Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Question about speed; Pistols vs. Rifles.
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Yaurrada
Thu May 27, 2004 5:22 pm
#1
Well, I heard that once you reach Master Pistoleer or Rifleman, you fire at a 1 second interval with almost all speeds of weapon. This being said, my question is; wouldn't it be more useful to use a Rifle(having high damage), firing at once per second, than using a Pistol(having low damage), firing at once per second?
Is there something I'm missing?
EricTheGreat
Thu May 27, 2004 5:34 pm
#2
The game is unbalanced, you shouldve realized this by now. Hopefully it will all be fixed in the combat balance.
ViithSamoor
Thu May 27, 2004 5:43 pm
#3
EricTheGreat wrote:
Hopefully it will all be fixed in the combat balance.
This really is the be all-end all answer to all questions nowadays. If the combat balance isn't amazing, SWG just may receive the DB. "SWG is no more."
Datchery
Thu May 27, 2004 7:12 pm
#4
You arenn't missing anything Yarruda, Rifles aren't 'supposed' to be able to reach a 1 second firing speed. They are meant to be slow, hence, CB.
djswift2k
Thu May 27, 2004 7:58 pm
#5
at master pistoleer we don't fire at the speed cap on specials either, unless you got a nice 1.2 speed pistol or someting which i dont even know is possible anymore after all the pistol nerfs and crafting changes without some very very rare krayt tissue and a speed powerup (nobody puts speed powerups on krayt guns.....becasue krayt tissue increases the damage lol)
rifleman, however can cap the speed on theri specials on almost any rifle they use at master level. We can not. hopefully the combat balance shoudl change this, but Im rather doubtful after seeing how slow the DE-10's are (i have several made with +96 damage -0.627 speed krayt tissues that are only 3.6 speed). I dont know what to expect based on this using it as an example (the DE-10 mods are based on combar rebalance).
LLJK_Griz
Thu May 27, 2004 9:43 pm
#6
djswift2k wrote:
rifleman, however can cap the speed on theri specials on almost any rifle they use at master level.
actually you need either +5 from master marksman or a skilltape to get 1.0 on most attacks with most rifles, and +97 to get 1.0 on all attacks with a non-speed-sliced T21. Strafe2 and T21 are both very slow and cannot be capped without extra speed. Even a 3.2 speed riflewon't hit thecap on strafe2 with +90 speed.
the speed formula is flawed and results in exponential damage increase as speed approaches 100, instead ofa linear increase which would be much more balanced.
Kevie
Thu May 27, 2004 10:28 pm
#7
even with a 1.1 pistol we won't cap stopping shot at the speed cap, with master marksman we still need a 1.2 pistol
LLJK_Griz wrote:
actually you need either +5 from master marksman or a skilltape to get 1.0 on most attacks with most rifles, and +97 to get 1.0 on all attacks with a non-speed-sliced T21. Strafe2 and T21 are both very slow and cannot be capped without extra speed. Even a 3.2 speed riflewon't hit thecap on strafe2 with +90 speed.
the +5 helps rifleman so much because the speed mods are exponential (50is twice as fast as 0, 75 is twice as fast as 50, 87.1 is twice as fast as 75 and so on.....)
LLJK_Griz wrote:
the speed formula is flawed and results in exponential damage increase as speed approaches 100, instead ofa linear increase which would be much more balanced.
that's what i hope they do to fix the speed equation..... the only problem is delays on specials, it screws the whole thing up...... i hope they come up with a decent compromise though
Kevie
Thu May 27, 2004 10:29 pm
#8
sorry, double post
Message Edited by Kevie on 05-29-2004 05:23 PM
Asir_SWG
Sat May 29, 2004 1:10 pm
#9
What I am hoping is that every elite combat profession gets the same amount of speed points at master, and then these work by improving the speed of your weapon by a percentage of the weapon speed, so for example a master could get the weapon firing, say, 70% faster, whatever the weapon/ whatever the move.... I understand the speed cap has to stay because of game mechanics, but to find carbiners, and especially riflemen firing at speed cap would be hard without somevery fast weapons...
The DPS would be linear for all professions, and easier to balance, and those rifelmen will get a nasty shock when they can't spam every move in the book on the speed cap..
This would also resolve another gripe I have with rifelmen, thatas they know speed is not an issue, speed sliced weapons often get dumped on the bazaar or destroyed. If I have to hear another rifelman winge that a speed slice destroyed his t21, ahhhhh....
