Pistoleer Archive

---

thepunisher286 wrote:

Why? I'll tell you why. But first, master pistoleer. Then, go hunting. Take a master rifleman with you. Then youll know.

Think of it this way. Rifleman, have the strongest ranged weapons, who target a pool that is unhealable. Pistoleers, have the weakest weapons, target the health pool, which is incredibly easy to heal. Now, it gets bad when rifleman have the capability to reach very very high speeds, where as that is something the pistoleers are ment to have as thier strong point.

A couple of errors. A rifleman CAN target the mind pool. A pool which can be healed. Once the HAM changes come out though this will be much less of an issue.

Who says that Pistoleers are suppose to have speed as their strong point? Remember that the Rifle only reaches these high speeds at Master. 25% of the Riflemans speed comes from the Masters box. While a Pistoleer can hit their speed about half way thru the profession. The delaying factor comes from the specials delay mod which I mentioned needs to be tweaked.

When the game is ( supposible ) based on balance and having skill points equal where ever you spend them in combat, pistoleers, should be equaly dangerous as rifleman and carbineers. Theres NO reason why this shouldnt be. If rifleman have stronger weapons, and pistoleers have weaker weapons, then the pistols should be faster, and rifles should be slower.

Balance does not mean everyone having the same DPS. That only works if everything is also the same. Which it is not. Carabineers have AoE and status effect changes. More than say Pistoleers or Riflemen. While Pistoleers have more defenses than Riflemen or Carabineers. Balance in a game like this can not be done making everyone the same. It's the ability to cherry pick skills that makes a linear balancing impossible.

So you have to look at all aspects of the profession when trying to balance. Not just damge, but defensive abilities, and the ability to do specials.

There is no technical or realistic reason for rifles to fire slower.

Study on gladiatorial games in ancient Rome. Matches would be pitted fairly. Skinny man with a knife, vs a larger man with a heavy blunt object. Its speed vs raw power. Guess how man times the skinny man won.. half the time.

Fairness wasn't the reason they did that. It was for entertainment of the crowds. Fairness to the gladiators was not really a factor. It was decided by how entertaining it would be to the crowds.

So.. tell me if you still think there is no real basis that pistols should be faster than rifles other than a matter of opinion.

It isn't an opinion. Its a matter of fact. Same tech to design both pistols and rifles will lead to similar rates of fire. Per the SW Guide to Essential Weapons and Technology the T21 can fire once per second at it's SLOWER rate.

Im thinking of carbines when it comes to full auto fire.

Why? Can not assault rifles also fire full auto? Yes they can.

Last time I check the rifleman skills, it looked to be more of a sniper than some combat grun. Conceal, cover, conceal shot, head shot, sniper shot... doesnt sound like your standard infantry grunt. Carbineers fit the description with thier full auto attacks. Oh, lets not forget TH saying your not a grunt class.... rather a sniper/long range...

Yes Riflemen have SniperShot. But is that a true sniper skill? Last time I checked a true sniper was not limited to only shooting and killing someone that was already unconcious. That is not a true sniper skill. ConcealShot is the closest the Rifleman comes to having a sniper skill. Headshot is no different than Bodyshot. It's a target pool attack. MOBs generally have almost even HAMs so there is no difference in hitting one pool over another right now for the most part. Granted in PvP it is an issue since it's harder to get the Mind buffed, but again that is going to change with the new HAM system (hopefully).

Yes TH has said we are suppose to be snipers. And he is also dead wrong. TH being TH does not mean is always correct. Nor are the Devs always correct. Based on the limitation they have put on the combat system and said they will not change, there can not be any real snipers in this game.

What are the primary skills of the sniper? Accuracy, Range, Observation, and Camo.

