Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Why doesnt pistol have a ranged death blow?
thepunisher286 wrote:
Sniper rifles are either Bolt action, or semi auto with the exeption of a rare few of rifles that can potentialy fire at full auto.
Sniper rifles are MADE slower. The t21 is NOT equivilent to a barret. The t-21 is ment to be an m60 as it is used like that in the sw universe, NOT a long range sniper rifle. in some cases, it WEAKER than the e-11.
Again, sniper rifles are NOT made slower. Have you ever fired any? I have four in my collection. All are from WWII and all in working condition. Yes I've fired mine. The first is a British No4 MkI(T). It is a bolt action. I also have a regular British No4 Mk1*. So we have the same weapon. I can take the bolt from one and place it in the other. Same with just about every piece on that rifle. I also have a German K43. It's a semiauto. There is no difference beteween a scoped K43 and an non scoped K43. The fire at the same rate. Same with my Garand and my SVT40. Putting a scope on a rifle does NOT suddenly make it cycle slower. Nor does it somehow make the bolt move slower.
Something to keep in mind. Most military sniper rifles are just variations of regular issue rifles. Every example from WWII is this way. Even modern day this is the case. One noticeable exception is the US. The US uses a reworked hunting rifle as their standard sniper rifle. But the Germans have the PSG1 which is a reworked H&K. The Eastern Bloc was using the Dragunov. That is a reworked AK. Israel has the Galil sniper.
The only difference usually between a regular rifle and a sniper is this. Add a scope, add a heavier (or accurized) barrel, and bed the stock (if needed), and in the case of 5.56mm rifles you bump it up to a larger caliber, usually around a .308 . You usually do some trigger work to make it smoother too and remove the selector switch (usually). But other than that there are few differences between say a sniper rifle and the assualt rifle it is based off of. Most of it is cosmetic differences. But if I had an M21, took off the scope, and put it next to an M14. Would you be able to tell the difference at a glance? What about the scoped K43 and a non scoped K43? How about a 1903A4 and the 1903A3 if the scope was removed from the A4?
As for the T21. I compare it to the Barrett because of its AP. Personally I see it as a combination between the old BAR and the Barrett. A large heavy rifle for light squad support. But I also don't think it's an M60. Simple reason. According the the SW Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, the T21 can fire once a second. It's a heavy rifle. But with a cyclic rate of 1 shot per second that is rather slow to say it's a machine gun. BTW that rate of fire is the slower of its speed and is the RoF when using the backpack generator that give limitless ammo but has a slow cooling rate limiting it to once per second. Not sure where you got the weaker than E11 comparrison. But the SW Guide I mentioned above also stated that the T21 is one of, if not the, most powerful man portable weapons out there. Here is the direct quote of part of that. "The power behind the T-21's blaster bolts is amazing, being known to penetrate infantry armor, personal forcefields and even armor plating of light combat vehicles. "
So if you have information that contradicts that please post it and let me know where you got it from. I'm curious about it.
A Rifleman posted awhile back about a number of weapons that are in the EU. Of which only the T21 is in the game so far. If you are interested here is the link. Unfortunately he only listed rifles. I would have liked info on pistols and carbines too. Maybe a Pistoleer has access to this book and will post the info. It makes for great background info and good place to start in pushes for new weapons being added to the game.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=rifleman&message.id=19102&page=1
If you guys get to be "grunts" just because of your F#^#ing title, then maybe the smugglers should... gee i dont know.. smuggle?
Smugglers also need to Smuggle. As a Master Smuggler I can say we very much would like to see that ability. That has pretty much been the Smugglers number one complaint. They want to be able to do what they are suppose to.Rifleman aren't saying they should be grunts just because of their title, it's because of their skills, and the impossibility of Riflemen to be snipers given the limitations the Devs have put in. So Rifleman want to be able to do what they can withing their limitations. That is be infantry.
What about commandos? Commandos are NOT heavy weapon specailists, rather elite combat troops that raid crap ( look up british commandos WW2, or anything in starwars that mentions commando EXEPT this game. So if you guys get to be the standard dmg dealer long ranged because of your so called titles... then i demand my DC-17m assault rifle and uber specials for commando....
Commandos are misnamed in the game. In the game they are Heavy Weapon specialists. Based on their equipment and their specials.Just as Rifleman are Infantryman based on their equipment and most of their specials.If they are suppose to be Commandos then they need a complete overhaul for Commandos are just as you stated. Raiders. But if SWG is going to keep them the way they are, they need to be renamed. They also need a complete rework of their weapons. Seeing a Commando with anything other than a flame thrower is an oddity.
true_Kieran wrote:
Waste93 I'm curious, why do you riflemen still come over to our forum? Are you afraid we might cry "nerf the riflemen" and devs actually listen to us? Now would you mind returning to your own forum and staying there? We are pretty sick here of that rifleman crap. I've read some or your posts here and in the rifleman forum, you seem to think by drawing the lines to modern military soldiers with their assault guns for rifleman to actually be the strongest in ranged combat, well I don't think so, and I'm pretty sure about all the carabineers, pistoleers and even some of the rifleman themselves will agree with me. Now if you don't want us to yell for nerfing you, how about stopping to annoy us?
