CUEmu - Thread Posts

Rockhurst

Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:17 am

First, I think it's very difficult to get good responses fromplayers on what the most important issues are without knowing the full system we will be in post revamp. With everything from HAM tospeed toaccuracy changing, it's impossible for us to say "this is how it should work" when the assumptions we've based that on are totally changed. At any rate, here are my thoughts...(plus a few extra's that you didn't ask for)

Our Role: Pistol skillsare included in 5 of the professions. They are the center of the SWG universe. Pistoleer + any of the other 5 professions should be the way to go.

In order of importance (1 = highest).

Accuracy #1 (We are up close after-all. We can have the second highest accuracy in the game, and I think that's how it should stay)
Speed #2
Defenses #3 (The trade-off here is that our accuracy goes way down outside of the ideal range. If you want us to fight up close, you've got to give us the defenses to withstand what comes with that)
States #4 (This is due to #2 above. One reason a player should have good state attacks would be to keep the opponent off balance - 2nd best thing to just having defenses)
Damage #5 (Low-Average damage on normal shots...extremely powerful specials. One trade-off is eliminating many of our specials. Perhaps 1 special per line + 1 or 2 Master specials. The other trade-off is #6 below)
HAM costs #6 (HAM will work totally different post revamp, I know but here's my best guess. We should have very highHAM costs for our limited but powerful specials. Ourdamage and accuracy should make those few shots count. And ourspeedand defenses should ensure our DPS keeps us kicking until our HAM is recharged and ready for the next wave of specials)
Damage Types #7 (We don't need great damage type options...we should be able to do that by picking up parts of those other professions with pistols. The ONE exception is the DE-10. Either Energy must become one of the better damage types in the game, or the DE-10 needs to become a different damage type. There's no reason the best Master level weapon is given the most common damage type.)

Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer

--Force Enhanced--

Idea for FD Counter -- Revamp Hints

HydrAG

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:14 am

#15

LordMaxx wrote:
I think the hard part about balancing pistoleer is the fact that we DO have other hybrid professions that utilize our abilities...

I think that's the core issue with Pistoleer under the current system. You have folks that are "just pistoleers" that feel shorted since three other professions use pistols and have the ability to take up pistoleer to augment their abilities. You can't just say, "Well those pistoleers need XXXX," cause you are potentially giving XXXX to Commandos, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters.

Also as stated further up its hard to say what our current problems are because, as has been promised for a year, "the combat balance is just around the bend." If pressed I'd say specials are an issue, besides that I can't comment as I believe its all up in the air and can't be addressed until, what I believe to be, the core issue is dealt with.

Hydra

Message Edited by HydrAG on 10-08-2004 02:16 PM

TBN, Kauri

Rockhurst

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:19 am

#16

LordMaxx wrote:
I think the hard part about balancing pistoleer is the fact that we DO have other hybrid professions that utilize our abilities...

When we make pistoleer a truly viable and strong standalone profession then what happens when you actually do add on abilities from Smuggler and Bounty hunter. You dont want to make it so unbalanced that adding BH or Smuggler specials to a pistoleers abilities makes them too powerful. I think the trick will be to make it so a BH/Pistoleer or Smuggler/Pistoleer or even a BH/Smuggler/Pistoleer works "differently" not just adding on power.

A BH Pistoleer could be a strong offensive version of the pistoleer and a Smuggler Pistoleer could end up being a strong Defensive version, it would change the way you fight and the way the profession works, but a straight pistoleer with no other hybrid profession could be a strong balanced defense and offense player. Just as viable and strong as the other 2 variations.

That is true, and very good points. Given the skill points left over after M. Pistoleer, we shouldthink of pistoleer in terms of a hybrid add-on profession. That's why my top 3 were accuracy, speed, and defenses. I think those are the three "fundamental" elements of being an effective pistoleer regardless of your other roles...it's what would make using a pistol fun. If you want to use pistols and dish out lots of state effects, go pistol + mbh...if you want to be a pistoleer and dish out high damage, go commando or smuggler (I realize commando doesn't do anything for pistoleers today other than a new damage type, but pretending post revamp it did). As a Bounty Hunter from the beginning, my view on pistols, carbines, etc. has always been about your style of play. I chose M. Pistoleer because using a pistol is the type of gameplay I enjoy (up close, fast, good damage, some defenses).

Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer

--Force Enhanced--

Idea for FD Counter -- Revamp Hints

MonoAtreides

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:54 am

#17

First off I would rank the order of priorities as such:

1)Speed, we are supposed to be the fastest ranged profession by far

2)States, I like to equate pistoleer to fencer and fencer has blind and dizzy attacks

3)Defense, only looking for more melee defense since we generally fight close-quartered

4)Damage types, we have stun, acid, energy, heat, kinetic, and blast with novice commando. This is not a priority. This is one of our

greatest strengths. But I sure would like to see entangle again for the heck of it.

I understand your point LordMaxx about the possibility of making pistoleer too powerful with hybrid templates but how is that compared to templates such as combat medic/rifleman or the defense stackers. I remember when I was a master fencer, teras kasi master, rogue and trickshot. Of course I never used pistols but the point is that in PvP and PvE I was almost unbeatable if I played my cards right. I really hate to talk about other professions but my point is that I am not that worried about being too powerful with a hybrid, I just want to be a factor. I think that by adding state effects ro our arsenal we will not be more powerful but more technically based relying on smarts and quickness rather than brute strength.

Paulus Atreides:Crimson Alliance

Geevo

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:57 am

#18

LordMaxx wrote:
I think the hard part about balancing pistoleer is the fact that we DO have other hybrid professions that utilize our abilities...

When we make pistoleer a truly viable and strong standalone profession then what happens when you actually do add on abilities from Smuggler and Bounty hunter. You dont want to make it so unbalanced that adding BH or Smuggler specials to a pistoleers abilities makes them too powerful. I think the trick will be to make it so a BH/Pistoleer or Smuggler/Pistoleer or even a BH/Smuggler/Pistoleer works "differently" not just adding on power.

A BH Pistoleer could be a strong offensive version of the pistoleer and a Smuggler Pistoleer could end up being a strong Defensive version, it would change the way you fight and the way the profession works, but a straight pistoleer with no other hybrid profession could be a strong balanced defense and offense player. Just as viable and strong as the other 2 variations.

I dont know if this can be pulled off unless the 2 hybrid professions become much more dependant on the pistoleer profession. And it would probably mean that certifications and other defensive/offensive factors are built into the 2 hybrid profs, but not so much that it becomes unbalanced...or overpowerful in this case.

These are just some of my thoughts on how the professions work together. This has nothing to do with the Combat balance coming up, but this is where I have been since I put my mind to pistoleer with the hybrids. I was always a pistoleer only, I took up smuggler and had alot of fun with it, and never tried BH (that is being rectified now). But Ive always tried to think of the best way to interlock our hybrid counterparts, Trying to make pistoleer a truly strong profession, but not making it too powerful when adding on the BH and Smuggler hybrids.

I agree, however if that avenue is taken then if someone is 'just a Smuggler' then it requires us to get the Pistoleer to do any real damage. As it is right now, there are no mods for unarmed or pistol ... yet requires experience of both to level. We (smugglers) have one complete line of pistol xp required (same xp as you need for one line) ... yet no speed, accuracy, or defense mods.

For a Smuggler to use /lowblow, /panicshot, or /lastditch ... we need to hit our target. But we can't hit the broadside of a barn at Master Smuggler without the Pistoleer skills. If the concern is overpowering a player, don't focus on only the professions that add to Pistoleer ... there are other elite combat professions that can be stacked. As with any profession, teh combination of 2 or 3 professions makes every situation different. Would you be so concerned about overpower if it was a Master Pistoleer, Master Carbineer, Master Rifleman?

The main point I agree with, it needs to be balanced. But everyone needs to ensure not hurting another profession to make theirs more important. For me, all 3 of my professions are important because I believe that the two combat professions improve the primary (smuggler).

Col. Weiss, Knight of the Old Republic
Ace Pilot of the starship Errant Venture
Light Jedi Elder

Col. Geevo Deem, The most elder Smuggler on Intrepid

Founding Mayor: Veteran's Retreat on Lok

BigLands

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:59 am

#19

We're pistoleers, so I'm trying to post without thinking about smuggler/Bh as well.

Firstly, I don't think the vision of us as defensive fighters works - the current system means that our state defences don't really work as they should.

Taking it right back the purpose of a pistol is pretty straightforward - it's an easy to use and carry multiple shot weapon.

So lets break it down in terms of 'real world' pistol use:

FBI figures suggest that most gun battles occur at a distance of 8m or less, with both protagonists moving (and incedentally out of breath!) and usually in poor light.

You will be hard pressed to find any miltary in the world that doesn't allow its soldiers to carry psitols in addition to other weapons

Skilled pistol marksmen learn a number of combat shooting techniques - double tapping a traget for instance

One reason that pistols are so widespread is their concealability and ease of draw

Sooooo...