Riflemen have accuracy. But what about range? When you think sniper do you not think of a rifle with a telescopic sight? Would you use a telescopic sight at ranges of 50m or less? Not likely. The magnificiation at that range will make it harder to keep a moving target in view. Remember with an optical sight you have a limited field of view. Sudden target movements are magnified and the closer the target is, the harder it is to follow while using the scope. Also one of the key points of the sniper is long range accuracy. They need this distance since the sniper team is usually outnumbered. A military sniper team (the usual standard when people think of snipers) needs the distance to also hide them. Remember the enemy can call in artillery on the sniper if the snipers position is located. Range is a snipers friend. Also the sniper know that he is more accurate at longer ranges than the typical enemy soldier. This adds to their survivability.

The ranges of 64m max are way to short for those to be truely sniper ranges. Even your basic rifle range is set up for 100 yards. That's about 40% more than the current max range. It's also a distance that is easily closed. Typcial military snipers engage at ranges of 600-700 yards.Riflemen are limited to 10% of that.

Observation. This is another primary skill for real snipers. Yet it isn't in the game. You have a radar so can see everything as is. You can target by tabbing thru the targets, at least against all MOBs.

Camo. ConcealShot is close but it only works against MOBs. Again in PvP you can be automatically seen because of the radar.

As for TakeCover. You will rarely see any Rifleman use it. Why? It doesn't seem to do anything. First it was made to be used with Sneak. Sneak was removed six months ago or so. Secondly it says it needs to be used with certain skills. That would be SurpriseShot. Another skill that is not used as it appears broken. You can use SurpriseShot while standing and without using TakeCover. So right now at least it is like having a sixth finger on your hand. It serves no real purpose.

But lets look at the arguement for being grunts. First lets look at the some of the titles. Gunner and Soldier are both infantry terms. As is sniper of course. So lets also look at skills. FlushingShot2, FlurryShot2, and StrafeShot2 are all AoE attacks. AoE attacks are NOT something that a sniper does. They are skills an infantryman does do with an assault rifle however. I'm not throwing StartleShot2 in there since it's a redundent skill. But that is also an infantrymans skill.

So we are looking at at least four skills that say infantryman. While one or one and a half that say sniper. Plus some other skills that we could argue fit in eitherdefinition.Also is not the basic infantryman a riflemen? The US Marines still call their grunts riflemen.

There is a post on the skills and evolution (abriged) of real snipers on the riflemens board. Here is a link if you are interested. It may help explain why Riflemen in SWG can not be snipers.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=60731

---

RebalMarineHunter wrote:

A thread like this shows up in every class. Everyone gets envy about what someone else has. Rifleman have ranged DB, and that is a unique and desired thing that they alone should have. If you feel you need something added to your class than use some imagination and start comming up with things. Duel weild sounds great and I'm sure there are other great ideas out there as well, people need to stop homoginizing all the classes and leave some things alone.

Ranged DB to most who have done a lot of PVP is a valuable asset to the rifleman, now, to those of you that feel its a dumb special for only one class to have, let me tell you whats dumb about pistols. Taking into consideration that we only have about 64 meters of range to work with, then we need to make 0 meters relate to 0 yards and 64 meters relate to atleast 400 yards (RL comparison here for those that think its dumb everyone does not have ranged DB, even though nearly any RL comparison in and of itself is admitadly dumb).

Pistols should not be able to hit anything past 16 meters (100 yards), rifleman should have the greatest meleeranged combatant attack with /riflebut. Rifles should have just as greatof accuracy at close range as pistols because it only gets easier to hit things as they get closer, not harder. Rifles should have the greatest ranged KD in the game for a high caliber riflelike the T-21 by design has greater KD power than an FWG-5 and it would not even need to be a special.Rifles and for that matter carbines should have the fastest shooting speeds in the game, once again, rifes and carbines are the automatic kings, not pistols.

Only penelty a Rifleman should suffer would be point blank, because it would be easier to physically block or move the rifle barrell than the pistol, but anything greater than 1 yard and the rifle will suffer no more of a penalty than a pistol.

