Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Status of Pistoleer Specials
Honestly, I think the ideas that Philosopher1976 presented back in November would be better (and more realistic - some of the suggested fixes you propose are a bit too much). here's that post, word for word:
1) DISARMING SHOT 1 AND DISARMING SHOT 2 DON'T WORK (Reported in AUGUST): These specials do not “disarm” an opponent or do ANYTHING else and are useless in their current forms (the descriptions do not match the special effect). DisarmingShot1 has no special effect -- it just does random HAM damage. Actually, it does LESS DAMAGE THAN THE DEFAULT AUTO ATTACK (when you don’t use a special attack), due to the delay. DisarmingShot2 (Master Pistoleer special) used to be an AOE Knockdown, but now it just does more damage to the person using it (in HAM costs) than it does to the enemy. Please add something useful to these specials, because they are unique signature specials of Pistoleers. In the past we've made a number of suggestions, including making DisarmingShot a ranged Intimidate, making it an ability similar to Panic Shot, or making it "disarm" an opponent by preventing him from equipping any weapon for a certain number of seconds, with a timer. Even hitting the Action bar for a decent amount of damage (say, 2.0 and 3.5 modifiers), at this point, would be worthwhile given that all of our specials tend to hit the Health bar. From our perspective, ANYTHING that is actually useful, at this point, would be welcome. One idea we'd like to take off the table -- Pistoleers are uniformly against the idea of damaging the condition of an opponent's weapon, because we are not interested in griefing other players. Please give us something that helps us kill the enemy, not grief him by destroying his expensive gun.
2) BODYSHOT 3 IS WORSE THAN BODYSHOT 2 (Reported in AUGUST): BodyShot3 (Pistoleer Grips 3) is outperformed by BodyShot2 (Marksman), and has been worse than BodyShot2 since release! We reported this in our first month's report, and it's still not fixed. Since BodyShot3 is the ONLY targeted HAM special in the entire Pistoleer tree, it should be significantly more effective than the special we get in Marksman. Just in case you don't believe us, multiple tests all showed the same results: (+74 pistol speed, 4.0 speed, 17-35 damage CDEF on unarmored, same opponent:
Body Shot 2 = 80.4 avg dmg per shot 1.8s avg delay = 43.8 dmg per second (Marksman skill)
Body Shot 3 = 97.8 avg dmg per shot 2.5s avg delay = 39.0 dmg per second (Pistoleer Grips 3)
We need BodyShot3 to be effective, given that it's our only targeted damage shot. A 3.5x damage modifier, a reduced delay modifier, a state effect added to it, ANYTHING to make it effective for a Pistoleer. As it currently stands, it’s basically useless, and it’s one of our hallmark special attacks.
[...]
4) MULTI TARGET PISTOL SHOT IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): Multi Target Pistol Shot, one of our Master Pistoleer specials, works only sporadically and even then is ineffective. I can't get the special to fire most of time when I've tried to test it, and even when it "works" it is worse than just firing by using the TAB key to move to the next target. As a Master Pistoleer special, it should provide a significant benefit -- right now it rarely works and isn't worth using when it does. Just make this into an AOE attack (since we know that the AOE code actually works) that targets the Health pool, and add a bleed/DoT or state effect. If that isn’t possible, make it a high damage AOE random HAM attack with a useful state effect (knockdown, blind, etc). Maybe even the “attack everyone within 32m” idea that the Combat Dev mentioned would suffice, as long as the code actually worked so we could hit everyone instantaneously. As a Master Pistoleer special, MTPS should be worth using and provide an incentive to climb up the tree instead of just dabbling at the bottom. Pistoleer specials are in general redundant, vanilla, and are seriously lacking without any ranged state effects, ranged knockdown, etc. One way to improve them is to have effective AOE attacks that work, such as MTPS.
5) PISTOL MELEE DEFENSE 2 DOESN'T WORK (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special currently does nothing -- it doesn't knock down the target, cause a state effect, or do anything else worthwhile ... yet it has a HIGHER HAM cost than Pistol Melee Defense 1, which is a melee knockdown. Right now it causes as much damage to the Pistoleer using the attack as it does to the enemy and is never worth using, as a MELEE range random HAM attack with high HAM cost. Please add the dizzy state effect to this special, so it's worth using as a combo with Melee Defense 1, and lower the HAM cost to be in line with the other pistol specials. Right now this special is totally broken.
6) FANSHOT IS BROKEN ON TESTCENTER: Prior to the last patch, FanShot was yet another useless Pistoleer random HAM attack that had no state effect and spit out the same DPS as Marksman specials. In the last patch, an AOE effect was added to the special, which suddenly made it a useful and unique change-of-pace attack for Pistoleers. Now, on TestCenter, the AOE effect has been removed. Why? Is this a bug? I haven't gotten Correspondent access on TestCenter yet, and you've asked me to write this Report ASAP, so I'm not able to investigate further. If the removal of the AOE effect is intentional, do SOMETHING to FanShot to make it useful. Right now Pistoleer is full of vanilla random HAM attacks that have no state effects and spit out the same or worse damage-per-second as Marksman specials.