Pistoleers should be THE most accurate ranged class while moving

The penalty for changing weapons should be seriously less for a pistol than almost any other weapon

Our specials make sense on the whole (IF THEY DAMN WELL WORKED AFTER A YEAR!)

Our reliance on damaging the health pool is a definate weakness that needs to be addressed

If we are to remain a defensive class then some of our specials need to change to reflect this - there should be more specials which allow us to affect our opponentes to decrease their ability to hit us - stuns and blinds leap to mind

Our bleeds are now largely useless - if the CB isn't going to address the fact that bleeds are pointless now we should definately look to get these replaces with something more useful - maybe stuns?

Pistol Melee Knockdown2 needs to work

Disarming shot - Major issue here - it's never really worked and we still have no clear idea of what it should do. My vote is for an 'immobilise' effect for say 5 seconds, while the opponent picks up their weapon - similar to being rooted in EQ.

We also need to be able to fire a hell of a lot faster to make up for our total lack of anyhting above AP1

We seriously need to see balance between ranged profs and melee profs - at the moment meleers clearly have the upper hand.

Finally, and most importantly, pistoleer needs to be a class in it's own right and not the dabblers delight.

Shaw Lands
Formerly Pistoleer & Entirely Legitimate Businessman
One Time Avatar of the Old Republic
Cancelled after waiting for the Smuggler Revamp for a year and a half.

ratlif

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:22 am

#20

I applaud your efforts at gathering information as to what we would liked fixed.
I think it will all go null and void though.

Think about it. They have to do a completely new combat system, or that is what they intended to do. So even if we get specials fixed, won't they need to be redone again for the new combat system?

Account Cancelled August 5, 2004
Reason: Lack of attention on a severly broke core game.

BaalVapula

Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:56 am

#21

I would be happy with working specials.

NBaal, Imperial Colonel - Master Pistolqueer, Rogue, Depserado, Novice CommandoN

Vapula, Imperial Colonel - Master Doctor, Master Combat Medic

Asmodeus - Master Artisian, Master Merchant

\E X O T I C\

Resources, Loot, Speeders, Powerups, Repair Tools & Smuggling Brenn, Naboo -2970, 3400

Massadonious

Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:33 am

#22

BaalVapula wrote:

I would be happy with working specials.

Ditto.

_________________________________________________________________
Garrit Darkcloud: Imperial 2nd Lieutenant. TKM/Fencer/Medic.

The next to last Liberal on Bria. "I'm not part of a redneck agenda" - Green Day

Keeping my SWG account active, but taking a WoW break until they make this game fun again...

Kevie

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:11 pm

#23

LordMaxx wrote:
I already have the current issues list that RandonB put together. And yes nothing much has changed. But I would like to hear from as many of you as would like to speak up about current issues you have with the pistoleer profession. I understand that most our specials are redundant and many not working as they should. Im trying to put together a master list of ALL problems. and prioritize them. And yes Dual Wield is on it.

Obviously Our speed is huge concern. and I agree and it should be a priority in the revamp.

The specials do need to be updated or possibly completely revamped.

To get a ton of state specials, we may end up having to give up something...same goes for damage types...we sacrifice power for damage types. But the speed formula has been messed up and has not been taken into account...

As far as other perks we actually have quite a few defenses in our favor with the state defenses and melee defense. But those should be balanced in the revamp also. How much defense should a pistoleer have? And what is the trade off?

So...States, Speed, Defenses, Damage Types how would you rank these in order of importance, #1 most important, #4 Least important.

Message Edited by LordMaxx on 10-08-2004 09:40 AM

speed, hands down, is the most important thing for the backbone of the pistoleer..... our speed to run in and out of the heat of combat, pick off several people at once, and running and gunning
the speed equation needs to be worked out, and we need more aoe/multi-target shots, and more accuracy while moving to make us the nimble pistoleers we are

defenses would be my second, because with our low dmg output, that's our asset that keeps us alive and viable in combat..... we just need some more melee and/or ranged defenses and we'll be set

damage types..... with our low AP, those extra damage types gives us a chance to penetrate and take advantage of those vulnerabilities..... but imo, we're pretty set on this one

states, i would add last, not because it is unimportant, just that it would fit last in this equation for me..... all i would really like is just an enhancement on our current state abilities..... a ranged stun, intimidate, or blind would be nice, but would be just copying another skill from other professions...... perhaps instead if there were some new states, that would be ideal to have something to call our own
one thing i would like, would be more AOE/multi-target states..... perhaps an aoe bleed, and perhaps pmd2 to have a 180* aoe and/or an extra state added to it (stun or intimidate would be ideal)

also something left off of this list, which is probably the least important, but deserves mention, is finesse
we are definately a finesse professions.... dodging, running, rolling in and out of combat, whipping someone upside the head..... we need some twirly moves, etc. but we're pretty much set on this and i'm pretty satisfied with what we have so far

Message Edited by Kevie on 10-09-2004 06:13 PM

Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-

DarthMinos

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:29 pm

#24

I agree with pretty much all of the suggestions.