Only advantage that a pistol should have wound be in very very close combat, it should not be a staple weapon but an auxilery weapon for indoors or when melee oponents get in striking range. Other than that, Rifles should always be faster, stronger and more accurate as well as have the best KD in the game hands down.

Now, we are not talking making this game more realistic, if that were the case CH's would need to be removed as well as many other things.

So, Rifleman keep the only ranged DB in the game, carboneers get the best area attacks in the game (although I feel sorry for them really, they have no real power right now) and pistols have great speed, nice specials, great melee defense and even a melee attack.

Now, pistols should have some things fixed and improved, no doubt at all, but don't pick on what makes rifles unique but go after some things of your own, like having pistol whip 2 do something usefull mayber, or something new altogether. And don't call specials that work dumb for any reason, especially don't compare it to real life and call it dumb, because pistols as a whole would have to re-worked in order for it to make sense and to be viable for any reason at all.

Wow, am I cranky today, sorry, just get so tired of hearing these same things over and over again when they would only damage this game further.

---

---

Raptor2k1 wrote:

I've played both a pistoleer and a rifleman, and I can quit easily state that pistoleers do NOT hit their speed cap half way through their skill tree. Like rifleman, pistoleers get the biggest speed boost from master; however, the total speed for a pistoleer 74 (79 with master marksman.) The end result is that pistols are slower, despite their low damage per shot. Another point: Most Rifleman specials are able to fire at the speed cap (or 2 seconds forevery attack at worst.) For pistoleer, this is not the case. For this argument to be valid, pistols would have to potentially be able to hit as hard as rifles.

Depends on the pistol base speed of course. On my server it isn't difficult ot find a pistol with a 2.2 speed. So at +50 you are at 1.1 . That is basically the speed cap. With a 3.0 speed pistol you are at 1.5 speed at +50. Throw on either a speed slice or a speed powerup and you can easily hit the cap.

You are right about firing specials. As I have already said though, that is a problem with the delay modifier built into the specials, not the speed of the pistoleers. The speed mods for specials for Pistoleers are much higher than they are for rifles. Drop the delay mods to around equivelent levels and a lot of the perceived speed problems disappear.

You're right, balance doesn't mean equal DPS; however, you're ignoring the fact that rifleman has higher defenses than pistoleer in addition to higher damage output (not to mention armor piercing above AP1 and up to AP3.) If you're going to utilize the defenses vs offenses argument, then carbineers should be slaughtering us all with their offensive potential. I find it interesting that you don't want to make everyone the same, yet you refuse to allow rifleman to be made a sniper profession, which would vastly differentiate it from the other ranged professions.

Lets check.

Pistol:
+105 Dodge
+7 Ranged Defense
+45 Melee Defense
+40 Dvs Stun
+40 Dvs Blind
+40 Dvs Dizzy
+50 Dvs Knockdown
+20 Dvs Posture Change

Rifle:
+80 Block
+72 Ranged Defense
+45 Melee Defense
+10 Dvs Blind
+10 Dvs Dizzy
+30 Dvs Posture Change
+10 Dvs Stun

Only in ranged defense and posture change. However in every other category the defensive abilities of the Pistoleer are greater or equal. One other thing. In case you are wondering here is what Block does. A recent test showed it seemed to work more often vs melee which makes sense. When you block you reduce damage. You also still suffer and status effect change.

Using the argument of realism, why can't wea have a Magnum style pistol that has T-21 damage and has AP3? They have handguns like that in real life.

Even a magnum would not be AP3. The T21 is the equivelent of a Barrett M82A1. That is a .50BMG round. Far more powerful than any pistol round. Also because of how (real) pistol ammo is, you have a large projectile but with less powder. That translates to a much lower velocity which is a good part of armor penetration.

Great. Did it ever occur to you that some specials might simulate multiple shots per use such as carbineer full auto single?

Yes. Which is why many Riflemen say they are Infantrymen. The weapon of the Infantry is the assault rifle. A weapon capable of full auto or burst fire. Auto fire is not exclusive to carbines or SMGs. There are even some rare pistols that fire full auto.

