
3)Blaster damage, all availablepistols should be useable for a Master Pistoleer (so Scatter and Launcher as well).
4)A Dizzy/KD style maybe?
5) One or two AP2 pistols would be very nice and handy (AP2 for Rep. Blaster for example).
Okok, i admit, have had some sweetdreams...but 1) is a MUST BE in my humble opinion.
MonoAtreides
Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:43 am
#44
To Datch:
You say that everyone should be able to do high end pve or that no one should still leaves out the question of pvp. Not everyone's main focus is high end pve. Personally I have seem a resurgence of pvp on Kettemoor that is remarkable. So, if you think that every profession should be able to hunt high end pve then surely you must think that every profession should be able to pvp equally as well. I agree with LordMaxx that pistoleer needs to be redefined. At the present state that is all but impossible to do with pistoleer being so broken. However, when that fateful day happens with this mythical revamp or whatever it is called I still believe that in pve pistoleer should be a support profession in high end pve, and that is why I think that state effect attacks are necessary. Also, I think that when pistoleer is fixed we will be much better in pvp as well. On a sort of side note, everyone seems to agree that pistoleer needs speed the most. But what about rifleman that can still headshot 3 at the cap? Who cares if we get more speed if a rifleman can shoot just as fast still!??? They need to be slowed down.
Good discussion everyone!
BadgerSmaker
Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:58 pm
#45
LordMaxx wrote:
We dont just need our specials fixed, we need a new role and that is what the combat revamp should be doing for us.
Indeed, as for the role of the Pistoleer, I'll give you my current role... once again using the DWB as an example, simply because this is the only content in SWG that currently requires any teamwork.
I'll go in with a load of TK's, Swordsman, Rifleman, BH's and Pikeman... so what is my job as a Pistoleer?
What I end up doing is aggroing all ranged mobs onto me using PMD1 to get them off the melee tanks that dont have RDM3, I just run around collecting them up and wait till the group is ready for the next target.
I rarely use specials or fire at anything as the damage caused is negligable, and I'm not using my Krayt weapons in PvE. 
Riflemen call me over to get SBD's off them, Swordsman tell me if a BD is shooting them and I go collect them up and aggro them onto me. The pistoleer as a "ranged tank" is pretty awesome... I've had melee stackers tell me I tank better than melee class. Pistoleer certainly is strong in that defensive regard.
The rest of the time I am just using the CM/Doc part of my template, so all I would need is for Pistoleer to be viable offensively, perhaps the group would call for states to be applied to the various mobs.
Then my role would be one of Mobile Object Control, "tank that, stun that, dizzy that, grab that one, intimidate him, get that mob off that player and onto me, throw some blind attacksover that way" etc etc rather than just being a walking punchbag.
A special move that causes a mob to aggro you rather than relying on spamming the very weak 5m KD move we have would be useful, more 32m area attacks with states on would be a dream come true. 
Then maybe someone, someday would ask "Do we have any Pistoleers?" in a groupchat pane....
Jeterb
Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:18 pm
#46
BadgerSmaker wrote:
Badger pretty much sums it up for me. We need more definition and a clearer role in combat. I also like the idea we should be the ranged proffession with the most finesse. (with fencer being most finesse in melee). The combination MP/Fencer could have some nice side effects that shouldn't necessarely be of stacking character. Maybe quick switch between sword and pistol or something..
What was the original idea for the balance between Pistoleers, Carbineersand Rilfemen? Something along the line of:
Pistols - low damage - high speed - directable states (all of them?)- lots/all of damage types available - good at shortto medium range - favors melee defense - fast movement speed - fast weapon change speed (only when changing to another pistol) - low armour piercing
Carbines - medium damage - medium speed - random states - half or more damage types available -bestat mid to long range - balanced between melee and ranged defense - good movement speed - good weapon change speed when grabbing another type of carbine - good armour piercing
Rifles - high damage - low speed - a few states - a few damage types available - excellent at long range - favors ranged defense - least movement speed - slowest at changing to other rifles - high armour piercing
That way you could pick one that favours your playstyle, would you prefer to be a high damaging, slow,lumbering, heavy hitter... or the fast moving, fast hitting,state effect pistoleer... or maybe the carbineer who bridges the gap between the two?
Quite honestly I wouldn't know where to start with Pistoleer as a profession on its own. If it were me I'd dump all the current specials and make an entirely new set that makes Pistoleer the technical fighterit should be.
