CUEmu - Thread Posts

Kevie

Sat May 29, 2004 6:26 pm

jamesgoddard wrote:

Quote... "the only reason rifleman do now is because better resources" - Ugh, what planet are you on..... The speed of the weapon has nothing to do with it, the fact that rifelmen get something like +96 speed is the reason that can fire as speed cap....

*cough*
did you read all of my post?

rifleman have always had +90 speed (and +5 at master) but the first T-21's came out with double digit speeds- until recently (and i don't mean like a week ago), rifleman weren't firing many specials at the cap...... the devs never realized that a T-21 would be crafted and then sliced to 1.5 speed (there's one on eclipse or something)
i also pointed out that loot drops were used also...... in beta not many people killed krayts so there wasn't much in the way of loot to be tested before galaxies went live
also there weren't many master smugglers around to get those +45% slices on weapons

you have to realize that all the speed mods have been in since beta..... it hasn't changed in almost a year and many weaponsmiths are finding ways to make weapons much greater than expected (like those 700+ damage or 0 speedfwg5's)

Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-

Randonb

Sat May 29, 2004 7:43 pm

#15

Whoops, I think you may have missed my point Kevie. My emphasis was on the last paragraph.

I was attempting to demonstrate that without adequate foresight, working out advantages/disadvantages can go awry, even if they sound good at first. Specifically, if these distinctions are too severe, theprofession could potentially run into problems when fighting other players of the same profession.

But yes, I agree that professions are in dire need of distinction between their own roles. It's just a tricky business fitting what people want to be intothe "balanceparadigm."

Message Edited by Randonb on 05-29-2004 09:47 PM

"...You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

biwan:
Former Pistoleer Correspondent (02/04/04 - 09/05/04)

Kevie

Sat May 29, 2004 8:13 pm

#16

i got what you meant

i knew it wasmostly hypothetical and the last paragraph was what i really commenting on lol

Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-

Randonb

Sat May 29, 2004 8:35 pm

#17

Gotcha. I knew it didn't sound quite like you to miss that...

"...You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

biwan:
Former Pistoleer Correspondent (02/04/04 - 09/05/04)

Datchery

Sun May 30, 2004 1:23 pm

#18

I have just had a flash of insight.

Dev's have said the DE-10 is the example of post-CB weaponry right? Look at it's speed. 3.6 is "fast". IF the combat balance is going to be changing everything, and weapons are going to be rebalanced...Then perhaps rifles are going to be hitting upwards of 15-20 Speed?

In conjunction with altering speed modifiers, perhaps this would result in Pistoleers being the truly 'fast' weapons by altering the current state of all weapons? Just an idea.

Randonb

Sun May 30, 2004 1:49 pm

#19

That, coupled with the statements that:

They want everyone to care about the speed stat on weapons.

They want pistols to be very fast.

Brought me to the same conclusion, Datchery. Just speculation of course. Keep in mind this is but one aspect of a sweeping combat revamp.

"...You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

biwan:
Former Pistoleer Correspondent (02/04/04 - 09/05/04)

Kevie

Sun May 30, 2004 11:37 pm

#20

Randonb wrote:

That, coupled with the statements that:

They want everyone to care about the speed stat on weapons.

They want pistols to be very fast.

Brought me to the same conclusion, Datchery. Just speculation of course. Keep in mind this is but one aspect of a sweeping combat revamp.

i also think i remember you saying something about "so they won't have to change it after the combat balance" in regards to the DE-10
although this whole thread revolves around speculation, many looted rifles have HORRIBLE speed (the tusken king's rifle is 14 speed, most pistol dropsare 4 speed) hell, i remember when my 1.7 speed scout blaster was THE greatest thing since my 1.9

i think the devs will try their hardest to bring weapon speeds back to their original design but add a bunch of tweaks so they stay that way

does this also mean that looted geo pistols will be useful with their 3.7+ speeds? *rubs chin*

ps. randon, how could you doubt me?

