Pistoleer Archive

Accually there are alot of automatic pistols.

The mac 9 - 11 series is just one. They kind of look like the dx2.

The guy that started this post doesnt have a clue what hes talking. JB sorry for mixing up your names.

I really should get a full nights sleep before i start posting.

Message Edited by SanTsu on 01-31-2004 05:42 PM

I was in the army. My father was a navy SEAL in vietnam. my gramdfather was in korea. My great grand father was in WW1. My great great grandfather was in the civil war. My great great great great great grandfather was at valley forge with washington. No lie

JB i was half awake when i wrote that first thread so excuse me for mixing up my reading.

I still say carbine in RL are weak just becuase the army gives them out doesnt mean there good. up close you want kick not a 22 at range the m16 is better. Hell ill take a SAW over a carbine anyday.

im in the army right now. airborne infantry, 1-509th. our m-4's shoot a really cool laser beam. i can hit your mom at 300m. but since they took away full auto and gave me 3 round burst, i cant waste my ammo fast enough anymore. /sigh

I know very little about guns in real life. Therefore anything I say is from a game point of view.

I think balance is overrated. They spend too much time making sure every situation is equal for every combat class (except Commando and BH). I agree that the different weapon types shouldbe effective in different situations. A pistoleer should be able to destroy a Rifleman indoors, but not on a battlefield unless they can get in extremely close. I think there should be a type of rifle that can be fired from much farther than 64m but it should have an incredibly long delay and perhaps only be useable while concealed.

Some balancing is needed, it is a video game after all. I think everyone is ignoring accuracy as a factor. It makes sense that a rifle would be the most accurate. I thin it also makes sense that a carbine would deal extremely high damage (which includes the negative states) but it should be harder to target a specific pool. Real life analogy, when firing a fully automatic you can usually hit the target and hurt them but you have little control over where you hit them. A carbine should be effected most by range. Firing an automatic at close range is comepletely different than firing one from a good distance away (in real life and most video games). A pistol should be more of a gamble in combat. It should not be able to hit at the same range as a rifle, but if you can make it to close range you should be able to hit someones weapon. I also believe there should be a point blank rangehead shot for pistols.

From a design perspective it's much easier to break it down into specific stats. But just damage and speed wont work, accuracy must be included and made into more of a factor in my opinion:

Rifles - high accuracy, moderate damage, low speed

Carbines - low accuracy, high damage, moderate speed

Pistols - Moderate accuracy, low damage, high speed

Now, a Weaponsmith can experiment on each weapon to change these stats. They should be givin more flexibility. For example you could get a rifle that can have a higher speed, but at an extremely high HAM cost (probably to mind). Again this is a dsesign issue as opposed to a realistic issue. The other thisg about realizism is that Star Wars blasters are energy weapons, which is a lot different than the ammunition that real guns fire. The "realistic" aspect should be more based on scientifically how an energy weapon would perform. And by the way, I know the difference between Science fiction and fantasy and yes I know that Star Wars is fantasy. Still the basic laws of physics still apply to the Star Wars Universe. With the obvious exception of the Force.

I think you misunderstand "balance" as I use it. It don't mean everyone has the same chance to kill anyone or anything else, it means that every rock has it's paper, and scissors.

There is a few things that were not covered in this thread pertainind to the differences in the weapon classes.

First weapon range modifiers were not mentioned, pistols being the best at short range, carbs medium range, and rifles at long range in general. So to modify the table I saw earlier

PistolsCarbines Rifles

Speed Fast<---------------------->Slow

Sounds to me like our Carbine Troll just wants to implant dissent and confusion in our proffesion Bringing in RL comparisons into this game is nothing short of crazy. I'm USAF, and I promise you I won't be shouting "NERF THE X-WING, CAUSE F-16's BLAH BLAH BLAH." Its crazyness. Heck, you might as well say that Commando's need real commando skills (how many RL commando's hump a flamethrower to the objective,...we use explosives for those situations. And aren't they supposed to be all stealthy like?).