What makes this your forum and not ours? Are you afraid of some debate? Afraid that there may be another side of the story? Or that some of the information you have is incorrect?
The reason to draw lines between military soliders and rifleman is that is a basis we have. All professions in this game have ties to the real world. It's how we got the names and skills for those professions. Architects in RL build houses and manufacturing plants. They do so in the game. Weaponssmiths in the game build weapons. They do in RL too.
Do not Pistoleers also draw from RL? Isn't the call for dual wield (which I support) based on the RL ability to fire two pistols at the same time? How do you think of Pistoleers? As Gunfighters maybe? Are not Gunfighters a RL comparison to those pistol users in the Old West?
No my point in comparing Rifleman to real military soliders is simple. Rifles are the general issue weapon for the Infantry. All Infantryman are also Rifleman.
If you have read some of my posts then you may have read how I think the game needs to be balanced. That isn't the same as saying that I'm calling for Rifleman to be the strongest in ranged combat. For it simply isn't true. Based on raw damage the strongest should actually be the Heavy Weapon Specialists (Commandos).
Just for some information. I'm also a Pistoleer and Smuggler besides being a Rifleman. Or are you implying that because I'm also a Rifleman I have not right to be here? Considering two of my combat professions require pistol XP.....
I'm not afraid of a debate, I just don't see much debating. Actually funny that you are pistoleer and smuggler too, you don't sound like someone who has played this profession here to me, and I can't recall more then a few posts in the smuggler forum. But this brings me to another question... why? Why do you have two ranged professions? Just wanted to try more? Maybe one for damage and the other for more defenses, which could be why you insist on pistoleer being a defensive profession? Please tell me, I'm curious.
And by the way reality is not a good base for this game my friend, a 10 m melee knockdown is just as unreal as lightsword and house that's build out of a deed, this is a fantasy world if this rings a bell to you. Just the fact that a lightsword exists should tell you that nothing here focuses on real weapon systems.
And I didn't say you have no right to be here, as a pistoleer, you have, however since you speak more for the riflemen than for the pistoleers in this forum, I'm not so sure you are liked here too. How about some suggestions on how to make this profession better than telling us why rifleman should have high damage over and over again? Try at least once not to praise your rifles in here, you have another forum for that, maybe then we can debate.
KzinKiller wrote:
I wouldn't be so unhappy with the Rifle ranged-DB if it were 'balanced' (I can barely bring myself to use the word) with some countervailing negatives ....
1. You shouldn't be able to use it while in motion
2. There should be a huge movement speed penalty for a Rifleman using *any* special attack ... flat out, a running Pistoleer should run circles around a moving Rifleman.
3. Accuracy penalties are just not severe enough. It should take a miracle for a moving Rifleman to hit you with a special attack ... or every special should literally cause them to stop and kneel before firing.
But ... heck, the PvP/class interactions are so 99% hosed in the game at the moment, it's like complaining about a broken ice-machine on the Titanic.
You actually sum up my feelings rather well here. I remember when the justification for ranged db for rifleman was the fact that they used to be the "delicate flowers" of combat when just about any 10 year old with a stick could incapped and db a Rifleman if they could get close enough to them. Not the case now with all the stacking going on.
To be honest I don't want to see any class get nerfed at all. I would just really sincerely like to see this class get back to being a real threat in PvP. Heck I would be happy if they just reduced the old nerf on our damage min/max. 
pnjpenguin wrote:
I like only Riflemen having a ranged DB, it keeps their class a bit unique. Pistoleer should have something unique of our own, which may be dual wheild.
how the *edit* do you figure dual wield is as good as ranged DB?? are you nuts??????!!??? IF we get dual wield, you nkow they will still find a way to *edit* it up. they'll give us one in each hand but we will still fire one gun per second or somethin like that. i personally think it is unbalancing for riflemen to DB from range. if you give any one class this ability it should be BH. im not one but if any one class sides jedi is unbalanced it should be BH. it takes the most skill points and if everyone is gonna **edit** about timeline continuity and *edit* BH are the best of the best of the best ranged/melee combat specialists. Even Boba, in the EU, was a master of both ranged and hand-to-hand combat, as well as poisons and a master of any weapon. no one should be able to stand against a good BH.
in closing, i don't think anyone should have a ranged DB, but if given to anyone besides BH it should go to all ranged classes.
true_Kieran wrote:
I'm not afraid of a debate, I just don't see much debating. Actually funny that you are pistoleer and smuggler too, you don't sound like someone who has played this profession here to me, and I can't recall more then a few posts in the smuggler forum. But this brings me to another question... why? Why do you have two ranged professions? Just wanted to try more? Maybe one for damage and the other for more defenses, which could be why you insist on pistoleer being a defensive profession? Please tell me, I'm curious.
Actually I have three ranged professions. Two elites (Rifle and Pistol) and what I call a hybrid secondary combar profession (Smuggler). If you are wondering what a hybrid primary would be, that would be Commando and BH.
