Pistoleer Archive

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Bish wrote:

I really like the idea of placing a minimum distance cap on rifles and carbines. Like you said, we have to pull a carb or a rifle if we want to shoot over 35m. Why shouldn't they be forced to pull a pistol if they're under say 15-20? To me this sounds much more "balanced" than the current situation. Every profession gets general ranged accuracy and speed mods now, so this should not bethat big of anissue. Either we do something like this or go back to a system where all ranged weapons can hit from 0-65m, but get damage/accuracy bonuses if they're in a particular range.

I can understand Riflemen crying "Nerf!" I would be upset too, but I think that this would balance the game out better and give each profession a niche in the universe. Isn't that what the CU was supposed to do? Instead of having 1 or 2 FOTM, have a system of equally important but different professions to accomodate grouping and interaction among players?

I say either you pull a pistol out when a mob gets within 15m of you, or you have a pistoleer with you to help with the crowd control.

BTW: If a rifleman can root you with stopping shot, that means that they have some pistoleer. Why not force them to use it for more than just the special?

That's just my 2 cents.

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while i have little objection to having to pull out a pistol or carbine for a given range, there is one thing (that has been mentioned before) that really bugs me and will bug me more if min range caps are put in:

When i am in a group, i can't seem to help but draw the aggro with my rifleman. in order to keep from "drawing the aggro" and consequentally stealing the mob from my melee counterparts, i have to either root it, kd it, or pray that there's a jedi with dominate mind in the group to hold aggro. If not, then well pretty soon i find myself fighting a mob in the 15m range before i know it. Additionally, i find that more often than not i'm w/in 35-40m of my targets both in dungeons and on tatooine or wherever while hunting, simply due to hills, trees, etc. If i get slapped with a minimum range, than it's going to be really hard to even fire on about 50% of the planets.

Grozzer Agoutt

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Pug wrote:

Hi, everybody. I've been reading the thread and I've come up with a new proposal. Let me know what you think.

Pistol Certifications

All pistols have a 1-35 meter firing range.
(i.e. You need 30 meters to get the max range of 65 meters.)

Carbine Certifications

All carbines have a 15-50 meter firing range.
(i.e. You need 15 meters to get the min range of 1 meter.)
(i.e. You need 15 meters to get the max range of 65 meters.)

Rifle Certifications

All rifles have a 30-65 meter firing range.
(i.e. You need 30 meters to get the max range of 1 meter.)

Pistoleer Skill Bonuses

Each box of Pistoleer would give +1 meter max range while wielding Pistols.
Master Pistoleer would give +14 meter max range while wielding Pistols.

Carbineer Skill Bonuses

Each box of two trees of Carbineer would give -1 meter to min range while wielding Carbines.
Each box of two trees of Carbineer would give +1 meter to max range while wielding Carbines.
Master Carbineer would give -7 meter min range and +7 meter max range while wielding Carbines.

Rifleman Skill Bonuses

Each box of Rifleman would give -1 meter min range while wielding Rifles.
Master Rifleman would give -14 meter min range range while wielding Pistols.

What else?

There may need to be very small adjustments to SAC and damge costs for pistols, carbines and rifles to make the weapons more distinct. Or else everybody would just go Master Rifleman for damage. There should be balance in that pistols do less damage but can fire longer because of the low SAC. Rifles are the extreme opposite of that. Carbines are a balance.

What does this accomplish?

A profession is encouraged to use that professions's weapons because they'll be able to wield them effectively at all ranges. i.e. A Master Bounty Hunter / Master Pistoleer would be using a pistol because he can fire it from 0-65 meters, but if he picks up a rifle he's limited to 30-65 meters with it unless he has a few boxes in Rifleman which would bring down the minimum firing range.

This still allows for cross-profession dabbling. As a Pistoleer, I don't mind Rifleman using Stopping Shot. I think it should be encouraged. Not knowing what special someone is going to use helps the game's excitement level.

