Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Question about health shot 2
Eyerleet wrote:
The only disadvantage you have applying bleeds is that you are taking up time that the mob is aliveby applying bleeds instead of shooting the mob for real damage.
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Hmmm my Sap (Health Shot 2) shots do hit for "real damage",usually 350,and on occasion hit for more damage on a mob than say another special like BS2. Sometimes if all I'm using is specials I'll just use Health Shots.
Just my twocredits on that.
By the way, I love these forums. I have learned so much from the expertise and insightthat my fellow pistoleers have given me here, before I came here I never took into account damage type like acid, energy, or heat. Thanks guys,keep up the good work.
Okay lemme point out a couple of things you wrote in your post. This whole thing is pretty confusing (even for me writing it), but once you understand the concept of it you should have a firm grasp on how this works.
the pistol weapons exp should not include bleeding costs on the opponents HAM
It doesn't, you're completely right. Any damage inflicted on a mob that comes from a bleed is completely disregarded as any damage from whoever. This is why I tried to explain that bleeds effectively "take away" from the mob's max HAM because the damage done from bleeding is "no one's" damage. Read those sentences again if you didn't get it the first time, lol. It's hard to explain.
Still don't understand how this can be, why is there a different weapons exp set-up in a group setting ?
Actually, this is a misconception. I think you're trying to say that the system of gaining exp in a group settingis different from soloing. It isn't. Exp is based on your total damage to the mob if you're in a group, right? Well if you're solo, you get 100% of the exp because you've done all of the damage to the mob. Here's the kicker that might be tough to wrap your head around (numbers are completely hypothetical, please bear with me):
Solo: MobY has 3000 Health, 3000 Action, and 3000 Mind. The devs set MobY to be worth 2000 exp. TheMAX DAMAGE that can be inflicted upon this mob is then 9000. I killed the mob and only did a total of 4000 damage. The system calculates how much of the 4000 damage I did to earn the kill, which is obviously 100%. 100% * 2000 exp = 2000 exp. 
Solo w/ bleeds: I start the fight by firing off health shot. By the end of the fight, lets say the bleedwill havedone 1000 damage. Now, with my normal shots and other non-bleeding specials, I do 3000 damage and kill the mob. The bleed helped me because the max damage that I myself can inflict is 8000. However, the game again only calculates my damage out of the damage it took to kill the mob, which is again 3000/3000=100%. I get full exp.
Grouped: I am in a group of 3, including me. Using the example of Mob Y above, my group does 5000 damage total, distributed throughout the HAM bars, and kills it. I do a total of2500damage because my groupmates suck 
Therefore, I receive 2500 dmg / 5000 dmg* 2000 exp = 1000 exp.
Grouped w/ bleeds: I decide to use bleeds this time on Mob Y, both health shot 1 and health shot 2. By the end of the fight, let's say that my bleeds have done a total of 500 damage. My group did a total of 4500. I did 1500 damage. I receive 1500/4500 * 2000 exp = 500 exp. I didn't do as much damage this time because in the time it took to apply both of the bleeds I could have been using fan shots instead, which would give me more "real" damage to boost the exp I receive.
I think this is why you're saying you get less exp for using bleeds in fights than if you didn't. There's nothing that needs fixing really unless they want bleeds to count as real damage. And when you said:
Hmmm my Sap (Health Shot 2) shots do hit for "real damage",usually 350,and on occasion hit for more damage on a mob than say another special like BS2. Sometimes if all I'm using is specials I'll just use Health Shots.
You're off on that one. HS2 does NOT have initial damage. That's another reason you're getting cruddy exp when using bleeds constantly instead of other specials.
About bleeding damage not contributing to XP:
In beta people used a tactic where they would get 64 meters from a target, hit it with a health shot, and then get out of range and spam the peace command until fighting stopped. The target would then bleed for a minute or so. Then, the player would get back in range, hit with a health shot, run away, spam peace, rinse and repeat until the mob was dead. Full credit and XP were given for the kill as if it had been done normally. This gave anyone with a bleed shot the ability to take out any mob, regardless of difficulty. To give an example, myself and one other person took out a Dark Adept using the above technique with the basic CDEF blaster. It took about 30 mins, but we both got full XP (3600 each).
So, bleeding shots were modified so as to not give XP for bleed damage, to prevent people from using it in this manner.
Xenophon, Bloodfin
Its funny that they did that, because it almost makes no difference. Think of it this way:
Dark Jedi Masters have around 30,000 health. If you bled it using your method for a while until he had 50 health left and you killed him with normal blaster shots you would still get full exp. So the devs made it so all you need to do is shoot it at least once with a non-bleed and you win.
Quote: "Dark Jedi Masters have around 30,000 health. If you bled it using your method for a while until he had 50 health left and you killed him with normal blaster shots you would still get full exp. So the devs made it so all you need to do is shoot it at least once with a non-bleed and you win."
I believe you only get XP for the the 50 health you took with the normal blaster shot. No more XP than killing a wort or grubbar. I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure this is how it's working now. Example: while fighting a mob, I was incapped. The mob bled do death before I could recover. The XP I receive from this mob who bled to death was lower than the XP I received from other mobs in his lair who I killed mostly with body shots.
Xenophon, Bloodfin
(MusicMangina wrote)
Hmmm my Sap (Health Shot 2) shots do hit for "real damage",usually 350,and on occasion hit for more damage on a mob than say another special like BS2. Sometimes if all I'm using is specials I'll just use Health Shots.