Message Edited by Kevie on 05-31-2004 02:43 AM

Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-

Dormax

Mon May 31, 2004 5:42 am

#21

Randonb wrote:
(HYPOTHETICAL to prove my point)

Lets say we make Pistoleers deal low damage, but have high defenses.
Lets also say we make Riflemen deal high damage, but low defenses.

Furthermore, lets make these differences really really drastic.

In order to accomodate the difference, a Pistoleer would have to have really super high defenses to stand against a Rifleman, right? Great, so when they face each other it's a toss up. Player skill, preparation, and equipment prevails. Okay, sounds fair so far.

But wait - what if a Pistoleer faced another Pistoleer? It's simple. Because they needed so much defense to deal with other classes, they wouldn't be able to kill each other.

I'm 2 steps from master pistoleer (actually about 25k combat xp yet to go.. hopefully today). So out of curiosity I ran numbers through the DPS calculations and was amazed when I realized the differense of pistol 4443 and master = 70-100% MORE damage per second as a result.

I think the core issue is definetly that messed up speed equasion. If that were to be fixed then I think alot of things would change balance wise. There are methods of doing it and without alot of extranious "this attack modified by x" and "rifle users modified by y"... KISS (Keep it stupidly simple).. but thats the devs concern.... at any rate....

My question / comment centers around existing weapondry. If the newer weapons are going to be the standard (i.e. 3+ speeds) then what happens when using the older weapons in whatever formulae they come up with. Clearly the current krayt pistols and the 1.x and 0.x pistols out there will have a major balancing problem... and theres alot of them. If WS's know about this coming, then you can expect a flood of schematics for lower speed weapons to be floating around after the patch. That's alot of 'rule-breaking' guns to have in the system. In time it would eventually fix itself, but that would take years for the fast guns to either a> die in repairs, b> get deleted with dead accounts, or c> be destroyed (either in the commodities system or outright by players).

Oshal To'Vu
Sub Inquisitor of the Imperial Inquisition
Commanding Officer for the 420th Fighting Wing
Captain of the IID Hydra Flagship

JawaJoey2

Mon May 31, 2004 9:54 am

#22

I agree that the speed equation needs to be fixed. Pistols are supposedly fast and light, rifles: slow and powerful. To overcome the speed disadvatage at master Rifleman, more speed was added, but at those high levels, just a little bit of speed takes you way faster. So it's impossible to balance. WIthout the mods, Riflemen are condemed to slow speeds, which they deserve at least some relief from at master level. WIth them, they are thrown into a realm where superpowerful specials can be spammed at or near the speed cap. It would be near imposssible to find the exact speed mod number that would be balanced, and a simple skill tape would throw the whole thing off.

"This being said, my question is; wouldn't it be more useful to use a Rifle(having high damage), firing at once per second, than using a Pistol(having low damage), firing at once per second?"

Yup. That's the problem with pistols. Rflemen fire fast and have high damage. Pistols have low damage, but here's the thing, they don't even fire at the speed cap without really fast pistols.

{[]|[[[[[|||||)(|)[[][//################################

jonstraf

Mon May 31, 2004 10:41 am

#23

they still havent fixed pistoleer yet? i left early october now i just bought a game card to see how the game is coming and i still come to find they havent done anything to fix pistoleer. Has anything been fixed? when i left none of the specials worked and being pistoleer was pointless

Elder Jedi

BZebub

Mon May 31, 2004 10:51 am

#24

i still think the best way to balance out speed among classes is to take out the speed modifiers.

...make it totally weapon-dependent. makes it a lot easier to balance.

edit:

jonstraf, things have probably gotten worse since you left.

Message Edited by BZebub on 05-31-2004 10:51 AM

Dormax

Mon May 31, 2004 10:54 am

#25

As I understand it the equasion currently looks something like this:

( [weapon speed]* [attack speed modifier] )* ( (100-[speed mod]) / 100 ) >= 1.0 (so it caps at 1 second)

so theres the flaw 100-speed mod / 100 which (if someone had 100 speed mod) could result in zero.