TH relays the word from the devs, he brought your question to them and that was their answer. You're going to have to accept the fact that that is the vision the development team is going to use when balancing rifleman.

Yes. And we are already tossing around ideas to mitigate the damage is we can't change their minds.

Rifles are the most accurate weapons in the game at 40-60m, unlike both pistols and carbines. I'd consider that long-range in terms of how this game's mechanics are. Because of the way the game is, this is as long-range as you're going to get (in the forseeable future at least.) You're going to have to accept this.

Not completely true. The most accurate weapon at long range is the T21. The second is the Republic Blaster. One thing to also look at is the accuracy curve of weapons. Look at the mod at min then the ideal range and it's mod. Then look at the mod at max range. You can build a curve. I did it long ago and it came out to about 1.7/m . That means there was a -1.7 accuracy about every 1 meter. Yes some of the weapons stats have changed since then and it is variable because of how WS make their weapons. But between min/ideal and idea/max that number was roughly correct for pistols. It was also correct for rifles for min/ideal. But not for ideal/max. There is a large spike for rifles between ideal and max. In fact it was 10X greater.

This isn't real life. This is a game. Entire planets only span about 15km in width and length (not to mention they're flat.) If you were to convert real-life dimensions to SWG game dimensions based upon scaling of the world I'd bet that those numbers would be different.

True. But if we converted to scale that also means you have pistols firing over a mile accurately.

I'd have to agree with this point, I'd like to see abilities added to the game that would let you not be seen on the radar (or at least appear as a non-targetable.) There definately isn't enough stealth with characters being able to see every enemy on the battlefield at once, even the snipers.

Great, that needs to be fixed then. I fail to see who this is used to compare how rifles should be balanced with pistols.

It wasn't meant to. It was meant to show how the prior poster was in error refering to that skill as making Riflemen snipers.

Not sure how they're going to handle this one given their stated vision. My guess is that these trees might change a bit come patch 10.

True. But there vision isn't really our vision. So though itmay be aloosing battle we are going to try to convince them that make us snipers as they want isn't realistic give the game limitations. When the Devs asked in the In Concept forum what our vision of the Rifleman was a great many of us said Infantry. Even those that said Sniper said it would require some major changes, usually to range, for that to work.

Just as I'm sure the Pistoleer board members are, the Riflemen can be very stubborn and vocal when they see something happening to their profession they feel strongly against. Yes the Devs have their vision and they have all the power. But that still doesn't mean they are always correct. The idea behind any profession is to make it fun and enjoyable for the players. If they make radical changes to something they want but have limitations that make that vision nearly impossible to implement you will see a profession become abandoned. Remember the Creature Handler profession revamp? It gutted that profession. Whether you liked them or not (I never used animal pets), it was still sad to see a profession basically disappear the way they did.

So we've seen what happens when radical changes are made completely ignoring those within a profession. Even if you dislike Riflemen, would you want to see that kind of thing happen to them? And if you still say yes, what if it was going to happen to your profession?

---

Waste93 wrote:

Yes. Which is why many Riflemen say they are Infantrymen. The weapon of the Infantry is the assault rifle. A weapon capable of full auto or burst fire. Auto fire is not exclusive to carbines or SMGs. There are even some rare pistols that fire full auto.

---

There seems to be a common misconception amongst riflemen that they should be able to run and gun because they can have assault rifles... In SWG speak an assault rifle is a carbine, its the carbineers that are the running rifle carriers.

Riflemen are the long range hunters and snipers, this is clearly the Devs take on things otherwise why do we havethe carbineerprofession?

The definition of a carbine is an automatic rifle.

If you guys don't want to be snipers change profession, the profession you want is already there, its carbineer.

lisasdarren wrote:

There seems to be a common misconception amongst riflemen that they should be able to run and gun because they can have assault rifles... In SWG speak an assault rifle is a carbine, its the carbineers that are the running rifle carriers.