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I remember seeing in episode 1 two versions of the republic blaster (or Naboo Blaster): one with a long barrel and one with a short barrel. Maybe the current short barrel republic blaster could become a CL 54 no prof cert but the long barrel republic blaster could have a range of 50-60m and only be master pistoleer cert.

Any ideas on this option?

EDIT: Also make it so weaponsmith can make a an add-on that can be slapped onto any current or future Republic Blaster that increases the range but automatically changes the certification to Master Pistoleer, that way all the ppl w/ Rep Blasters now dont have to buy new guns!

Message Edited by mmaness on 06-30-2005 07:19 AM

Message Edited by mmaness on 06-30-2005 07:20 AM

Ok, I've read through this entire post, and it's taken me 2 days!

First I'd like to say how mature this post is - informative and constructive. Far more so that I ever saw on the BH forums *grin*.

I was Master Rifleman till about a week ago, then I respeced to Master Pistoleer for a few reasons: a) Being Master Squad Leader, I get the intimidator, which is the sexiest pistol in the game (imo). b) Damage specials are all well and good, but it isn't a good idea to draw so much aggro when you are squad leader. Can't do much when you're flat on your back. c) The specials complimented squad leader well (root, stun etc). Again, I felt there was more variety and versatility in pistoleer. d) it made more sense, as with the CM 4xxx I have, I'm always in range of my melee tanks to heal.

How wrong I was about the second to last.

Pistoleers have some nice specials, but they need to have more of an impact. Disarm is nice in one-on-many, but pointless in groups. Stun still doesn't seem to have that much of an effect. Intimidate...haven't tested this one as much. Fan shot - well. not good for one-on-many. And pointless in one-on-one. (at least pve, which is my main arena). Usually I put on as many states as I can, not knowing exactly what they do. But it doesn't seem to help combat much. Root is the most valuable, but is pointless against ranged mobs, because they have at least the same range that you have.

And the range sucks.

I had Pistols xxx3 when I was rifleman, and combined with the cyber arms, nothing could touch me.

All of this I think is wrong. Pistoleers deserve some love, and any love they get would probably help towards balancing them.

I've got two main ideas I think have merit, however there are bits about it I can't resolve.

1) Instead of introducing minimum range, remove any range caps at all. That's right, anyone can fire from any range. What should happen is that there is an optimum range that any weapon has (i.e. 35 for pistols, 50 for carbs, 65 for rifles). Each metre outwith this range gives -10 (or something) to accuracy. Kneeling gives +10, prone gives +20 (or something). For all weapons. Then there is almost always a chance to hit, and it gives a bit more scope to ranged combat. Possibly also introduce a modifier so that the closer you are, you get proportionally more accurate - so pistols at 35m are 100% accurate, at 17m are 150% accurate, and at 0m are 200% accurate. Same for rifles - 100% at 65m, 150% at 32, 200% at 0m. This would give pistoleers far more accuracy for being close in, and don't have to move as far to get a little bit more accurate, whereas rifles have to move alot to get the same accuracy modifier.
Bad bits - it essentially increases ranged combat range (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, more tactics etc) however it does leave melee profs kind out to dry. I don't know how to get round that. Also, it only goes part-way to giving pistoleers a chance to hit far off targets.

2) There are two types of specials - ones that are ability dependant, and ones that are weapon dependant. For example, leg/head/body shot are all ability - it's the ability of the person behind the gun that can aim at these parts to do effective damage. Then you have fan shot and quickdraw, which only pistols can do - you can't swing around a rifle easy enough to do this kind of thing.
Bad thing - most of the pistoleer specials are ability specials (disarm, warning shot, intimidate, stun, root and body shot). So anyone dabbling in pistoleer could use these ability specials. Possible workaround is to reduce the effectiveness of these specials, and add greatly increased specials in the master box (to represent that you've honed those skills specifically with pistols).
I don't know anything about carbineer specials, so I won't make assumptions.
Rifleman specials are the opposite of pistol specials - mostly weapon specials. (sights and things). But I think that some of these could be passed to non-auto carbines. The few exceptions are the snare and the headshot.

