Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Pistollers, kiss goodbye any and all dammage capability and destroy your DE-10s
TheWok
Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:27 pm
#27
silversaber wrote:
Pistoleer
Primary Role: Close Range Crowd Control (Attacker Control)
Secondary Role: Opponent Damage Reduction (Attacker Modifiers)
Offense: Weak(2)
Defense: Moderate(3)
Crowd Control: Strong(4)
That's better than what we have now. In CU document terms, our profession is currently:
Primary Role: Style over substance
Secondary Role: Red-Headed Stepchild
Offense: Piss Poor (1)
Defense: Laughable (1)
Crowd Control: Non-existant (0)
Seriously. It's that bad right now. The fact that pistoleer is pretty much required to take other professions to become truly viable is pathetic. As it is in the CU, we still have the style, but we're getting an actual role. We're not puredamage dealers. We never were meant to be. Look at our namedspecials. They scream out crowd control. Stopping Shot. Disarming Shot. We have a melee range KD pistol whip.
I'll keep my DE-10, thanks. And I'll be able to do more damage because of it. But since I now have a defined role (and a VERY important one, at that), I will be fine at not doing the damage of a rifleman or swordsman, because I know that without me, their chances of survival decline sharply. Dual wield is still completely viable, as is soloing content. Sure, it'll take a bit more time than a rifleman or swordsman, but it's possible.
Uthyr
Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:41 pm
#28
CommanderFarley wrote:
2 - looking at it now... pistoleer/desperado/rogue looks like a GODLY template again.
I have to agree with that. Looking at the rankings for the various profession strenghts in the new docs, doing Pistoleer/Bounty Hunteralone (without Smuggler) would give the following rankings:
Offense: Strong (4)
Defense: Strong (4)
Crowd Control:Strong (4)
That's just taking the best rankings from each profession. If they actually stack (such that two professions combined are better than the sum of either of them), then you're looking at an even more powerful template. That sounds like a very well-balanced template to me, and would be even better if you put the remaining points into Smuggler.
Here's another pistoleer template that looks good to me: Pistoleer/Commando:
Offense: Very Strong (5)
Defense: Moderate (3)
Crowd Control: Strong (4)
The more I consider the various combinations, the more enthusiastic I am becoming, even after my initial disappointment at the "crowd control" label for pistoleers.
WylotheUber
Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:40 pm
#29
Alright, look. NONE of these professions are meant to be used alone. If you pick up Pistoleer and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to compliment it, then complain about not being uber enough, you lack the brain capacity to play this game.
From what I see, Pistoleer has two major options. Pick up Smuggler and become THE dreaded sight on the battlefield, causing debuffs and status effects to mass amounts of enemies, or pick up Bounty Hunter, and become a well-rounded superior fighting force on all fronts.
Yes, Pistoleer is going to be weaker than other professions in some areas. We call it balance. Get over it. If you don't like it, just stop playing or start crafting.
kovusreturn
Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:51 pm
#30
I am completely with you silversaber. I don't understand that anyone seriously playing the Pistoleer Profession could agree with that combat role.
jwa7170
Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:55 pm
#31
Pistol always had low damage compared to carbines and rifles. The reason I used it was eye shot, and now the only "hit point" bar is the health bar. We will just have to wait to see how this pans out. If your goal is one-on-one damage, it seems that commando, rifleman, and swordsman are your choices for medium, long, and short range, respectively.
Tango88
Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:45 pm
#32
silversaber wrote:
Pistoleer
Primary Role: Close Range Crowd Control (Attacker Control)
Secondary Role: Opponent Damage Reduction (Attacker Modifiers)
Offense: Weak(2)
Defense: Moderate(3)
Crowd Control: Strong(4)
The Pistoleer is a lightweight combat specialist. They move quickly around the field of battle softening up targets and reducing their effectiveness. The damage output of the Pistoleer is relatively low but given time and careful tactical control they are still fully capable of taking out targets on their own. The Pistoleer's abilities truly shine though when combined with a well organized group.
Pistoleers are similar in function as a Pikeman. They are more potent in their ability to reduce a target's combat effectiveness and make their opponents weaker in defensive ability. While Pistoleer skills may not create a significant power increase, it can be combined with many other profession's skill abilities to create a significant increase in tactical opportunity.