Riflemen are the long range hunters and snipers, this is clearly the Devs take on things otherwise why do we havethe carbineerprofession?

The definition of a carbine is an automatic rifle.

If you guys don't want to be snipers change profession, the profession you want is already there, its carbineer.

No. The definition of a Carabineer is one that uses a carbine. So what is a carbine? A carbine is a short version of a rifle. It came into being for mounted troops originally. Later carbines were issued where size and weight were in issue. A carbine by definition can NOT be a rifle, though it can have rifling. Nor is it always an automatic. Ever seen a Winchester lever action carbine? It's not automatic. M1 Carbine from WWII was not automatic. There were even muzzle loading carbines. Those obviously weren't automatics.

Here is the official definition per Webster :

1 : a short-barreled lightweight firearm orig. used by cavalry
2 : a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush

You will notice in the second definition clearly identifies it as a supplementary militry weapon, not theprimary weapon. Those that use carbines are Airborne, Special Forces, SWAT type troops. Carbines are not general issue to the military.

So Carabineers are assault troops and special forces. A good example is the Soviet Guard units from WWII. Entire units equipped with SMG's. For the US the carbine in WWII was originally intended to issue to rear area troops but it's light weight made it popular with the main troops. However it was usually only isseud to vehicle crews (size restrictions in vehicles) and airborne troops (weight being a major factor for them). In Star Wars again we have carbines issued to assault troops. It is the standard weapon for regular Storm Troopers. Are they not assault (shock) troops?

And your definition of a Riflemen also shows how it is not possible. How can a Rifleman be a long range hunter or sniper when there is no long range?

We don't want to be snipers because it isn't possible given the limitation imposed on combat by the Devs.

Tyyylowyspetily wrote:

Waste93 you kill me man. You're still not done trolling the pistoleer boards? Hey. Look up all the terms you like. This has nothing to do with reality. This isn't real, it isn't even based on reality. It's based on Star Wars brother, where space ships make noise in space, and people do more than bend spoons with their minds, they throw whole tool sets!.Yeah. Pretty realistic stuff there. So explaining the origins of the carbine for the firearm ignorant, doesn't really make for much of a point about the state of the game and the balance issues. I'll say this. You cannot have balance as long as one of the pools damaged can be targeted, but not healed. You cannot have balance as long as some damage types are more effective than others, and only some of the classes have access to those more effective damage types. And, you cannot have balance while armor and buffs exist in their current state. Everyone will scream no! There may be much wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I may get flamed beyond charcoal briquet for this, but armor and buffs need a nerf.Armor is out of control, and buffs don't need to be God Mode to be desireable. There's no point in even having a discussion about balance until those things are adressed.Oh yeah, look up "troll" while you have that dictionary cracked open.

Troll :

: a lure or a line with its lure and hook used in trolling

: a dwarf or giant in Scandinavian folklore inhabiting caves or hills

There you go. So am I a dwarf or a giant?

All joking aside. Troll is a term frequently used but apparently poorly understood. People like to use the term just because someone posts something they don't like or in a forum they don't think the person has any business being. That is not trolling. If that was the case then andy debate could be termed trolling. Trolling is writing inflamatory posts with the reason being to rile people up. A civil debate is not trolling.

You are right about this being SW and not reality. The point of defining what a carbine is and what a Carabineer is was to correct a factual error by the prior poster.

As for armor and buffs I completely agree. I am a Wookiee Rifleman. So prior to the inclusion of Wookiee armor I could easily see the effects it had on combat. Ever try to walk thru the Genosian cave without any armor? I couldn't get to the first door alive.

The Devs made a number of missteps that made the Mind the definining factor in PvP at least. First we had stimpacks. You can use those to heal Health and Action relatively easily. So Mind was an important factor in PvP. That was why at first you saw lots of BH doing PvP. They could target Mind like Riflemen but at much lower HAM costs and those costs could be healed with stims while the Rifleman could not do the same. They could target the Mind but at a severe costs to themselves leaving them vulnerable to BH, Rifleman, or that lucky random shot that hit their Mind.

