Pistoleer Archive
Thread: AP2 ON A PISTOL?#%#!% Are you CRAZY?
there are many arguments here with comments like "everyone should have a specific role" and "riflemen have the role of AP" and "pistols should not have the same AP as rifles."
i begin by saying i definitely agree that every profession should have something unique to set them apart from other professions. therefore, the issue is what do pistoleers have the riflemen do not? riflemen CAN hit the speed cap. ive played a rifleman and dropped it for pistoleer (didnt think rifles went with my smuggler persona) and witnessed first hand the awesome destructive power of strafe shot 2. the special is simply amazing, and nothing any pistoleer tree, including those in smuggler and bounty hunter, can compare. so right there rifleman are using a special more powerful than any pistoleer special, which makes sense to me, since they are supposed to hit harder, BUT they are are also doing it at the speed cap.
rifleman having the role of AP can tie into the previous paragraph. i agree that rifleman should hit the hardest and have the best AP ability. should they have the same speed as a pistoleer? no. right now riflemen are hogging all the best qualities of a ranged combat prof. they can match the top speed and they have the top damage and top AP. furthermore, riflemen have the most ranged defense and only 5 less melee defense than a pistoleer.
when a pistoleer asks to have AP2, they are not asking to match the AP of a rilfeman, they are asking to match the AP of a carbineer and, more importantly, be effective in many of the new pve additions to swg. rifleman's highest AP is heavy, and ive not seen one post requesting that a pistol be given AP3. i agree that a pistol with AP3 is a ridiculous suggestion, and that probably being the reason no one has suggested it. what HAS been proposed, is that pistols get ONE AP2 weapon with a considerable drawback to speed and range.
with the previous three paragraphs in mind, i fail to understand why an AP2 pistol with a lower max range would be such a wild and incomprehensible idea. we are not asking for a total prof balance, nor are we asking for every perk of rifleman (which, as seen earlier, are considerable). we, the pistoleer community, save for a few traitors 
are asking for ONE weapon to make us a more viable addition to high lvl pve groups.
Vurtorax wrote:
The reason other professions have AP is because Rifles/Carbine equivalentsfire 3-1/2 inch magnum rounds in real life. You wanna try fitting one of those in a pistol??? That's crazy, the recoil on that would break your wrists (recoil is worse on smaller weapons by the way...less mass= easier to move). I'm a Pistoleer too, workingon Master. So don't think I'm picking on Pistoleers, I'm in the same position as you. But it just doesn't make sense to give any pistol AP2. What's next, AP2 for Teras kasi too?? They have it even worse against big game because they have to stand right in its face to hit it and they have no AP whatsoever! You guys need to understand the different classes have different roles. Maybe if you're a pistoleer you shouldn't go hunt big game alone. We have an advantage over rifleman fighting lots of creatures in close quarters, we can use fanshot or multi target pistol shot, so do the devs have to give riflemen something like that?? The last thing I want is for everyone to be able to do what everyone else can, that's just boring.
Crossover wrote:
Do People who say things like that ONLY PvE against Low Level monsters?
Do me a favor, go fight a krayt or a nightsister with no ap or ap1, then watch the master rifleman do the same with his ap 2 or 3
Give me a fsckin break, AP is what makes us suck half the time... we cannot outdamage people on high level monsters....
And also, don't say oh real life real life, because first off you have heavy pistols in real life, and anyways, in real life do people throw things from behind walls that poisin and disease?
We NEED something with AP2
Unlike us they have melee mitigation 3 tho rocks for pve, watch a tkm tank a krayt then watch a pistoleer
Grab popcorn for the TKM, forget it for the pistoleer
you know, blaster rifles and carbines are pretty unrealistic. so it doesn't really matter what kind of ammo a rifle or carbine (that fires bullets anyway, not energy bolts) fires in real life.
Vurtorax wrote:
The reason other professions have AP is because Rifles/Carbine equivalentsfire 3-1/2 inch magnum rounds in real life. You wanna try fitting one of those in a pistol??? That's crazy, the recoil on that would break your wrists (recoil is worse on smaller weapons by the way...less mass= easier to move). I'm a Pistoleer too, workingon Master. So don't think I'm picking on Pistoleers, I'm in the same position as you. But it just doesn't make sense to give any pistol AP2. What's next, AP2 for Teras kasi too?? They have it even worse against big game because they have to stand right in its face to hit it and they have no AP whatsoever! You guys need to understand the different classes have different roles. Maybe if you're a pistoleer you shouldn't go hunt big game alone. We have an advantage over rifleman fighting lots of creatures in close quarters, we can use fanshot or multi target pistol shot, so do the devs have to give riflemen something like that?? The last thing I want is for everyone to be able to do what everyone else can, that's just boring.