7) STOPPING SHOT IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): The description of Stopping Shot is that it stops or incapacitates an opponent in one hit. We get a lot of questions asking if it slows an opponent, if it has a % chance to incap, etc., but all it currently does is spit out random HAM damage with a long delay modifier (it's slow). As currently implemented, StoppingShot is worthless to the average Pistoleer. It does less damage per second than Double Tap (Techniques II Pistoleer), and less damage per second than Roll Shot and Kip Up Shot from Marksman! Actually, it even does less damage over time early on, when compared to Overcharge Shot 1, which you get at NOVICE Marksman! The only folks who find this attack useful are folks who have the BH Pistol line, because they can dabble in Pistoleer and use the borked speed equation (see Gameplay Issue #2, below) to fire this special at the one-second speed cap. Please lower the delay to make this attack better than the Marksman specials for the average Pistoleer -- as we climb our tree, we should get better abilities, not worse ones! Also please add a state effect (like Posture Down) so this special actually stops/slows the enemy, as its description states. Right now, like so many of our attacks, this is just a random HAM attack with no state effects ... which means Pistoleers are better off using BodyShot because at least BodyShot’s damage is hitting a single pool instead of being spread across three (only 55% of random HAM attacks hit health, on average, based on our tests).
8) POINT BLANK AREA 2 IS BROKEN (Reported in SEPTEMBER): It is only hitting one target and not multiple targets -- please fix the area of effect. Also, the damage should be increased to make up for this being a point blank attack -- right now it has a similar DPS to Marksman specials, even though it is not attained until Pistoleer Grips 4 and is limited to melee range. Point blank attacks are so limiting to fast moving ranged combat professions that they need to offer significant benefits in order to be worth the risk of using. Significantly increase the damage on this special, and consider making it an AOE Warning Shot, so it can be useful to a Pistoleer who is being aggroed by multiple creatures.
9) DOUBLE TAP IS WORSE THAN MARKSMAN SPECIALS (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special, achieved at Pistoleer Techniques 2, is currently outperformed by the Marksman skills that any Pistoleer already has (Kip Up Shot, Roll Shot) in terms of pure DPS. We suggest a damage increase, or a drastic delay decrease so this can become the "quick attack" for low level Pistoleers. If there is something that could be done with this special attack to make it unique, that would also be welcome, since we have so many redundant special attacks that only do random HAM damage (and as you see, far less than they should).
10) POINT BLANK SINGLE 1 IS WORSE THAN MARKSMAN SPECIALS (Reported in SEPTEMBER): This special has the same damage-per-second as Marksman specials, yet is limited to melee range. This special ability offers no advantage to a Pistoleer that acquires it since they could use a non-range limited Marksman attack instead to deal out the same damage. Consider:
- increasing damage appropriately,
- decreasing the HAM cost for these specials,
- or adding a state effect to make it unique and worthwhile.
Please note that pistols are MOST effective at short range already, having a better chance to hit at short range is essentially overkill on accuracy, it needs something more than that to be useful.
11) HEALTHSHOT2 IS BUGGED (Reported in SEPTEMBER): Based on multiple tests (against other players), the wound levels for HealthShot2 are bugged. Each time that HealthShot2 hits an enemy, it has a chance of causing Strength or Constitution wounds. However, if the first HealthShot2 causes 58 Strength wounds, for example, the next HealthShot2 could cause the number of wounds to GO DOWN to, say, 43 or whatever. The wounds can actually DECREASE or increase with each subsequent hit, randomly. If this is supposed to be a way for Pistoleers to cause wounds, each shot should have a chance to cause Strength/Constitution wounds and they should add rather than fluctuate up and down (we think that is a bug). It’s obviously not functioning properly.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=24714
Great Post RandonB!
The sad thing is though, that this sums up our profession nicely: alot of broken and redundant specials. If they could implement just some of the suggestions you've provided, our profession would be much better off than it is now.
Message Edited by Randonb on 07-18-2004 01:51 AM
biwan:
Randonb wrote:
electricnomad - The 2 reports are similar in some respects. I don't want to get into a point-by-point analysis over which report is better. I certainly could, but I don't want to. It doesn't seem right and it doesn't seem fair to Philosopher1976. That report was written a long time ago. Things change, and what we need now are clear, consise recommendations for fixes that are technically feasable.
It's really the 64 meter range for MTPS and Point Blank thatI think is over the top.
Personally, I could care less about improved Point Blank shots; if the Devs just gave us some special Point Blank Accuracy mods or something like that for existing shots, that would work just as well, and probably be more efficient.
As for MTPS, the Devs said they were probably going to give us an up-to-10-target attack good for a 32 meter radius. I think that would be just fine, so long as it did some nice damage. If it were, say, 4x damage with a moderate delay (like a 360 degree Fan Shot), that wouldn't be bad at all. Even better would be an targeted Health pool attack at 3.5 or 4x damage that works in a 360 degree radius out to 32 meters (maybe 48 or so would work, too). I just can't endorse any special 64-meter attacks for Pistoleers, or that could potentially affect 50 opponents (I thought 10 was enough, really, especially for a 32m radius).
Anyway, as much as I'd like to have seen Pistoleer specials get fixed up, the bulk of them are EXACTLY the same as they were in November (and in most cases, launch). So I think Philosopher's observations stand, especially since he did a lot of technical research into DPS and state effects. The guy was one of the best testers this game ever knew.
Message Edited by KzinKiller on 03-04-2004 01:12 PM
Looks good, except for Disarming Shot 2. It looks like the devs aren't too high on delay attacks considering WC and Panic Shot are becoming useless in the next patch (I beg you to give me a use for them post-patch). The intimidate sounds nice. Work it kinda like Intim1 and Intim2, Disarming shot 1 intims for a short period of time, and Disarming Shot 2 intims for a bit longer with a little more damage added on. Though I don't like the idea of a special making another special useless, that seems to be the theme with numbered specials, with the exception of a few that have some different goodies attached.
We really got hit hard with the bleed nerf. Our bleeds weren't great in the first place, now only to become even worse.
All in all, great post. The only other problem is that we've been doing this for months now, and not once have they really listened to what we said. We just kind of dream about it. Though maybe now that carbineer is getting fixed, we'll be next in line. /crossfingers.