Kevie
Sat May 29, 2004 2:29 pm
#10
jamesgoddard wrote:
What I am hoping is that every elite combat profession gets the same amount of speed points at master, and then these work by improving the speed of your weapon by a percentage of the weapon speed, so for example a master could get the weapon firing, say, 70% faster, whatever the weapon/ whatever the move.... I understand the speed cap has to stay because of game mechanics, but to find carbiners, and especially riflemen firing at speed cap would be hard without somevery fast weapons...
The DPS would be linear for all professions, and easier to balance, and those rifelmen will get a nasty shock when they can't spam every move in the book on the speed cap..
This would also resolve another gripe I have with rifelmen, thatas they know speed is not an issue, speed sliced weapons often get dumped on the bazaar or destroyed. If I have to hear another rifelman winge that a speed slice destroyed his t21, ahhhhh....
carbineers almost NEVER fire at the speed cap, even with bounty hunter carbines
the only reason rifleman do now is because better resources, loot itemsand more experimentation points than the devs took into account when the system was created are making much faster rifles than were predicted
anyone remember 100% composite? basically the same thing as a 1.5 speed T21
as for the speed equation...... i REALLY hope that they fix it and add in a cap where basically mastering bounty hunter pistols OR master pistoleer (or the carbine equivalent) will cap out your speed mods
Blankgrun
Sat May 29, 2004 2:41 pm
#11
Riflemen, without tapes or Master Marksman, plug Strafe2 with a 7.5 second T21 every 2.3 seconds. Whereas a Pistoleer without tapes or Master marksman will fire a 3.3 Tangle Pistol with Stopping Shot every 3.2 seconds.
While not really balanced now, a few things to keep in mind. RandonB has said that he is fighting for another +10 speed for pistols, which would fire that tangle pistol every 1.8 seconds with Stopping Shot. Also, dual wield will most likely double damage that a pistoleer puts out.(Strictly educated speculation)With Krayt tissues and other loot items, that could mean a very nasty pistoleer DPS, making them the marksman classes to deal with lightly or unarmored combatants, much like Teras Kasi and Fencers are for Brawlers (All classes are limited to AP 1)
Asir_SWG
Sat May 29, 2004 3:15 pm
#12
Quote... "the only reason rifleman do now is because better resources" - Ugh, what planet are you on..... The speed of the weapon has nothing to do with it, the fact that rifelmen get something like +96 speed is the reason that can fire as speed cap....
Randonb
Sat May 29, 2004 4:33 pm
#13
Blankgrun wrote:
Riflemen, without tapes or Master Marksman, plug Strafe2 with a 7.5 second T21 every 2.3 seconds. Whereas a Pistoleer without tapes or Master marksman will fire a 3.3 Tangle Pistol with Stopping Shot every 3.2 seconds.
While not really balanced now, a few things to keep in mind. RandonB has said that he is fighting for another +10 speed for pistols, which would fire that tangle pistol every 1.8 seconds with Stopping Shot. Also, dual wield will most likely double damage that a pistoleer puts out.(Strictly educated speculation)With Krayt tissues and other loot items, that could mean a very nasty pistoleer DPS, making them the marksman classes to deal with lightly or unarmored combatants, much like Teras Kasi and Fencers are for Brawlers (All classes are limited to AP 1)
I fought for that as apre-CB measure to help alleviate our damage deficiency. We haven't seen it yet, so I'm doubting we will.
What I am fighting for in the CB is a complete rework of the speed system, starting with that borked equation responsible for this mess. It's just too difficult to balance when a miniscule change can have such a sweeping impact at higher levels. You can adjust the speed skill modifiers all day long, you can even make them equal, but it all goes out the window with skill/armor attachments (and now, force sensitivity with General Ranged Weapon Speed).It needs to be linear (not exponential), to keep balance predictable and sensible. Punch +5 speed into a damage calculator sometime at master levels and see what a difference it makes. For a Rifleman (90 speed at master), it provides +80% DPS.
After the equation is reworked, I'd like to see DPS to come out as roughly even - be it in the skill tree mods or weapon schematics (keeping an eye on powerups), it doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot so long as the end result is the same. Higher DPS for some and lower for others, depending on advantages and disadvantages, but nothing out of this world. There can be differences, but they can't be too extreme. The reason being the following:
(HYPOTHETICAL to prove my point)
Lets say we make Pistoleers deal low damage, but have high defenses.
Lets also say we make Riflemen deal high damage, but low defenses.
Furthermore, lets make these differences really really drastic.
In order to accomodate the difference, a Pistoleer would have to have really super high defenses to stand against a Rifleman, right? Great, so when they face each other it's a toss up. Player skill, preparation,and equipment prevails. Okay, sounds fair so far.
But wait - what ifa Pistoleer faced another Pistoleer? It's simple. Because they needed so much defense to deal with other classes, they wouldn't be able to kill each other.
biwan:
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