But I think you thinking of it as two is similar to the reason I have. As per your sig you are also a Smuggler and Pistoleer. Why? My reasons are probably similar to your own. As you know a Smuggler has two branches that require Pistol XP, Underworld and Dirty Fighting. However the Smuggler does not get any accuracy or speed mods other than those gained from the Pistol branch in Marksman. Those mods are not nearly good enough if you want to enjoy any of the more advanced "content" in the game. Taking Pistoleer with Smuggler is almost mandatory.
No I did not take Pistoleer for the defenses. If I wanted to do that I would have taken one of the melee professions such as Fencer or TKA.
I argue that the Pistoleer is more defensive because of how I view how to balance. That is everyone as having a role (circular balancing). To that I see as the Pistoleer as the one that can resist status effects best of the ranged professions. They should also be more of an anti-melee profession (when in close) in my view. That is how I see their role. To that end I see it as why they have some of the best defenses of the range professions. They have the best defenses vs status effects. They are tied for best melee defense. So why wouldn't they be a defensive profession?
And by the way reality is not a good base for this game my friend, a 10 m melee knockdown is just as unreal as lightsword and house that's build out of a deed, this is a fantasy world if this rings a bell to you. Just the fact that a lightsword exists should tell you that nothing here focuses on real weapon systems.
Partially true. Think about a 20m lunge that melees can do. That is 60feet. We know that isn't realistic at all. But even though this is a fantasy world we can make some conclussions based on real world.
Lets look at your lightsword example. Can I not safely assume that it is a sword which means it's a melee weapon? I base that of the word useage and by the fact that is what a sword is in the real world. That is basing that off of a real weapon system. By saying it's a "light" weapon I can also assume that the blade section of the sword is probably made of energy or is energized. Or it could be a reference to its weight. Again that is based off of real world word useage. I can also assume the blade is is probably over a foot in length. If it was shorter you probably would have said "lightdagger".
If I make up a weapon. Lets say the Q254 Sonic Pistol. What would you conclude from that? First that it's a weapon based on sound. Secondly since I said pistol you would conclude that it is small, probably easily concealable, probably fairly short range. Why would you conclude that? Because you base that off of my word pistol and you get those views based on what real pistols are.
Just if I said Q254 Sonic Rifle you would assume it is fairly large and has a stock. Again that is from the real world.
And I didn't say you have no right to be here, as a pistoleer, you have, however since you speak more for the riflemen than for the pistoleers in this forum, I'm not so sure you are liked here too. How about some suggestions on how to make this profession better than telling us why rifleman should have high damage over and over again? Try at least once not to praise your rifles in here, you have another forum for that, maybe then we can debate.
Yes I have been on the Rifleman board longer. I have been a Rifleman longer. By the time I took up both Smuggler and Pistoleer I was deeply involved in the Wookiee armor issue. So I wasn't posting much in any other board at the time. Followed by a vacation and the fact I like to spend some time reading boards before I usually start posting.
I have made some suggestions to improve Pistoleer. First there is my circular balance. Which I think is important. You have to define the role of the professions and how they relate to each other before you can fix them. You have to know what you are working towards.
I've also suggested a system for critical hits. I posted it in the Core Systems but here is a brief recap. There are 18 skill boxes per elite profession. For every 3-4 boxes in an elite profession you get a 1% chance to get a critical hit. What that does is at Master your max chance would be 5%. If you get a critical hit you get a damage multiplier. What the multiplier would be would be variable. Lets say 60% for 2X, 30% for 3X, and 10% for 4X. It would add a random element to combat and I think make it more interesting. Others have also suggested if we are going to have critical hits we also need critical misses. However it makes no sense for that to increase as you get more skillful. So it was suggested that there was a flat 2-3% chance of critical miss. A crit miss would either reduce damage by 50% or cause a random status effect to the player. KD would not be a possibility though. One thing. The chances percent would not stack. It maxs out at 5%. So you wouldn't have to worry about someone being able to bump it up to 10-15% by stacking templates such as Master TKA, Smugger, and Pistoleer. Keep it rare so people come to depend on it but make it interesting when it does happen. The RPG stories this could help would be worth the effort alone I think. Just think "I was going down, I was almost dead. The Night Sister was moving in for her killing blow. Exhasted I shakily raised my pistol towards her. Blood flow from my multiple wounds I was on one knee. Defiant to the end. The Night Sister laughed as she moved in with her lance for the kill. I fired. The Night Sister staggered, a look of utter disbelief on her face. She crumbled to the ground, my shot had cleaved her evil heart in twain. I staggered from her, desperate to find medical attention". Or in other words the player was low on HAM and about to die. They got off a shot and got a crit hit and a great damage multiplier and dropped the NS.
I've also suggested changing MOB HAMs. Right now they are pretty much all even. So the ability to target a pool is of little value. Make MOB class determine how it's pool points are distributed. So you would have some MOBs where their weakpoint would be Health, while for others it would be Action, and others Mind. I think I came to 40-45% for the primary stat, 30-35% in the secondary, and the rest in the tertiary. The percents I have could probably be tweaked a bit as I'm still undecided on them.
