Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Issues List...time to think of Whats wrong or What you would like to see. Updated 10/08
Datchery
Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:15 am
#27
Defenses, Damage Types, Speed, States
The issue I have with sacrificing damage types is that we're already matched by Rifleman in terms of raw numbers of types (quality is of course another matter)
I also personally view states as the domain of the Carbineers, and I don't really seek to intrude on them, but it 'would' be nice to have maybe 1 state affect in Pistoleer (stance changes/kd don't really count in my view, nor I am considering the cross-classing) lastly, we need a serious increase in defenses (maybe alot more than what is it, 7 total ranged?)
-Datchery
fishbrains
Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:25 am
#28
Datchery wrote:
Defenses, Damage Types, Speed, States
The issue I have with sacrificing damage types is that we're already matched by Rifleman in terms of raw numbers of types (quality is of course another matter)
I also personally view states as the domain of the Carbineers, and I don't really seek to intrude on them, but it 'would' be nice to have maybe 1 state affect in Pistoleer (stance changes/kd don't really count in my view, nor I am considering the cross-classing) lastly, we need a serious increase in defenses (maybe alot more than what is it, 7 total ranged?)
-Datchery
IMO Pistol=states, Carbine=cone attacks, rifle=raw power
MonoAtreides
Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:18 pm
#29
I don't think that it is a bad argument at all. Simply put we should not be able to solo high end PvE. If that is your main focus then be something other than pistoleer. And while a swordsman excels in PvE then do not do nearly as well in PvP. Why should every class be viable in every situation? To me that is basically what you are saying. The whole idea of this game is for groups and teamwork. You may say my thoughts on the matter are not good but I think that you are ignoring the part where I said that I think the main focus of pistoleers is pvp. What you want is to be able to solo nightsisters no problem and then go blast people in pvp but the problem is that that is not fair to other professions. A bh/pistoleer that kites well will destroy someone that is primarily a swordsman. I do agree that we definitely need more defense if we are supposed to fight in close range though.
MonoAtreides
Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:23 am
#30
I keep hearing the argument that we should be able to do better in high end PvE. I respectfully disagree as I believe that pistoleer should be more of a PvP profession. The choice one has to make is what is more important to them, PvP or PvE? Having it both ways is not very fair. And if you don't believe that assesment do you think rifleman is a fair profession? Rifleman is both viable in PvE and PvP and pistoleers cannot stand that idea. So why should pistoleer be a part of the problem? I hate to say it but one of the best ways to make pistoleer better is to tone down rifleman. If you want to excel in high end PvE then be a swordsman. This is why I think that state effects are essential to helping pistoleer in this game. And while a pistoleer is engaged in high end PvE they should be relegated to a support role while swordsman and tkm get down and dirty. I love pistoleer but I dread the devs doing what they have done to so many other professions, over-nerfing or making them way too powerful. The issue has to be balance. For every action there is a reaction that effects something else.
BadgerSmaker
Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:02 am
#31
The point of balancing this game is is that all combat professions will be equally as useful in PvE and PvP.
In the new sysyem, ideallya pistoleer would dish out similar damage over time to a target that a rifleman or swordsman can as they are that much faster. Ideally your choice of profession would stem from your choice of playstyle.
You cant say "Just be a rifleman or swordsman" as thats what people are forced to do at the moment and thats where all the problems come from.
As for LordMaxx's worries about overpowering Dirty Fighting and Desperado, just have Master Pistoleer on its own not far off the speed cap as it is, adding more bonus to it with these lines wouldnt do much but add, as you say, more defense abilities with Dirty Fighting and more offensive with Desperado, but still remain useful when not used in conjunction with Master Pistoleer.
That we have that choice as Pistoleers is great, but making it a necessity isnt.
raz1337
Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:07 am
#32
What he said ^^^
BadgerSmaker wrote:
The point of balancing this game is is that all combat professions will be equally as useful in PvE and PvP.
In the new sysyem, ideallya pistoleer would dish out similar damage over time to a target that a rifleman or swordsman can as they are that much faster. Ideally your choice of profession would stem from your choice of playstyle.