Crossover wrote:
Do People who say things like that ONLY PvE against Low Level monsters?
Do me a favor, go fight a krayt or a nightsister with no ap or ap1, then watch the master rifleman do the same with his ap 2 or 3
Give me a fsckin break, AP is what makes us suck half the time... we cannot outdamage people on high level monsters....
And also, don't say oh real life real life, because first off you have heavy pistols in real life, and anyways, in real life do people throw things from behind walls that poisin and disease?
We NEED something with AP2
Pistols IRL vary as much in firepower, calibur of rounds, accuracy, and speed as rifles and carbines. What sets them apart is the limited effective range they have, pistols are close range weapons, the advantage they have in these circumstances is speed needed to aquire target is dramattically reduced. Takes very little time to point, line up target in site, and then fire compared to much larger weapons like rifles where you would need more time to raise your weapon to your eye and then swing it around to each target. Police use pistols generally for these reasons.
Hard hitting real life pistols include 10mm beretta, 44 magnum, .45s, even up to .50 cal pistols. Machine pistols are another variety of pistol that have incredible rates of fire that are very handy for suppresion fire in a hurry. Many of these other varieties of pistols are not commonly known to the average joe because they are not readily available to the ordinary citizen and some due to being flat out illegal. But hey if you think a .357 magnum with a full metal jacket wont take you down you are smoking some serious crack. It seems many people are of the opinion that armor piercing bullets are only available for rifles and that pistols are mere BB guns.
In the SW universe blasters of all types use tobanna gas cartridges for ammuntion. What seperates them all is their accuracy, speed, and ammunition capacity along with ability to fire a set number of rounds before overheating. Han solo's DL-44 punched right through armor just like any T-21. T-21s were shown being used in two instances in the movies and both times they were being fired from a fixed position on mounted tripods. The T-21 even resembles a heavy machine gun, very similar in appearance to a Ma Deuce( .50 cal browning) from modern day. I can tell you from personal experience that firing such a weapon from your shoulder is IMPOSSIBLE. It would break every bone in your ahoulder and throw you to the ground. It isnt an anti personell weapon, its used to punch through light armored vehicles. Btw i served in the US ARMY and i used one regularly as a19 Kilo armor crewman and its a heavy weapon not a rifle. T-21s are not rifles yet rifleman in SWG use them. I could be calling foul that rifleman were given heavy weapons not even mentioning AP values. Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons that can be used firing on the run with this kind of incredible accuracy and speed at all ranges.
However i can post many many pistols that were capable of punching through lightly armored vehicles in the SW universe and even some that were as hard hitting as AP3. This isnt the real world. Blasters in SW do not obey real world limitations. Please stop thinking you know about them. If you had ever read any SW weapons technical manual you'd feel pretty damned stupid right now.
Message Edited by Keito_Temreh on 04-21-2004 12:57 PM
Message Edited by Keito_Temreh on 04-21-2004 03:28 PM
AMEN
Keito_Temreh wrote:
Vurtorax wrote:
The reason other professions have AP is because Rifles/Carbine equivalentsfire 3-1/2 inch magnum rounds in real life. You wanna try fitting one of those in a pistol??? That's crazy, the recoil on that would break your wrists (recoil is worse on smaller weapons by the way...less mass= easier to move). I'm a Pistoleer too, workingon Master. So don't think I'm picking on Pistoleers, I'm in the same position as you. But it just doesn't make sense to give any pistol AP2. What's next, AP2 for Teras kasi too?? They have it even worse against big game because they have to stand right in its face to hit it and they have no AP whatsoever! You guys need to understand the different classes have different roles. Maybe if you're a pistoleer you shouldn't go hunt big game alone. We have an advantage over rifleman fighting lots of creatures in close quarters, we can use fanshot or multi target pistol shot, so do the devs have to give riflemen something like that?? The last thing I want is for everyone to be able to do what everyone else can, that's just boring.
Crossover wrote:
Do People who say things like that ONLY PvE against Low Level monsters?
Do me a favor, go fight a krayt or a nightsister with no ap or ap1, then watch the master rifleman do the same with his ap 2 or 3
Give me a fsckin break, AP is what makes us suck half the time... we cannot outdamage people on high level monsters....
And also, don't say oh real life real life, because first off you have heavy pistols in real life, and anyways, in real life do people throw things from behind walls that poisin and disease?