Please, talk about this, I know it's a bit more radical than some suggestions so far (especially the second one) and I am still trying to refine them. All input is greatly needed

Also, I like the idea of certing weapons alot more. I think that any marksman weapons should be free-for-all, and all others (I think it's lvl 20 for master marksman?) above that should at least require a novice box. Not quite sure how well that would work out though.

EDIT: Hell, you know what it is? It's this hard cap that's been introduced. Just been reading a similar thread in the rifleman forum, and it made me realise - everyone keeps saying that pistols can't fire as far as rifles. This isn't strictly true - they can fire as far, but whether they hit or not is an entirely different matter. Pistoleers should at least be given the choice of trying to hit back, like it was pre-cu.

Message Edited by KyeAshke on 07-02-2005 01:46 AM

I think the re-introduction of the accuracy modifier or minimum ranges being put on higher CL requirement weapons is the way forward. I'd lean towards the CL option because that requires people to carry a wider array of weapons and will mean more business for weaponsmiths.

Anything that requires more interaction between players and increases the need to group with an appropriate mix of templates is good. Currently, as has been stated, riflemen with skills from other trees are making non rifle weapon types redundant. The other problem is you don't have enough people going melee to be tanks and not enough people going healing to act as a group healer. There is too much interest in Rifleman currently and this is because it has advantages over the other professions, without suitable drawbacks.

Currently, all you tend to see are Jedi, Riflemen and Bounty Hunters. Anything that encourages profession diversity will always have my vote

Message Edited by da-bro on 07-02-2005 03:21 AM

Introducing a minnum range on a weapond is stupid. You would basacly make it in a system so only pistoleers can enter a dungeon and be effective. You would also make the 2 weaponds of a profession usless because most combat takes place about 40m and in i rarley ever at 64m in pvp

Message Edited by Sungin on 07-02-2005 02:22 AM

Message Edited by Sungin on 07-02-2005 02:24 AM

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Dragon942 wrote:
How close you are to your target is much harder to control then how far away you are from a target. I know that doesn't really make sense in theory, but in practice it really turns out that way, especially with melee professions and jedi in the game. So I would not support a minimum range cap, but instead a huge accuracy penalty like pre-cu.

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I agree with the accuracy penalties, however there should be mitigation based on a players profession and skill levl. A good example would be a 4/0/0/4 marksman would hava a much higher accuracy penalty at close range with a rifle than would a Master Rifleman. The Master would have a mitigation bonus for ranges outside their particular box. I feel this would work because by the time a PC got to the Master level of an Elite skill they "SHOULD" be capable of extraordanary feats just bvecause of an intimate familiarity with their particular weapon. If this was already discussed, well I only read so far lol.

Hello,

As a Master Rifleman I support the old ranged accuracy mods but not a minimum range to use a rifle (dungeon problem primarily). They added a min. Range req. to Sniping Shot, and I have no problems with that as it makes sense, just as the ranged accuracy mods made sense pre-CU.

As for those that dislike me using a pistol special with a rifle: I also am a Pistoleer (obviously) so why is this a problem? Ranged accuracy mods would alleviate alot of these problems I believe. Then, as someone said previously, when a mob/pc closes the gap I will have to pull my sidearm which also, makes sense. I also use my Master bounty hunter specials with a rifle...and a pistol...and a carbine for that matter sometimes. With this temp I can apply all states, ranged KD, root, snare, dot and recover from all states as well.I trained Pistoleer for rootto use with a rifle. Yep. That is the only reason it is in my temp at all. Pistols aren't much interest to me, staying alive when I amfighting something or someone is.So I trained a template that suits my needs. You should do the same and enjoy it.

Thanks to everyone on your views and opinions, they are very much appreciated and exteremly informative.

Keep them coming as there is no new news from the Dev team so far, the more opinions I can present them, thebetter they can evaluate the situation.

I can't stress enough how important you, they players are in matters like this. It is your views that count so keep them coming.

Im a solo person and I believe most are. I dont want to be switching weapons all the time to meet some made-up range. Just give me a penalty I can live with.