Profession Mixing Tip: As a versatile close to medium ranged combatant, Pistoleer can benefit greatly from other similar ranged professions. For example, a Pistoleer can add Teras Kasi or Bounty Hunter skills for defensive abilities or Carbineer skills for increased offensive and crowd control ability.
Cut and pasted from the new CU posts.
So much for the hope of Duel Wielding and dealing any decent dammage.
Aint it exactly what you wanted a Pistoleer to be?
Could you pls provide a link to the new CU posts?
NaKitNa
Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:41 pm
#33
Pistoleer should not have been crowd control, its not their style. Carbineer would have been the more obvious choice, course thats saying all this about a computer game so take me with a grain of salt. Even though this is more or less a draft document, they really dont have the time to make any changes even if they did care about our opinions on what they are doing to pistoleer.
The biggest problem with crowd control is that whoever is crowd control is agroing a lot of things. I have been in many situations where I am using fan shot with a group and someone dies, leaving me to deal with what they are fighting, withoutthe defenses to do so. Then there is also the HUGE problem in that using area attacks will agro creatures in other rooms.
Now I will tell you how to make these crowd control professions really good in the CU is if no other professions have viable area attacks and give pistoleer some really wide ranging area hits, especially if they gave us something nice along with that, in so much as giving us a chance to not agro on a hit. If they really make other professions not capable of area hits, then we could really have something, but that means getting rid of all sorts of other abilities from other professions.
I hope to see this soon and not just guess.
The biggest problem with crowd control is that whoever is crowd control is agroing a lot of things. I have been in many situations where I am using fan shot with a group and someone dies, leaving me to deal with what they are fighting, withoutthe defenses to do so. Then there is also the HUGE problem in that using area attacks will agro creatures in other rooms.
Now I will tell you how to make these crowd control professions really good in the CU is if no other professions have viable area attacks and give pistoleer some really wide ranging area hits, especially if they gave us something nice along with that, in so much as giving us a chance to not agro on a hit. If they really make other professions not capable of area hits, then we could really have something, but that means getting rid of all sorts of other abilities from other professions.
I hope to see this soon and not just guess.
NivekAsh
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:06 pm
#34
I have no real problem with what the Devs have said Pistoleers role is going to be. It isn't what I expected, per se, but I don't mind it either. This doesn't mean I'm not concerned for how things go, I am, but I am willing to wait and see before passing judgement. And to those complaining that pistoleer will still need to be paired with something to be a viable profession, that is the idea of the curb. Only after spending all your SP will you be done, your role completely defined. Personally, I have always seen things this way, and I am looking forward to the implementation with some shots being non-weapon specific now. I think, in a way, we have an advantage in terms of how we'll adjust to these changes because we are so used to pairing our skills with BH and/or smuggler. The same could be said of carbineers, who have long paired with BH. It just made sense. For those of us who wanted to stay ranged, and not use Rifles, we have long had the option to dabble to augment our skills. It was seen as a slap in the face at the time because other professions were good without adding another on. Now, though, I see it as helping us. We are used to using skilla from professionb with weaponc that came from profession d. Now, our specials and roles are changing, but we still have the ability to, and are expected to couple our skills with a complimentary profession. This is no different than normal for most pistoleers. Yes, we have to adjust to new specials and the new manner in which our health bar increases, but that will apply to everyone regardless of profession. I can't wait to get on TC and check out all the new info.
CommanderFarley
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:31 pm
#35
btw...
for those that hate the idea of playing a crowd control class...
take your damn respec and go play swordsman or whatever else sounds fun to you. Nobody's forcing you to keep pistols.
NaKitNa
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:06 pm
#36
CommanderFarley wrote:btw...for those that hate the idea of playing a crowd control class...take your damn respec and go play swordsman or whatever else sounds fun to you. Nobody's forcing you to keep pistols.
I think the point thats being made is that they asked us what we would like to see and we gave:
Combat Role Summary: The combat role of the Pistoleer is supposed to be low damage, high speed, high defense, short range, "run 'n gunner." Most of these have been obscured by one thing or another, and we would like to see it become a reality (presently we are low damage, low speed, moderate defense, same range as everybody). There is a strong desire to have state effects and interesting attacks. That feeling stems from the fact that if all our specials do is damage, our only recourse is to pick the special that deals the most damage and spam it. In regards to Range, there is a great concern that our Ideal Range (<= 20 meters) is inside the range of Melee Lunge attacks. We aren't a melee profession, nor do we want to be. If this is the range where we will spend the majority of our time, we are worried that we will be dominated by real melee professions. When our ideal range was decided pre-launch, melee attacks were substantially shorter. When they were extended, our Ideal Range wasn't.