We NEED something with AP2
Pistols IRL vary as much in firepower, calibur of rounds, accuracy, and speed as rifles and carbines. What sets them apart is the limited effective range they have, pistols are close range weapons, the advantage they have in these circumstances is speed needed to aquire target is dramattically reduced. Takes very little time to point, line up target in site, and then fire compared to much larger weapons like rifles where you would need more time to raise your weapon to your eye and then swing it around to each target. Police use pistols generally for these reasons.
Hard hitting real life pistols include 10mm beretta, 44 magnum, .45s, even up to .50 cal pistols. Machine pistols are another variety of pistol that have incredible rates of fire that are very handy for suppresion fire in a hurry. Many of these other varieties of pistols are not commonly known to the average joe because they are not readily available to the ordinary citizen and some due to being flat out illegal. But hey if you think a .357 magnum with a full metal jacket wont take you down you are smoking some serious crack. It seems many people are of the opinion that armor piercing bullets are only available for rifles and that pistols are mere BB guns.
In the SW universe blasters of all types use tobanna gas cartridges for ammuntion. What seperates them all is their accuracy, speed, and ammunition capacity along with ability to fire a set number of rounds before overheating. Han solo's DL-44 punched right through armor just like any T-21. T-21s were shown being used in two instances in the movies and both times they were being fired from a fixed position on mounted tripods. The T-21 even resembles a heavy machine gun, very similar in appearance to a Ma Deuce( .50 cal browning) from modern day. I can tell you from personal experience that firing such a weapon from your shoulder is IMPOSSIBLE. It would break every bone in your ahoulder and throw you to the ground. It isnt an anti personell weapon, its used to punch through light armored vehicles. Btw i served in the US ARMY and i used one regularly. !9 Kilo armor crewman and its a heavy weapon not a rifle. T-21s are not rifles yet rifleman in SWG use them. I could be callinf foul that rifleman were given heavy weapons not even mentioning AP values. Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons.
However i can post many many pistols that were capable of punching through lightly armored vehicles in the SW universe and even some that were as hard hitting as AP3. This isnt the real world. Blasters in SW do not obey real world limitations. Please stop thinking you know about them. If you had ever read any SW weapons technical manual you'd feel pretty damned stupid right now.
Keito_Temreh wrote:
Pistols IRL vary as much in firepower, calibur of rounds, accuracy, and speed as rifles and carbines. What sets them apart is the limited effective range they have, pistols are close range weapons, the advantage they have in these circumstances is speed needed to aquire target is dramattically reduced. Takes very little time to point, line up target in site, and then fire compared to much larger weapons like rifles where you would need more time to raise your weapon to your eye and then swing it around to each target. Police use pistols generally for these reasons.
Hard hitting real life pistols include 10mm beretta, 44 magnum, .45s, even up to .50 cal pistols. Machine pistols are another variety of pistol that have incredible rates of fire that are very handy for suppresion fire in a hurry. Many of these other varieties of pistols are not commonly known to the average joe because they are not readily available to the ordinary citizen and some due to being flat out illegal. But hey if you think a .357 magnum with a full metal jacket wont take you down you are smoking some serious crack. It seems many people are of the opinion that armor piercing bullets are only available for rifles and that pistols are mere BB guns.
In the SW universe blasters of all types use tobanna gas cartridges for ammuntion. What seperates them all is their accuracy, speed, and ammunition capacity along with ability to fire a set number of rounds before overheating. Han solo's DL-44 punched right through armor just like any T-21. T-21s were shown being used in two instances in the movies and both times they were being fired from a fixed position on mounted tripods. The T-21 even resembles a heavy machine gun, very similar in appearance to a Ma Deuce( .50 cal browning) from modern day. I can tell you from personal experience that firing such a weapon from your shoulder is IMPOSSIBLE. It would break every bone in your ahoulder and throw you to the ground. It isnt an anti personell weapon, its used to punch through light armored vehicles. Btw i served in the US ARMY and i used one regularly. !9 Kilo armor crewman and its a heavy weapon not a rifle. T-21s are not rifles yet rifleman in SWG use them. I could be callinf foul that rifleman were given heavy weapons not even mentioning AP values. Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons.
However i can post many many pistols that were capable of punching through lightly armored vehicles in the SW universe and even some that were as hard hitting as AP3. This isnt the real world. Blasters in SW do not obey real world limitations. Please stop thinking you know about them. If you had ever read any SW weapons technical manual you'd feel pretty damned stupid right now.