Those two examples I think help the Pistoleer but are not specific to that profession. But lets look at specific Pistoller suggestions I have made so far. First I've suggested reducing the delay multiplier on specials. A large part of the perceived speed problem I think for Pistoleers is that their specials have rather high delay multipliers. This is what causes them to be less able to use specials at the cap. Carabineers suffer that same problem. So reduce the multiplier and it goes towards resolving this.
I've also suggested improving the defenses of the Pistoleer. They need a bump to ranged defense. I'd also increase all the defenses vs status effects. This will be of great help if they also increase the frequency of MOBs actually using status effect attacks. Especially "intelligent" types such as NPCs. Personally I think all NPCs need a revamp. To make them hard the Devs took the easy road of giving them high armor, resists, and HAM. Yet lets look at continuity. A playe buffed can have stats at about 3k. They are restricted to light armor. Yet some guy, of the same species, in a robe can be heavy armor with 150k HAM? Doesn't make lots of sense. By doing that it made the only real way to take them out raw damage. The Riflemans advantage while negating the advantages of the other professions. There are others ways to make them difficult. Give them higher defenses instead of armor and ungodly resists. Same net effect pretty much. Lower the HAM and have the NPCs use special attacks frequently. Those that have Force Powers should also use them frequently. How does that help the Pistoleer. Simple. The NPCs will depend on doing status effects as part of their damage abilities. Something the Pistoleer has a better chance of surviving. Also lowering the HAM reduces the damage disparity.
Next would be specials. I'm not a Master Pistoleer so I haven't experienced all the specials. But it seems there are a large number of pretty much useless ones. You can help give me insight here. How many specials are actually useful? For example is there really a use for the PointBlank skills or the MeleeDefense skills? Does anyone actually use them? If not they need to either be made useful or replaced with useful ones. I've seen lots of Pistoleers in combat. But it's usually the same specials. In Rifleman we are pretty well off in that regard. We only have three broken or useless skills. Those are SurpriseShot, StartleShot1, and StartleShot2. Pistoleer seems to be rather bad off in that regard. Like I said though, I want to know more before I make some suggestions. DualWield would be a great addition and I know is something you guys want. But how do we want it to work? Should it be it's own special? Or should it be say an innate ability that increases damage while reducing accuracy? Say something like Aim that you would queue and would go off with another specials. So you would have DualWield followed by FanShot lets say. It would act like an anti-Aim in that it would slightly reduce accuracy (firing two pistols at a target is difficult, I've tried this in RL), but would act as a damage multiplier for the attack that lands. I'm sure both versions have their ups and downs.
But lets also remember the original post here. It was a call to either remove the Riflemans ability to do a ranged DB or giving that ability to all the ranged professions. If you have read my prior posts one thing should be obvious. I don't believe in infringing on other professions abilities or skills that make them what they are. When the BH were asking for free Medic skills I went and argued against it. When Riflemen asked for a ranged KD I argued against it. When I suggested the Crit Hit system someone suggested I not only make status effects for Crit Miss but also a chance for a Crit Hit. I said no because causing status effects on others is the domain of certain professions such as BH and Carabineer. Even at a small chance of causing themI didn't want to infringe on that ability of those professions. All professions must have abilities that make them unique. Otherwise we just have the same profession with different graphics.
The closest I've probably coming to violating this is when I made a suggestion for SniperShot. I brought up the idea of making the SniperShot useful in PvE also. As I, and many others, rarely PvP it would be nice to have a use for this high level skill in PvE. The suggestion was to make SniperShot, in PvE only, act as a HeadShot2 and give it a status effect. Either Dizzy (which Rifleman can already do) or Blind. Though it does make sense since getting hit in the head could easily make one dizzy or cause temporary blindness (head wounds tend to bleed heavily), since a Rifleman can not Blind it could be seen as infringing on other professions that can cause it.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-08-2004 07:17 AM
Waste93 wrote:
Actually I have three ranged professions. Two elites (Rifle and Pistol) and what I call a hybrid secondary combar profession (Smuggler). If you are wondering what a hybrid primary would be, that would be Commando and BH.
The sad thing is, my friend, even though two lines of smuggler require pistol xp, this profession is per definition nota combat profession, at least not for the devs.
But I think you thinking of it as two is similar to the reason I have. As per your sig you are also a Smuggler and Pistoleer. Why? My reasons are probably similar to your own. As you know a Smuggler has two branches that require Pistol XP, Underworld and Dirty Fighting. However the Smuggler does not get any accuracy or speed mods other than those gained from the Pistol branch in Marksman. Those mods are not nearly good enough if you want to enjoy any of the more advanced "content" in the game. Taking Pistoleer with Smuggler is almost mandatory.
No I did not take Pistoleer for the defenses. If I wanted to do that I would have taken one of the melee professions such as Fencer or TKA.