If we can't have speed addressed, then I'd like to see at least a medium armor piercing weapon for Pistoleers that does not require another profession.

Theoretically, it seems like we are suppose to give up damage for speed, but what good is that if the other ranged professions can essentially match us in that department.

Rieke Mysadwy--Pre-CU Jedi (MLS, MDef, Nov Healer, 3xx2 Enh) & Professional Scoundrel, Leader of CCEF
Davaj Knyghtsyde--Bounty Hunter
Trawwl--Wookiee Commando
Grewaulk--Rodian Structures Trader

Loot and Structures Vendor at: -2634 -9, Caldara Cove on Dantooine

NaKitNa

Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:10 pm

#25

Even if broken specials are fixed the largest problem for pistoleers still exist - competing with out combat bretheren.

While many people say we shouldn't have anything above AP1 the problem remains that we have an inability to compete in high level dungeons.

While I agree you shouldnt use a pistol to be taking down rancors/krayts/etc.. the are prefectly designed for humanoids. The problem is that many NPC humanoids are still walking around with medium or higher armor ratings. Death Watch is a prime example without even taking SBD's into account.

The inequality in damage between us and say ... a rifleman... is even more pronounced because of the extra damage they do get against a Light Armor is they are using a Medium AP weapon or higher.

As we all know IRL, a pistol at close range is just as dangerous as a rifle. The rifles advantage is longer range and greater accuracy. The same is used in the SW universe. The DL-44 (the pistol han uses) is highly illegal because it took a pistol frame and crammed the innerds of a lazer rifle into it... making it devastating. DL-44's could blast through a great many things (why they decided to put it so low on the pistol cert list I don't know).

I have long supported the incorporation of specials that would give us an effective AP increase against NPC's (humanoids) only or within a certain range.This would illustrate the effectiveness of pistols in close range. so somewhere along the tree we owuld get a special that allowed us to effectively increase the AP of that shot byone category (from AP1 to AP2). Then at master gain another special that would increase that shot by two (from AP1 to AP3).

In PvP our main problem is that for us to be viable we have far too few melee defenses. This coupled with our low damage leaves us quite vulnerable.

Unless they really start making damage types highly important.. having our great variety is not very helpful. Most things are vulnerable to either stun or acid... or at least they are pretty close to whatever the greatest vulnerability is. Additionally, the pistol variety isn't "ours." It primarily comes from the Marksman portion. So while saying it is a great advantage for us, it also is a great advantage for Bounty Hunters, Smugglersand Commandoes just as much as us and really has little to do with pistoleer or our abilities.

The DE-10 is a nice addition, but we do not have the ability to even recover it for ourselves. A pistoleer is nearly useless in the DWB. Using one of our most useful abilities (fan shot) in the DWB is near a death sentence in the DWB or even the Geo caves.

So in short summary

To fulfill our role as an elite combat class, we need the ability to compete with other elite combat classes in high level content - as the combat system stands now, this will demand some avenue to deal with foes who have Armor higher than light and better melee defenses.

Message Edited by NaKitNa on 10-09-2004 08:36 PM

Na'Kit'Na
Mantese
Kettemoor
Support a Legendary/Hero Class Advancement
for Non Jedi such as this one

fishbrains

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:49 am

#26

LordMaxx wrote:
I think the hard part about balancing pistoleer is the fact that we DO have other hybrid professions that utilize our abilities...

This is NO excuse not to have pistoleer be a viable stand alone combat profession. The basic PvP system of this game is built on stacking professions to complement each other. As it stands a base master pistoleer is the lowest of the low on the PvP food chain. This needs to change. We need to be fast, low damage dealers that apply state effects, and have a variety of damage types. We are the first wave in a ranged assult. We get in, pinpoint targets and hit them. The Carbine stays behind us and cone attacks while the riflemen star in the back and slowly blast the hell out of everyone.

Joras 'Godfather' Kal'lan/Aethen Dor
Master Smuggler/Master Officer Sunrunner's Elder Smuggler

Pistoleer Archive

Thread: Issues List...time to think of Whats wrong or What you would like to see. Updated 10/08