Message Edited by BadgerSmaker on 10-08-2004 01:44 PM
LordMaxx
Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:15 pm
#47
Alot of good ideas...it seems speed is the biggest burr in our saddles...where as we should be a speedy profession we need Bounty hunter to really make it happen...and even then a rifleman can catch us on speed. That is definitely a HIGH priority.
Next is basically useful attacks and by that I think we need state attacks. We need to make alot of our specials worth it...and make the otherside fear it! I dont know if disarming shot could actually disarm, that could almost be exploitable unless it was on a high timer...higher than KD...but I will mention it. Our role should be Very fast close ranged fighter. Enough defenses to make us not so easy meat to the melee'ers, and enough speed that our punch being lower doesnt hamper us too much.
I can only hope after this is said and done that in large scale PVP combat I hope to hear the remark..."Oh crap they have some pistoleers!" hehe it could happen!
Next is basically useful attacks and by that I think we need state attacks. We need to make alot of our specials worth it...and make the otherside fear it! I dont know if disarming shot could actually disarm, that could almost be exploitable unless it was on a high timer...higher than KD...but I will mention it. Our role should be Very fast close ranged fighter. Enough defenses to make us not so easy meat to the melee'ers, and enough speed that our punch being lower doesnt hamper us too much.
I can only hope after this is said and done that in large scale PVP combat I hope to hear the remark..."Oh crap they have some pistoleers!" hehe it could happen!
BadgerSmaker
Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:56 am
#48
I read some old posts on this board where it was figured that disarming shot could greatly reduce the accuracy of your opponent, that being a workable solution... disarming a player is too powerful, they'd lose all their profession defenses and be easy pickings.
If disarming players was implemented Bounty Hunters everywhere would be spamming it at Jedi. Imagine the crying that would cause.
Either that or your opponents accuracy modifier goes to "---" for a set time and is unable to attack.... still a bit too powerful though, considering Disarming Shot 2 has a cone effect.
Saying that, a cone shot that effects the accuracy of opponents would suit the style of the Pistoleer...
MonoAtreides
Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:31 am
#49
I like some of the ideas for disarming shot that badgermilk presented. Lowering your opponents accuracy is an excellent idea if it can be implemented right. A direct effect of lowering your opponents accuracy would greatly help fighting in close quarters as it would act as a good defense and pistoleers wouldn't be so afraid to fight the melee profs up close. Perhaps it can be used like intimidation. It sounds similar to a blinding attack but how about if you could stack disarming shot one and two to devestate their accuracy? Maybe too powerful but if put on a timer maybe it could be worked out.
MonoAtreides
Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:33 am
#50
Ha sorry not Badgermilk, Badgersmaker. What was I thinking? I wish I had edit!!! Isn't badgermilk from an episode of South Park?
LassictheChosen
Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:38 am
#51
Well.....to add my two cents.
Alot of good ideas here. My question is why rate them in any order? They all need to be fixed. Either add a AP2 weapon or give us elect and cold as options. Dual wielding for Masters defiinitely. Pointblankarea2 needs to work. Melee def 2 should kd/dizzy. I liked the melee mit 1 idea. The added terrain negotiation would make sense. I mean how often do you have to be knocked down by a tkm at 20 meters and then not be able to knock him down in turn because of his melee def? Disarming shot should actually disarm and have the delay like kd. We should definitely be able to switch weapons faster than anyone else. Why does the BH burning shot stack with every application and our Healthshot doesn't? Now.....I did some figuring on quantity of damage over time vs damage per shot when comparing a flamethrower firing normally at a base and me using pointblank single 2, I did more damage overall due to weapon speed. Now comparing it to a T21 using strafe shot doing more than 3500pts of damage there is no comparison, but he could fire that rifle fast enough to kill everything he had agroe'd before he got to him. This is the problem. we should be able to hit fast enough to make up the volume, but not just outright kill stuff with a couple of hits. Well I think I have rambled enough. We all basically agree on the more salient points. I even think if they did not add anything, but actually made what we have work we would all be happy.....but that's just me.
Lassic Chosen
House Davion
Radiant server
jiperz
Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:08 am
#52
I agree with most of the suggestions but I do think we should be entitled to an AP2 pistol namely the DE-10. It is hard to get hold of anyway and only 1 pistol per schematic. So I don't think there would be a flood of them on the market. More sought after yes but still quite rare. The thing looks like a magnum 44. Compare a mag to normal 0.22 calibre and I'm sure you'd appreciate the difference in AP and stopping power. Yes I know they fire bullets IRL and are not energy weapons but the analogy is the same. To compensate for this maybe dual wield should only be applied to AP0 and 1 weapons. The recoil from a DE-10 would make it difficult to manage on its own let alone 2 perhaps.