I argue that the Pistoleer is more defensive because of how I view how to balance. That is everyone as having a role (circular balancing). To that I see as the Pistoleer as the one that can resist status effects best of the ranged professions. They should also be more of an anti-melee profession (when in close) in my view. That is how I see their role. To that end I see it as why they have some of the best defenses of the range professions. They have the best defenses vs status effects. They are tied for best melee defense. So why wouldn't they be a defensive profession?
Actually me being pistoleer has nothing to do with me being smuggler. When I started this game I looked at the professions, I knewI would take on master pistoleer, because I like pistols. Yet I wanted a real "job" andsince I would be neutral (playing daoc since Beta made me pretty tired of pvp), my job wouldn't be a soldier andI didn't want to be just a "hired gun". As a jobI consider Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, the crafting professins, the entertainer professions and the medical professions. Since I knewI would have to fight alot, I wanted a job that involves combat (thought of smuggler as a combat profession too by then). This left Bounty Hunter and Smuggler as choice, since Master Bounty Hunter and Master Pistoleer is not possible and I liked to rp as a Smuggler, I chose this way. The fact that smuggler had pistol specials was a lucky, meanwhile necessary coinsidence. And by the way, taking a character builder makes it clear that since you are smuggler and rifleman, it's much easier to get more defenses from pistoleer than from fencer you would have to spend more skill points then are left to get all the defenses, and TKA has good melee defense but not so many against knockdown, dizzy etc. which you lack at as a rifleman.
Yes I have been on the Rifleman board longer. I have been a Rifleman longer. By the time I took up both Smuggler and Pistoleer I was deeply involved in the Wookiee armor issue. So I wasn't posting much in any other board at the time. Followed by a vacation and the fact I like to spend some time reading boards before I usually start posting.
I have made some suggestions to improve Pistoleer. First there is my circular balance. Which I think is important. You have to define the role of the professions and how they relate to each other before you can fix them. You have to know what you are working towards.
I've also suggested a system for critical hits. I posted it in the Core Systems but here is a brief recap. There are 18 skill boxes per elite profession. For every 3-4 boxes in an elite profession you get a 1% chance to get a critical hit. What that does is at Master your max chance would be 5%. If you get a critical hit you get a damage multiplier. What the multiplier would be would be variable. Lets say 60% for 2X, 30% for 3X, and 10% for 4X. It would add a random element to combat and I think make it more interesting. Others have also suggested if we are going to have critical hits we also need critical misses. However it makes no sense for that to increase as you get more skillful. So it was suggested that there was a flat 2-3% chance of critical miss. A crit miss would either reduce damage by 50% or cause a random status effect to the player. KD would not be a possibility though. One thing. The chances percent would not stack. It maxs out at 5%. So you wouldn't have to worry about someone being able to bump it up to 10-15% by stacking templates such as Master TKA, Smugger, and Pistoleer. Keep it rare so people come to depend on it but make it interesting when it does happen. The RPG stories this could help would be worth the effort alone I think. Just think "I was going down, I was almost dead. The Night Sister was moving in for her killing blow. Exhasted I shakily raised my pistol towards her. Blood flow from my multiple wounds I was on one knee. Defiant to the end. The Night Sister laughed as she moved in with her lance for the kill. I fired. The Night Sister staggered, a look of utter disbelief on her face. She crumbled to the ground, my shot had cleaved her evil heart in twain. I staggered from her, desperate to find medical attention". Or in other words the player was low on HAM and about to die. They got off a shot and got a crit hit and a great damage multiplier and dropped the NS.
I've also suggested changing MOB HAMs. Right now they are pretty much all even. So the ability to target a pool is of little value. Make MOB class determine how it's pool points are distributed. So you would have some MOBs where their weakpoint would be Health, while for others it would be Action, and others Mind. I think I came to 40-45% for the primary stat, 30-35% in the secondary, and the rest in the tertiary. The percents I have could probably be tweaked a bit as I'm still undecided on them.
Like you said, this is not Pistoleer specific, that's general combat.
Those two examples I think help the Pistoleer but are not specific to that profession. But lets look at specific Pistoller suggestions I have made so far. First I've suggested reducing the delay multiplier on specials. A large part of the perceived speed problem I think for Pistoleers is that their specials have rather high delay multipliers. This is what causes them to be less able to use specials at the cap. Carabineers suffer that same problem. So reduce the multiplier and it goes towards resolving this.
I've also suggested improving the defenses of the Pistoleer. They need a bump to ranged defense. I'd also increase all the defenses vs status effects. This will be of great help if they also increase the frequency of MOBs actually using status effect attacks. Especially "intelligent" types such as NPCs. Personally I think all NPCs need a revamp. To make them hard the Devs took the easy road of giving them high armor, resists, and HAM. Yet lets look at continuity. A playe buffed can have stats at about 3k. They are restricted to light armor. Yet some guy, of the same species, in a robe can be heavy armor with 150k HAM? Doesn't make lots of sense. By doing that it made the only real way to take them out raw damage. The Riflemans advantage while negating the advantages of the other professions. There are others ways to make them difficult. Give them higher defenses instead of armor and ungodly resists. Same net effect pretty much. Lower the HAM and have the NPCs use special attacks frequently. Those that have Force Powers should also use them frequently. How does that help the Pistoleer. Simple. The NPCs will depend on doing status effects as part of their damage abilities. Something the Pistoleer has a better chance of surviving. Also lowering the HAM reduces the damage disparity.