Anyway, its all about fixing our teh sux craptastic specials (master). In pvp, our main problem is we attack a very highly buffed stat with a weaker weapon (or one that has the accuracy of a trashbag -dx2). So maybe we have to run around constantly to wear down the enemy, so give us something that makes a pistoleer (master) a feared person, not a uber combat class, but one that makes the buff tank think, "Gee, I should think about my next move vs. plow this punk down like the friggin terminator".

Anyway, to our troll, if you want effect change, do so in your own forum instead of stirring up a hornets nest here. We are experts in our proffession, we know what we want, and we don't give a womp's rear what you think that a carbine should be this or that,...this is the pistoleer forum.

....retires to his room above the cantina,.......

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"Look! You've just been,.....DELETED!" -The Gost Dajtink Experience feat. Tito!

At one time or another, i've been a pistoleer, bh, smuggler, carbineer, tk, swordsman, fencer, and rifleman. All of these were by choice (no holo professions for me), so i think i have a pretty good understanding of the way combat works in this game.

Now, let me start by saying this, no pure profession is going to win consistantly in pvp. You have to combine and dabble in order to hold your own. That being said, you can't pick on a single profession, or complain about another. You guys don't even know what you are capable of because you have special attacks that don't even work yet. If everything in every profession worked you could experiment and see if your class was indeed gimped, but you can't. No one can yet.

Now about ballance. It is true that a pure pistoleer has a lower dps than the other classes, but it can be combined with smuggler, bh, and even commando if you so choose. This adds versatility. With these combinations you can fire a high damage (for a pistol) weapon at the speed cap. You also get different damage types as well as a variety of specials if you do this. Carbineers can do some of this, in that they can combine with a line of bh and gain a little power, but still this isn't as versatile as the pistol. They get damage and status effects to make up for the lack of speed/accuracy. Now on to rifles, the big target because of all the defensive stacking. Riflemen don't get to stack offensive mods with any other class, and they suffer the worst ham costs. A typical t21, by typical i mean run of the mill for the intrepid server, has hams that range from upper 70s to low 80s for mind cost per special before the special modifier. Unless you are buffed, on spice/food, or are a human with all of your stats in mind, you aren't going to fire very many shots with this bad boy before you have no mind left. I've heard many say that riflemen can fire at the speed cap and they can't, well, with the high damage t21, they can auto fire at the cap (as can all 3 professions), but they can't use thier best specials every second. In order to do this they have to master marksman as well, which both pistols and carbines get to do as well.

The reason i posted this is because i don't really care about what happens in the new combat revamp, because i will most likely stop pvping or become whatever is the next fotm. But, in everyone aboves comparisons i failed to see some of the factors i mentioned.There is more to balance than dps. The reason that the defensive templates are "over powered" right now is that people found a way to stack something worth having. This is the same reason that the pistoleer bh was over powered back in the day. You guys have more that stacks, you just don't use it.

Like i said above, no single profession can or should be able to keep up with a person who has mixed and matched skills in a skill (not class) based game. The statement "master 3 professions and DABBLE in a 4th"has been around since launch. So, quit whining and do it.

Very well thought out. You don't mention speed anywhere in there except to say that a rifleman needs to master marksman to use specials at the speed cap. Even with master marksman we can't spam stop every second on any average gun, not just our class specific weapon.

I'm sorry but to say the we SHOULD have to dabble to compete with those who don't is just rediculous. Riflemen don't need to dabble to have a decent damage output and some nice defences, why should we? Just because we can? Fine, then make the trees that are "stand alone capable" cost more skill points that the ones that have to stack to get by.

I agree that pure vs mutt the mutt wins, every time. But why should one pure version of one class be so much stronger than the pure version of another class? Simply becuase they don't have the option to dabble to increase the power of their weapon of choice?

I would leave commando out of the pistol stacking equation, there are no skill mods there that affect pistols, just a new gun that brings with it a new damage type, blast. The best thing about the Launcher isn't it's stats ( which are pretty sub par as far as pistols go) but the lag it induces.

But all this is moot, this thread is about speed and speed alone. We don't get enough.

Think the AUTO-9 from robocop

Blah! hehe,wanna talk rl in a game? what about all the ninjas running around chassingpeople aroundwith guns blazing at them? ill be damed if in rlif i had a gunon mewhile shooting away at some dude dodging my bullets like matrix and...... well back to swg u know the rest =P