Keito_Temreh wrote:
Pistols IRL vary as much in firepower, calibur of rounds, accuracy, and speed as rifles and carbines. What sets them apart is the limited effective range they have, pistols are close range weapons, the advantage they have in these circumstances is speed needed to aquire target is dramattically reduced. Takes very little time to point, line up target in site, and then fire compared to much larger weapons like rifles where you would need more time to raise your weapon to your eye and then swing it around to each target. Police use pistols generally for these reasons.
Hard hitting real life pistols include 10mm beretta, 44 magnum, .45s, even up to .50 cal pistols. Machine pistols are another variety of pistol that have incredible rates of fire that are very handy for suppresion fire in a hurry. Many of these other varieties of pistols are not commonly known to the average joe because they are not readily available to the ordinary citizen and some due to being flat out illegal. But hey if you think a .357 magnum with a full metal jacket wont take you down you are smoking some serious crack. It seems many people are of the opinion that armor piercing bullets are only available for rifles and that pistols are mere BB guns.
In the SW universe blasters of all types use tobanna gas cartridges for ammuntion. What seperates them all is their accuracy, speed, and ammunition capacity along with ability to fire a set number of rounds before overheating. Han solo's DL-44 punched right through armor just like any T-21. T-21s were shown being used in two instances in the movies and both times they were being fired from a fixed position on mounted tripods. The T-21 even resembles a heavy machine gun, very similar in appearance to a Ma Deuce( .50 cal browning) from modern day. I can tell you from personal experience that firing such a weapon from your shoulder is IMPOSSIBLE. It would break every bone in your ahoulder and throw you to the ground. It isnt an anti personell weapon, its used to punch through light armored vehicles. Btw i served in the US ARMY and i used one regularly. !9 Kilo armor crewman and its a heavy weapon not a rifle. T-21s are not rifles yet rifleman in SWG use them. I could be callinf foul that rifleman were given heavy weapons not even mentioning AP values. Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons.
However i can post many many pistols that were capable of punching through lightly armored vehicles in the SW universe and even some that were as hard hitting as AP3. This isnt the real world. Blasters in SW do not obey real world limitations. Please stop thinking you know about them. If you had ever read any SW weapons technical manual you'd feel pretty damned stupid right now.
As pistoleers we should be able to hit more at closer range then any ranged profession. If this is a higher speed for pistoleers or even better accuracy then we need it. Because like someonesaid aboveI have been turned down to join a group either hunting or bunker, because I had a pistoleer tag over my head and not a rifleman or combat medic.
We as pistoleers should be second only to a melee profession in the same range. 0-40(from what ive heard some of the new pistols reflect this range). 35+ should be carbineer, and long range 50-64 should and only be rifleman.
And if AP2 would help us then fine but I think the ranges need to be fixed first. I am sorry I hate it when I see rifleman walk up and waste stuff in under 30m it makes me wonder if the DEVs have it out for pistoleers.
Maybe have a negitive bonus at closer ranges for the longerranged professions, make it a pain to beinor near melee rangefor say a rifleman. If they arein melee rangeto the critter/npcmake the to hit bonusabove the targetssay -400, and if it was a pistoleer at samemelee range the bonus could be +50. Doubt it would stop them from getting that close but would help us at least.
But of course the DEVs will feed us the same tripe as normal "wait for the combat rebalance, blah blah blah".
Well off to read about my other borked profession Droid Engineers.
Crossover wrote:
Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons.
I am not finding fault with your argument. i rather enjoyed it. However, to the best of my knowledge, as I gave up commando a few months ago, they have 2 AP 3 weapons. The Heavy Particle Beam Canon, and te Rocket Launcher. Both of these weapons are almost useless until you hit master, since you have very low accuracy and speed in the beginning.
Very nice argument, by the way.
flabajaba2213 wrote:
Crossover wrote:
Commandoes dont even have AP3 weapons.
I am not finding fault with your argument. i rather enjoyed it. However, to the best of my knowledge, as I gave up commando a few months ago, they have 2 AP 3 weapons. The Heavy Particle Beam Canon, and te Rocket Launcher. Both of these weapons are almost useless until you hit master, since you have very low accuracy and speed in the beginning.
Very nice argument, by the way.
Yes commando's have those weapons but they are not feasible to use against anything but a hardened target like a Turret or AT-ST. Hence why i omitted them. A commando has to set them in place then fire them and even then still has a high chance of missing his target. Rifleman carry their "heavy" weapons around firing them off like a pistoleer at the speed cap. I edited my previous post to reflect this.
Message Edited by Keito_Temreh on 04-21-2004 03:32 PM
There is no RL. Only SWG or not SWG.
/agree
This is not RL dorks. This is a game, based on a Sci-Fi/Fantacy GAME