Yes they did chose the easy way, but I'm pretty sure the won't change, we have a much higher chance to get fixed if we focus on the current system then suggesting a completely new one.
Next would be specials. I'm not a Master Pistoleer so I haven't experienced all the specials. But it seems there are a large number of pretty much useless ones. You can help give me insight here. How many specials are actually useful? For example is there really a use for the PointBlank skills or the MeleeDefense skills? Does anyone actually use them? If not they need to either be made useful or replaced with useful ones. I've seen lots of Pistoleers in combat. But it's usually the same specials. In Rifleman we are pretty well off in that regard. We only have three broken or useless skills. Those are SurpriseShot, StartleShot1, and StartleShot2. Pistoleer seems to be rather bad off in that regard. Like I said though, I want to know more before I make some suggestions. DualWield would be a great addition and I know is something you guys want. But how do we want it to work? Should it be it's own special? Or should it be say an innate ability that increases damage while reducing accuracy? Say something like Aim that you would queue and would go off with another specials. So you would have DualWield followed by FanShot lets say. It would act like an anti-Aim in that it would slightly reduce accuracy (firing two pistols at a target is difficult, I've tried this in RL), but would act as a damage multiplier for the attack that lands. I'm sure both versions have their ups and downs.
Actually Pistoleer has only3 really useful specials. These are Fan Shot, Health Shot 2 and Pistol Melee Defense 1,all the others a either broken or useless.For example, Body Shot 3 has a 2.4 delay mod and a 2.5 damage mod, yet Health Shot 2 has a 1.9 delay mod and a 3.0 damage mod + it adds a bleed, why would you use Body Shot 3? At Master I never made the damage Fan Shot does with any of the point blank attacks at close range. Multiple Target Shot seems to stop working as soon as something gets out of sight, which happens everywhere, the mob just has to get behind a tree. Disarm Shot is still the most useless I've ever seen, not only doesn't do it anything it from what is sounds like, it only has higher damage against a lair, yet still, as Master I even there do more damage with Fan Shot or Stopping Shot. Yet I still have to figure out what Double Tab supposed to be, since it seems to be just once more low damage shot. And the reason why I consider Stopping Shot broken is because it simply has no affect that would justify it's name, it's the highest damage shot of pistoleer, yet smugglers Last Ditch does more damage at the same delay and even has a stun effect.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Dual Wield. I used tosay "If you are really good with a weapon, you won't need more than one of it to kill". But since it may be useful to us, I don't complain. However, firing two pistols at a target is one thing, but try it with moving, you will have a better chance to make an elephant dance than to hit with both guns.
But lets also remember the original post here. It was a call to either remove the Riflemans ability to do a ranged DB or giving that ability to all the ranged professions. If you have read my prior posts one thing should be obvious. I don't believe in infringing on other professions abilities or skills that make them what they are. When the BH were asking for free Medic skills I went and argued against it. When Riflemen asked for a ranged KD I argued against it. When I suggested the Crit Hit system someone suggested I not only make status effects for Crit Miss but also a chance for a Crit Hit. I said no because causing status effects on others is the domain of certain professions such as BH and Carabineer. Even at a small chance of causing themI didn't want to infringe on that ability of those professions. All professions must have abilities that make them unique. Otherwise we just have the same profession with different graphics.
The closest I've probably coming to violating this is when I made a suggestion for SniperShot. I brought up the idea of making the SniperShot useful in PvE also. As I, and many others, rarely PvP it would be nice to have a use for this high level skill in PvE. The suggestion was to make SniperShot, in PvE only, act as a HeadShot2 and give it a status effect. Either Dizzy (which Rifleman can already do) or Blind. Though it does make sense since getting hit in the head could easily make one dizzy or cause temporary blindness (head wounds tend to bleed heavily), since a Rifleman can not Blind it could be seen as infringing on other professions that can cause it.
In this thread you asked if we would really want to give up one of our specials for it. I'm one of those who focus on PvE, but still, looking at all the broken specials I would give one of them away with pleasure to get something like that. I may only use it once in my entire SWG career, but that's already once more(form the day onI used them to see the effect)than I use the other specials.
true_Kieran wrote:
The sad thing is, my friend, even though two lines of smuggler require pistol xp, this profession is per definition nota combat profession, at least not for the devs.
Agreed. Especially after the last nerf to delay attacks really hurt the Smuggler. But since it does have combat specials I am including it. Though as not a pure combat profession, hence my calling it a hybrid secondary.