You cant say "Just be a rifleman or swordsman" as thats what people are forced to do at the moment and thats where all the problems come from.
As for LordMaxx's worries about overpowering Dirty Fighting and Desperado, just have Master Pistoleer on its own not far off the speed cap as it is, adding more bonus to it with these lines wouldnt do much but add, as you say, more defense abilities with Dirty Fighting and more offensive with Desperado, but still remain useful when not used in conjunction with Master Pistoleer.
That we have that choice as Pistoleers is great, but making it a necessity isnt.
LordMaxx
Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:33 am
#33
BadgerSmaker wrote:The point of balancing this game is is that all combat professions will be equally as useful in PvE and PvP.In the new sysyem, ideallya pistoleer would dish out similar damage over time to a target that a rifleman or swordsman can as they are that much faster. Ideally your choice of profession would stem from your choice of playstyle.You cant say "Just be a rifleman or swordsman" as thats what people are forced to do at the moment and thats where all the problems come from.As for LordMaxx's worries about overpowering Dirty Fighting and Desperado, just have Master Pistoleer on its own not far off the speed cap as it is, adding more bonus to it with these lines wouldnt do much but add, as you say, more defense abilities with Dirty Fighting and more offensive with Desperado, but still remain useful when not used in conjunction with Master Pistoleer.That we have that choice as Pistoleers is great, but making it a necessity isnt.
Actually I dont know if we should do the same amount of damage over time because at that point all professions are vanilla and its just a matter of what you want your toon to look like...I can see us doing slightly less damage, but our ability to manipulate our opponent through states gives us an edge the rifleman would not have.
PVP would therefore become a much more organized affair, youd have pistoleers applying states, carbineers and riflemen causing damage, and melee'ers tanking. Right now it seems to be...first one to land a dizzy/kd and get a good poison applied wins.
We dont just need our specials fixed, we need a new role and that is what the combat revamp should be doing for us.
raz1337
Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:02 am
#34
LordMaxx wrote:
BadgerSmaker wrote:
The point of balancing this game is is that all combat professions will be equally as useful in PvE and PvP.
In the new sysyem, ideallya pistoleer would dish out similar damage over time to a target that a rifleman or swordsman can as they are that much faster. Ideally your choice of profession would stem from your choice of playstyle.
You cant say "Just be a rifleman or swordsman" as thats what people are forced to do at the moment and thats where all the problems come from.
As for LordMaxx's worries about overpowering Dirty Fighting and Desperado, just have Master Pistoleer on its own not far off the speed cap as it is, adding more bonus to it with these lines wouldnt do much but add, as you say, more defense abilities with Dirty Fighting and more offensive with Desperado, but still remain useful when not used in conjunction with Master Pistoleer.
That we have that choice as Pistoleers is great, but making it a necessity isnt.
Actually I dont know if we should do the same amount of damage over time because at that point all professions are vanilla and its just a matter of what you want your toon to look like...I can see us doing slightly less damage, but our ability to manipulate our opponent through states gives us an edge the rifleman would not have.
PVP would therefore become a much more organized affair, youd have pistoleers applying states, carbineers and riflemen causing damage, and melee'ers tanking. Right now it seems to be...first one to land a dizzy/kd and get a good poison applied wins.
We dont just need our specials fixed, we need a new role and that is what the combat revamp should be doing for us.
one day, I hope one of the correspondants crack and give out design doc information.....one can dream
KahnLord
Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:59 pm
#35
Hey All,
Obviously the community is in agreement that our specials are broken but I had a few ideas that are along a different path that no one seems to have mentioned.
If one of our advantages is that our weapons do different "types" of damage then how bout if we can switch weapons faster? Could be especially cool with duel-wield pistols. Kind of a quick draw ability.
and
If our role is as an in close fighters with the ability to range when things get "hairy" then how bout some movement mods? Maybe some terrain neg or a better burst run. Some better accuracy while moving. Things to get us in and out when we need to be.
PigsInSpace
Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:25 pm
#36
I don't see why it would be such an issue to get our specials revamped before the combat balance. The carbineers got that in Publish 7, why can't we get it. I'm not talking about huge, sweeping revamps. Just the common sense stuff.