The flaw is in the programing. As a programmer myself, I see this kind of thing often. And because its the kind of equasion that gets run ALLOT at any given time, the lack of 'if' statsments is required for speed.

One Possible Solution:

-- minimum speed (MS)= speed of the weapon can never be lower the weapon speed (unless the attack modifier is less then 1)

-- thenmodify that to a minimum attack speed based on skill mod. if the speed mod is 100 = no penalty, at 75 = MS * 1.3, at 50 = MS * 2, at 25 = MS * 4

-- convert all mods so that a master gets 100 speed mod for all fighting professions

([weapon speed]* [attack speed mod]) *( 100 / [speed mod] ) >= 1.0

Examples using this (assuming default attacks or attacks that use a 1x speed modifier):

Pistoleer with 3.0 gun and 75 speed = (3*1)*(100/75) =4 seconds

Same with a 1.5 gun = (1.5*1)*(100/75) =2 seconds

Rifleman with 10.0 gun and 75 speed = (10*1)*(100/75) = 13.3 seconds

Same with a 7.0 gun (not a rifleman, so I'm assuming thats good) = (7*1)*(100/75) = 9.3 seconds

MASTER (100 speed mods) using the faster guns above:

Pistol = (1.5*1)*(100/100) = 1.5 seconds

Rifle = (7*1)*(100/100) = 7 seconds

Taking the above and adding +25 speed mods

Pistol = (1.5*1)*(100/125) = 1.2 seconds

Rifle = (7*1)(100/125) = 5.6 seconds

.... in other words, speed mods help non masters more then masters... but even a master gets a little boost. (Pistol: 1.5 vs 1.2 Rifle: 7 vs 5.6)

Its actually allot simpler to understand then what's currently being used and faster (one less opperation)

To boot... unless the devs were sloppy, there should never be a case were this drops below 1.0 seconds

If faster speeds are desired across the board the 100/mod could be tweaked... lowering the number (50/mod) = 1/5 the delay time... raising the number (200/mod) = doubles the delay.

Message Edited by Dormax on 05-31-2004 12:57 PM

Oshal To'Vu
Sub Inquisitor of the Imperial Inquisition
Commanding Officer for the 420th Fighting Wing
Captain of the IID Hydra Flagship

Asir_SWG

Mon May 31, 2004 11:48 am

#26

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*cough*
did you read all of my post?

rifleman have always had +90 speed (and +5 at master) but the first T-21's came out with double digit speeds- until recently (and i don't mean like a week ago), rifleman weren't firing many specials at the cap...... the devs never realized that a T-21 would be crafted and then sliced to 1.5 speed (there's one on eclipse or something)
i also pointed out that loot drops were used also...... in beta not many people killed krayts so there wasn't much in the way of loot to be tested before galaxies went live
also there weren't many master smugglers around to get those +45% slices on weapons

you have to realize that all the speed mods have been in since beta..... it hasn't changed in almost a year and many weaponsmiths are finding ways to make weapons much greater than expected (like those 700+ damage or 0 speedfwg5's)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevie, you really dont have a clue do you....... The speed of the rifle has not caused this problem!!! Yes there are some very fast loot t21's, but if you gave a master rifleman a choice of a 1.5 second t21 doing 400 max damage and a 6 second t21 doing 500 max damage, he would go for the 6 second weapon because it has a much higher DPS in his hands, why, because he fires them both at speed cap.

Rifleman speed is borked - the calculations are exponential thus is he just purchased +5 speed tape he can fire any weapon, any move at speed cap - even if it was a double digit fire rate.

ERHAMSTERHAMSTERHAMSTERHA
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RHAMSTERHAMSTERHAMSTERHAM
STERHAMSTERHAMSTERHAMSTER
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~~MSTERHAMSTERHAMSTERHAMSTE~~

Pistoleer Archive

Thread: Question about speed; Pistols vs. Rifles.