Grouping Summary: Pistoleers see themselves as a player who can get into the thick of things, or back out when it gets hairy. If the tank falls, he's next in line. If the tank is there, he is part supplemental damage and part situational control. While the Carbineer can provide mass crowd control, the Pistoleer is more specific and calculating. At least, they'd like to be. In the current state of the game, they aren't a damage dealer, a tank, or a crowd controller. They do all of those things a little bit, but pretty poorly.
Top 5 Recommendations: Our top 5 Issues are listed below. This is also our list of Top 5 Things we'd like to see in the CB:
1. 10 out of our 12 specials are redundant, inadequate, or broken.
2. We have no state effects or interesting attacks. All we do is damage, aside from 1 melee range knockdown and 1 bleed.
3. Our DPS is too low.
4. The speed system used by the game is completely screwed up.
5. Our defenses need help.
...And they went against it in many areas in particularly our vision of pistoleer. I think thats what shocked people, including myself. Certainly our specials will probably work as they should,whatever they may be. It sounds as if our DPS may very well still be low. We have no info on the speed system. It still doesnt sound like state effects are going to be in the pistoleer range, and looks to be that we still have moderate defenses.
Crowd control for pistols just doesnt make sense. Pistols are designed for close quarters fighting. I have trouble fully grasping crowd control from a pistol. Yeah they have no requirements to be sensible, but by all means you could make a pike the dominating long range weapon of choice, but you wouldnt because that doesnt make sense. I was really shocked that Carbines werent slotted for crowd control, considering thats pretty typically what carbines are good for (think tommy-gun, mac-10, uzi, etc).
A lot of this is people trying to fight to see a profession they love not be turned into something that merely consists of things they didnt want to put into other classes.
Hopefully people will be sensbily critical though and explain their disagreements rather than a simple "it sucks"
1manynames1
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:19 pm
#37
Pistols looks looks like fencer low damage and good speed and moves that can cause bleed. 
DiLune
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:21 pm
#38
NaKitNa wrote:
1. 10 out of our 12 specials are redundant, inadequate, or broken.
2. We have no state effects or interesting attacks. All we do is damage, aside from 1 melee range knockdown and 1 bleed.
3. Our DPS is too low.
4. The speed system used by the game is completely screwed up.
5. Our defenses need help.
1. Fixed
2. Fixed
3. We'll see what it looks like
4. Fixed
5. Fixed
The CC role of pistoleer sounds fairly interesting. We'll see what it all looks like tomorrow if the CU hits TC. There are still issues, I'm sure. But I think Pistoleer will have a desirable role within the game post CU.
btw, is that one of Phil's old lists?
BDragon
Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:06 pm
#39
silversaber wrote:
Rashasan wrote:
My responce to YOUR drivel:
1.
Quite frankley, IMO they need to replace the Swordsman position with the Pistoleer and get rid of ALL the melee professions except Jedi and maybe TKA, since there were NO swordsmen or Fencers or Pikemen in the Movies.This game is too damn like EQ as it is, and its gona be almost identical after the CU.
Mmm, ok you need to go back and review the films because you are so wrong its not even funny.
1: Fencers were in the movies if you look at the gaddi baton used by tuskens (EPI)
2: Pikeman is actually one of the most cannon profession in the game and you need your head seeing to! Liea when she comes to rescue Han is carrying a Vibro Lance... you also see a Long Vibro Axe in EPV also.
3: How the HELL is teras kasi, a profession that didnt exsist until the playstation game, StarWars: Master of the Teras Kasi (was total crap, if anyone never played it) more cannon than the other melee!?
The vibroblade, vibro lance, long vibro axe, gaddi baton and stun baton are all weapons exsisting either in the films or in EU. They have far more reference than TK.. hell, Echani should be in the game as the form of unarmed combat over TK if you really wanna base it on who has more love within EU/cannon sources (Echani is in starwars RPG as the elite unarmed prof, not TKM)
Message Edited by BDragon on 03-30-2005 08:06 PM