Actually me being pistoleer has nothing to do with me being smuggler. When I started this game I looked at the professions, I knewI would take on master pistoleer, because I like pistols. Yet I wanted a real "job" andsince I would be neutral (playing daoc since Beta made me pretty tired of pvp), my job wouldn't be a soldier andI didn't want to be just a "hired gun". As a jobI consider Bounty Hunter, Smuggler, the crafting professins, the entertainer professions and the medical professions. Since I knewI would have to fight alot, I wanted a job that involves combat (thought of smuggler as a combat profession too by then). This left Bounty Hunter and Smuggler as choice, since Master Bounty Hunter and Master Pistoleer is not possible and I liked to rp as a Smuggler, I chose this way. The fact that smuggler had pistol specials was a lucky, meanwhile necessary coinsidence. And by the way, taking a character builder makes it clear that since you are smuggler and rifleman, it's much easier to get more defenses from pistoleer than from fencer you would have to spend more skill points then are left to get all the defenses, and TKA has good melee defense but not so many against knockdown, dizzy etc. which you lack at as a rifleman.
Kind of similar to my reason for being a Rifleman. I like rifles, I collect them, though I also have some pistols. I was also a Master Arch. But crafting is time intensive. Finding resources, harvestor maint, moving the harvestors, etc. As a casual player it was taking to much of my time so I decided to go combat. I was interested in Smugglers because of slicing. Got into that and also Pistoleer for the reason I alreayd stated.
Like you said, this is not Pistoleer specific, that's general combat.
Yes. But those idea also hlep the Pistoleer.
Yes they did chose the easy way, but I'm pretty sure the won't change, we have a much higher chance to get fixed if we focus on the current system then suggesting a completely new one.
One problem with that. The currect system is going to be radically changed with the combat revamp shortly. A system we know little about. So throwing out lots of possible ideas is worth doing. Since they are redoing the system anyways, coming up with something they could include isn't a bad idea.
Actually Pistoleer has only3 really useful specials. These are Fan Shot, Health Shot 2 and Pistol Melee Defense 1,all the others a either broken or useless.For example, Body Shot 3 has a 2.4 delay mod and a 2.5 damage mod, yet Health Shot 2 has a 1.9 delay mod and a 3.0 damage mod + it adds a bleed, why would you use Body Shot 3? At Master I never made the damage Fan Shot does with any of the point blank attacks at close range. Multiple Target Shot seems to stop working as soon as something gets out of sight, which happens everywhere, the mob just has to get behind a tree. Disarm Shot is still the most useless I've ever seen, not only doesn't do it anything it from what is sounds like, it only has higher damage against a lair, yet still, as Master I even there do more damage with Fan Shot or Stopping Shot. Yet I still have to figure out what Double Tab supposed to be, since it seems to be just once more low damage shot. And the reason why I consider Stopping Shot broken is because it simply has no affect that would justify it's name, it's the highest damage shot of pistoleer, yet smugglers Last Ditch does more damage at the same delay and even has a stun effect.
Thanx for the info. Like I said earlier, drop some of the delay modifiers for specials. As for BodyShot3. That is a problem with all the level 3 pool targeting specials. It's more cost effective to use the level 2 abilities. That has been a complaint for a long time. As for MutliTarget Attack. There have been some issues with AoE attacks. The issues seem to be related more to the AoE abilities than to any specific special. I think there AoE system is buggy and it keeps creeping up at various times. StoppingShot should be a delay attack. But since the Devs of nerfed this ability they are unlikely to fix it.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Dual Wield. I used tosay "If you are really good with a weapon, you won't need more than one of it to kill". But since it may be useful to us, I don't complain. However, firing two pistols at a target is one thing, but try it with moving, you will have a better chance to make an elephant dance than to hit with both guns.
Agree. Hence my suggestion to make DualWield be a damage multiplier but reduce accuracy.
In this thread you asked if we would really want to give up one of our specials for it. I'm one of those who focus on PvE, but still, looking at all the broken specials I would give one of them away with pleasure to get something like that. I may only use it once in my entire SWG career, but that's already once more(form the day onI used them to see the effect)than I use the other specials.
Yes I said that. But the point was also to show how limited its use is. Like you I'm mainly PvE. I've been involved in PvP all of ten times. Only three of those were voluntary. I've used SniperShot twice.
I was just showing how instead of asking for a very limited ability, Pistoleers would be better off asking for a general ability that would be useful not only for PvP, but also for PvE.
The other point was to work to getting all the broken specials fixed or new ones that make sensebefore asking for specials that infringe on other professions abilities.
I also explained why Rifleman have SniperShot. Because of the Devs misguided idea that Riflemen are Snipers (in my opinion of course). It's my understanding that in Beta SniperShot was a high damage attack. Something like a MindShot4 or so. But it was nerfed to what it is now. I don't think you can find a skill in any other profession of such limited use. Only in PvP and only against and incap'd opponent? A couple of Rifleman skills have that. SurpriseShot is suppose to only work when using TakeCover. If they ever fix TakeCover they should also probably impose that limitation on ConcealShot too. Or at least require the prone position.
Yet you won't find other professions with these kinds of restrictions. It makes the use of one special dependent on the use of others. I don't mind it. It's part of the disadvantages of the profession. Part of the circular balance.