Enter armor. This had the net effect of greatly increasing the time it took to kill someone. It effectively increased their survivability by a factor of 8X - 20X or so. I ran those numbers numerous times to compare Wookiees without armor to someone in armor. 75% resists is 8X while those rare, but possible, 90% suits were 20X. But armor had one weakness and that was Stun. So even though the HAM costs were still great, the Riflemen now had a good reason for being. The Jawa Rifle. It was the most effective weapon against armor.

Then we have buffs. Again these are like sitms. It is easy to buff Health and Action (plus their secondaries). All you have to do is find a Doctor. But buffing Min is more difficult. For a complete set you have to not only find a Master Dance and Master Musician, they also have to be there and not AFK. Something I have yet to do.

So most people will buff Health and Action and either use food to buff Mind (though it isn't as great) or migrate all their stats to Mind also to bump it up.

So each step the Devs took forced the PvP towards the Mind pool only. It was a severe error on their part. Hopefully with the new HAM system that situation will right itself somewhat. **keeping fingers crossed**

Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-07-2004 11:07 AM

About the original topic I want to share MHO. A deahtblow to me is a singleshot, impalement, or beheading,which is aimed unquestionably in the heart or head--you cannot always shoot someone in the head while they're laying down a ways away because it will often be blocked by the rest of their body or at the least hard to see. Did you want to propose carbineers and gunfighters unload many rounds randomly into the unconcious victim's body--that is not a 'deathblow' to me. As for bodies which are laying with their head in view to be shot, this would require standing still and aiming for the deathblow. Riflemen should more than obviously have to be standing still or even kneeling to use some specials, snipershot being THEE most obvious. This is indeed what makes the profession, a profession, and not just a person who uses guns(along with conceal).

---

handleorsomething wrote:

About the original topic I want to share MHO. A deahtblow to me is a singleshot, impalement, or beheading,which is aimed unquestionably in the heart or head--you cannot always shoot someone in the head while they're laying down a ways away because it will often be blocked by the rest of their body or at the least hard to see. Did you want to propose carbineers and gunfighters unload many rounds randomly into the unconcious victim's body--that is not a 'deathblow' to me. As for bodies which are laying with their head in view to be shot, this would require standing still and aiming for the deathblow. Riflemen should more than obviously have to be standing still or even kneeling to use some specials, snipershot being THEE most obvious. This is indeed what makes the profession, a profession, and not just a person who uses guns(along with conceal).

I don't understand why people are grouping all rifles into one category which all must have similar speed and accuracy. Why not make sniper rifles for certain specials with slower speed and higher accuracy and some rifles which can be considered automatic with high speed and low accuracy? OR limit riflemen to only sniper-type rifles and allow carbineers to use all automatic weapons. I am ignorant I'll admit but every sniper rifle I've ever seen used to do a precision shot ARE slower. There should be precision weapons which are slower, and automatic weapons which are less accurate, and that would be based on reality would it not? Also I definately think a range past 64m should be tested if it can further differentiate between carbineers and riflemen and I love the stealth from radar idea.

Sniper rifles are not slower. They are fired slower because more care is taken to aim and the distances involved are greater. But the weapons themselves are not slower.

Your comment about specialized sniper rifles and assault rifles has been brought up before by Riflemen. Most are not opposed to that idea and actually welcome it. Our other suggestion was to limit certain specials to use by certain weapons. So all the AoE would only be done by assualt rifle while things like SniperShot and ConcealShot would be limited to sniper like rifles.

Some specials do claim that you need to be in a certain position to use. Such as SurpriseShot claims you have to be using TakeCover (and hence prone). However that is broken. You can use it from any position and without using TakeCover. You probably won't find to many Riflemen that would have a problem with limiting SniperShot to kneeling or prone.