Eyerleet wrote:
You're off on that one. HS2 does NOT have initial damage. That's another reason you're getting cruddy exp when using bleeds constantly instead of other specials.
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Allright, here we go. This topic has me completely perplexed so I went out and did some testing. On this particular issue, I am right, Health Shot 2 DOES do initial damage, and it's average about 350 with my DX2 in the combat window, as well as has a corresponding *floating* red number above the MOB's head. However, an interesting side note, Health Shot 1 is nothing more than a bleed shot, it is the shot that DOES NOT give initial damage, however health shot 2 does, so Eyerleet, you are partially correct, check HS2 for yourselfnext time you play, it will show up as a 'Sap Blast' in the combat window.
While in testing, and this is the really confusing part, I found no staple of how bleeding affects exp in all scenarios. I didfind out some rules to specific situations, such as:
1.If you use HS1 and peace the combat que until the MOB bleeds to death, you will receive no weapons exp but will receive combat experience (very interesting, good call ranger), this won't work with HS2 because HS2 does blast damage as well as bleed, so you'll get some weapons exp.
2. If you are incapped while shooting a MOB and it ends up bleeding to death, you may receive full exp, and also at the same time you may not. My theory on this is that you must do a certain amount, or percentage,of damage with blasts to get full exp. If you are in a group you may receive exp based on the amount of damage you did, and sometimes you may receive no exp at all. No clue whyyou don'tget exp.
3. Unless we ask a developer who knows the coding inside and out, I do not think we will ever be able to determine on our own findings exactly the way this system works, for some reasons the findings vary from MOB to MOB, quite interesting, you'd think it would all work the same way in every situation. To me that just makes more sense.
Thanks guys for being so explanative in your answers/opinions, and for keeping the topic rolling.
Jowatii wrote:
Neither health shot 1 nor health shot 2 do any initial damage. Period. Thats right, zero initial damage. The numbers you are seeing in your combat spam and floating off of the creatures head is the amount of damage the bleeding will do when it the bleeding starts.
Think I'm wrong? Then go try it on any of the level 1 mob's. A hit of 350 with health shot 2 would instantly kill any of the level one mobs. It doesnt though. It doesnt even move the HAM bar that it hits at all. Go try it yourself
That's exactly right. And if I kill the same type of creature solo once with bleeds and once without bleeds I get exactly the same xp. And when I kill the same type of creature grouped once with bleed and once without I get more xp when I use the bleeds. I don't know the mechanics of it, but I do know this is how it works when I play without exception.
So the theory is: if HS1&2 do not do any initial damage and you do not supplement the damage of those shots with another attack, then as far as the game is concerned you have not done the minimum 5% dmage you need to do to get xp.
Mailboxhead wrote:
And when I kill the same type of creature grouped once with bleed and once without I get more xp when I use the bleeds.
There are SO MANY factors involved during fights, including the numbers that your groupmates are putting into the equation, that I cannot see how you guys can keep saying this without testing in a controlled environment. Personal experiences aside, I can pretty much guarantee that bleeds do not hamper or penalize experience in any way given the math that I've been seeing right in front of my face the past month.
As far as the "less exp when mob bleeds to death whilei'm incapped" deal goes, I've seen mobs die plenty of times while I'm incapped, but my experience caps on all of those kills anyways, so maybe any penalty I'm given when this happens doesn't matter because I get full exp anyways (wow run-on).I'd like to test that more but I don't really feel like playing.
And I'm still pretty sure that health shot 2 does not have initial damage, sorry if I'm wrong and sound so stubborn. Even the pistoleer correspondent says that it has none.
I would also like to point out, Eyerleet, that the 4 scenarios you came up with (solo, solo w/ bleed, group, and group w/ bleed) did in fact work exactly as you said, and your logic there makes sense. Also, kudosto you forusing SWG related algebraic expressions.
However, in the testing I did, as I mentioned above, the exp amount only fluxuated between all, some,or none if you were incapacitated during the fight. That is what's driving me crazy, I can't figure out the way they have it coded to give you exp if you were incapacitated while either:
a) the MOB in question bled to death
or
b) someone else killed the MOB (perhaps a group member, but this really doesn't matter, just someone else, could even be a NPC)
This is the issue that needs addressed. How come sometimes you may receive the full amount you earned, and sometimes none at all? I can't figure it out, but it is definitely interesting.
Also, I would like to state the obvious, since it hasn't been mentioned yet . If you are slain and somehow your target ends up dying himself, due to bleeding or being killed by someone else, you will recieve no exp, period, since you were slain and forced to reclone.
Neither health shot 1 nor health shot 2 do any initial damage. Period. Thats right, zero initial damage. The numbers you are seeing in your combat spam and floating off of the creatures head is the amount of damage the bleeding will do when it the bleeding starts.
Think I'm wrong? Then go try it on any of the level 1 mob's. A hit of 350 with health shot 2 would instantly kill any of the level one mobs. It doesnt though. It doesnt even move the HAM bar that it hits at all. Go try it yourself
From my experience, HS1 and HS2 cause no damage on impact. They also affect the amount of experience you receive from afight IF the fight lasts long enough for a bleed to occur.
If you use HS1 and HS2 in a fight, but you kill the enemy before the bleed ever occurs, then you still receive full experience (Combat and Pistol) for killing the enemy.
However, if you use HS1 and HS2 in a fight, and the fight does last long enough for the bleed to occur, then you receive full Combat experience. You only get Pistol experience for onlythe non-bleed damage that you did in the fight.
I believe this is correct. Please reply with feedback.