But before they can balance anything, they have to make sure everything is working as intended. That means all the Pistoleers specials working as their descriptions say.
Message Edited by Waste93 on 05-08-2004 04:18 PM
You know, the problem for me is, it's not my first mmorpg. I've played UO for quiet a long time, a bit Neocron, DAoC for more than 2 years, Horizons and now SWG. My experience tells me, there will never be a "combat balance" like they want it to be. After so many years, there are still skills in UO with very little use. I've played DAoC since Beta, there have been skill lines which were much more powerful than their counterparts of the same class since day one and they still are! They can't even do the jedi system and a smuggler revamp in one publish, yet they want to tell me they will "balance" combat in just one? Sorry but that's just a laugh for me. I'm sure there will never be real balance. Every "nerf", every new item... all of these things influence the balance. After publish 10, the game may be slightly more balanced than now, but never really balanced, not even after publish 20. If they would be able to do it, why didn't they make it from the start? That's part of why Beta Phases exist. What they could do is fixing the bugs, fixing our specials, instead they do the same as the devs in every other mmorpg have done and still do, add new "sparkling" things to try to make people forget about the existing problems and promising to fix it and rebalance it later. I want the specials to work first, that's why I stick to the existing system, because I don't think the combat balance will "work".
Waste93 wrote:
Here is the official definition per Webster :
1 : a short-barreled lightweight firearm orig. used by cavalry
2 : a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush
Well you clearly have a different dictionary to me, but that is besides the point, even in your definition it states that a carbine is a type of rifle.
And real world aside, this is a game where different professions have to have different roles so that there is a point in chosing one over another.
Pistoleers are in close, almost melee range, gun fighters - defences over damage
Carbineers are medium range -running around shooting fully automatics
Riflemen are long range - Laying on the ground shooting high damage shots, sometimes from cover, but immobile
Now i am not saying this is exactly how it is, or how it should be, but my point is if riflemen are the guys who are running around with big guns then what role goes to the carbineers? to keep the difference there to make all classes have a unique role.
Personally i see rifleman as a man with a rifle, not an assault rifle, a rifle.. used for sniping, hunting etc. I see it as the perfect combat profession to go with ranger to make the ultimate hunter.
You need dramatic differences between classes otherwise there would be no point picking one over another, if you don't want to be a sniper / hunter then drop rifleman and pick up carbineer instead.
true_Kieran wrote:
You know, the problem for me is, it's not my first mmorpg. I've played UO for quiet a long time, a bit Neocron, DAoC for more than 2 years, Horizons and now SWG. My experience tells me, there will never be a "combat balance" like they want it to be. After so many years, there are still skills in UO with very little use. I've played DAoC since Beta, there have been skill lines which were much more powerful than their counterparts of the same class since day one and they still are! They can't even do the jedi system and a smuggler revamp in one publish, yet they want to tell me they will "balance" combat in just one? Sorry but that's just a laugh for me. I'm sure there will never be real balance. Every "nerf", every new item... all of these things influence the balance. After publish 10, the game may be slightly more balanced than now, but never really balanced, not even after publish 20. If they would be able to do it, why didn't they make it from the start? That's part of why Beta Phases exist. What they could do is fixing the bugs, fixing our specials, instead they do the same as the devs in every other mmorpg have done and still do, add new "sparkling" things to try to make people forget about the existing problems and promising to fix it and rebalance it later. I want the specials to work first, that's why I stick to the existing system, because I don't think the combat balance will "work".
A little extra example, I have a master id on infinity, so I was looking forward for the id publish too. In addition to people thinking our time is for free, we had many bugs. For example, one of the most common situations during the grinding was the following:
Player A wants to grind ID, he asks his friend player B if he can train id on him. Player B, having a bold character accepts. Player A starts to give player B several different hairstyles until player B finally asks to get bold again, resulting in player A noticing that he can't do it. Now both look for a "real" ID to get player B bold again, sad thing is, the devs forgot to put the "bold hair style" in, which is why "real" IDs tell their customers about these things before they change ANYTHING.
Now IDs found a workaround for this, a special combination of actions resulted in letting the hairstyle of the customer appear in his inventory where he was able to destroy it and in this way make himself bold again. Meanwhile they fixed it..... the workaround, not the problem that you can't make them bold, meaning it's now really impossible for IDs to make people bold. Yet I haven't read what the fixes in this publish will be, what if read was the following which I found in the smuggler forum:
Thunderheart wrote:
Thornstar wrote:
well as you are pushing back the revamp 6 weeks, does that mean we can expect other things "more" completed due to the extra dedication that was to go on the smuggler revamp?
Yes. Thats the main impetus of the decision. The caveat is thatno one knows "how much" until the work starts. For instance, with the ID revamp, we wanted to add moretatoos and hairstyles, but the time needed to execute on that is just not available right now. We will do that in the future, but not at the moment.
And what I've read is, that they give us "holo emotes". Now they didn't have the time to add more tatoos and hairstyles but they had the time to make freaking holo emotes?? Sparkle.. that's all I have to say here.