Point blank area2should be identical to point blank area 1 with a higher damage and delay mod. Body shot 3 should be the same as body shot 2 with a higher damage and delay mod. There's one currently useless line of specials fixed.
Marksmanship has no specials, so there's half our profession boxes with useful specials. We really can't complain too loudly about pistol tech, so that's roughly 3/4. Add a KD to PMD2 and you've got four lines of largely working specials for very little effort.
Heck, if the devs want to get creative, fix the two disarming shots to actually disarm single targets (1) or groups (2). With the weapon switch delays that would actually be extremely useful in disorienting opponents.
I guess this is what frustrates me about pistoleer - making our specials wouldn't be that big of a deal, and I don't see any of these changes being a huge balance issue.
Master Gunfighter / Master Fistfighter / Emperor's Hand / Lovenot's Foot
NaKitNa
Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:05 pm
#37
I disagree with alloting pistoleer to PvP and not worrying about high level PvE. Lets keep in mind a good portion of this game is the high end loot. If we are not considered for high level PvE content, then we will continue to make less money than other professions and have aharder time accessing rare items (DE-10) aside from the thought that if you aren't interested in PvP go somewhere else. Pistoleers should be a viable PvE class especially when dealing with humanoid foes as well as PvP.
I don't think any classes need to be toned down.. I think the other elite combat classes need to be brought up to that same level... especially considering the newer content.
I also think higher tiers are critical to those of us who have no interest in jedi. Even if not a full elite elite class but perhaps an aiddtional few slots above master. Something to continue progression.
Datchery
Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:56 pm
#38
Mono, the way I look at it is this: Either every elite combat profession should be able to fight high end content (and it's not like there's anything besides the high end content at issue here) in a one on one way...or NO elite combat profession should be able to. That simple. They all cost the same number of points, the problem is some are clearly ridiculously better than others. Here's the deal, a master swordsman can go toe-to-toe with a SBD and win, a Rifleman can give support toanything willing to sit there for them, and beat the crap out of it.But us Pistoleers? What exactly do we have to bring to the table? At best we have light ap energy or acid. The problem with us is that for all our variety (Rifles have just as much I would reiterate) once you hit things with beyond Light Armor, the number of vulnerabilities hits rock bottom. Practically all high end content has Medium or Heavy Armor, with like 50%+ resists to everything.
No matter what you're fighting, there's no rationale besides 'style' for being a Pistoleer above anything else. We need a rationale. To that end we need a niche. Possible niches: Speed, Damage, Defenses, State Effects, Crowd Control.
We're supposed to be the Speed niche. Carbineers are meant to be State Effects/Crowd Control, Riflemen are meant to have Damage. Similar things in the melee ranks (Fencer speed, Sword damage, Pike crowd, TKA = balance of all 3). If they ever fix the speed equation, great, but if that isn't in the cards, I want more AP another damage type (preferably 'with' that medium AP) and higher defenses.
-datch
BadgerSmaker
Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:46 am
#39
Damage output is so low at the moment though its not funny.
At it stands I stack 6 health poisons on a target and start using pistoleer specials to hit the health pool, say on a Deathwatch NPC... but a Swordsman/Rifleman can take it down quicker and easier and faster even if I get the thing to half health before they start hitting it in the head.
If we aren't going to do damage on a par, what is the payoff?
Another DWB situation : Even if I could Bleed, Intimidate, Stun, Blind, Dizzy and Posture down a target with pistol specials I'm still gonna be running around "ranged tanking" stuff and not even bothering to shoot at anything that has medium/heavy armour as it's pointless, just wait till all the swordsman and rifleman in the group have finished with the current SBD and move onto the one I've kept for them.
Basically, what is going to stopPistoleers from just switching to Rifles as so many have?
Trying not to be negative but we need to be able to compete at all levels.... I'm not evengonna mention PvP as a Pistoleer. 
I suppose the payoff is the tanking ability, but theres no point being able to absorb damage if you have to get friends to dish it out for you... or maybe thats the way the game should be played eh?