Pistoleer Archive

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DomMantell wrote:

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Nifty wrote:

When would a current MP/MR ever want to use a pistol over a rifle? (the answer is more than likely, never.)

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The main reason is if I use a rifle when I'm in a group (at least in PvE) I'll very likely draw agro away from my group's tanks and on to me thanks to the broken hate system.

If I want to get a few powerful hits in to finish off a mob then I'll use my rifle, or if I want to draw agro away from a group member who's taking a lot of damage from the mob. Otherwise I'll use my pistol.

Drawing agro in PvP isn't an issue and I still stand by my assertion that no major changes to the core combat system should come about purely because of problems in PvP.

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Thank you for being the only one to actually read and try to answer my question. Everyone else is in nerf/anti-nerf mode and refuses to actually look at the core of the issue.

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Nifty wrote:

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DomMantell wrote:

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Nifty wrote:

When would a current MP/MR ever want to use a pistol over a rifle? (the answer is more than likely, never.)

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The main reason is if I use a rifle when I'm in a group (at least in PvE) I'll very likely draw agro away from my group's tanks and on to me thanks to the broken hate system.

If I want to get a few powerful hits in to finish off a mob then I'll use my rifle, or if I want to draw agro away from a group member who's taking a lot of damage from the mob. Otherwise I'll use my pistol.

Drawing agro in PvP isn't an issue and I still stand by my assertion that no major changes to the core combat system should come about purely because of problems in PvP.

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Thank you for being the only one to actually read and try to answer my question. Everyone else is in nerf/anti-nerf mode and refuses to actually look at the core of the issue.

So the main reason you'd use a pistol instead of a rifle is because you want to do less damage. Wow, that's a really GOOD reason to want to use a pistol instead of a rifle. Seriously, the only reason you want to use a pistol over a rifle is because another game system is broken (the hate sytem, and the ability for tanks to taunt/hold aggro correctly.) If tanks could hold aggro, then you wouldn't use a pistol.

That one situation isn't enough to justify the current system. A MP/MR in solo PvE would never use a pistol over a rifle.

This isn't a pure PvP problem; it exists in PvE as well as PvP.

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The other reason comes from patch 17:

Creature damage ranges are now larger but average damage done remains the same. This was done to help tankers take less damage on average than the other professions so they may better fulfill their role in combat

If I hold a rifle and get hit by a mob in PvE I take more damage than I do if I'm holding a pistol. I'll do less damage but I'll also take less damage.

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DomMantell wrote:

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Nifty wrote:

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DomMantell wrote:

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Nifty wrote:

When would a current MP/MR ever want to use a pistol over a rifle? (the answer is more than likely, never.)

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The main reason is if I use a rifle when I'm in a group (at least in PvE) I'll very likely draw agro away from my group's tanks and on to me thanks to the broken hate system.

If I want to get a few powerful hits in to finish off a mob then I'll use my rifle, or if I want to draw agro away from a group member who's taking a lot of damage from the mob. Otherwise I'll use my pistol.

Drawing agro in PvP isn't an issue and I still stand by my assertion that no major changes to the core combat system should come about purely because of problems in PvP.

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Thank you for being the only one to actually read and try to answer my question. Everyone else is in nerf/anti-nerf mode and refuses to actually look at the core of the issue.

So the main reason you'd use a pistol instead of a rifle is because you want to do less damage. Wow, that's a really GOOD reason to want to use a pistol instead of a rifle. Seriously, the only reason you want to use a pistol over a rifle is because another game system is broken (the hate sytem, and the ability for tanks to taunt/hold aggro correctly.) If tanks could hold aggro, then you wouldn't use a pistol.

That one situation isn't enough to justify the current system. A MP/MR in solo PvE would never use a pistol over a rifle.

This isn't a pure PvP problem; it exists in PvE as well as PvP.

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The other reason comes from patch 17:

Creature damage ranges are now larger but average damage done remains the same. This was done to help tankers take less damage on average than the other professions so they may better fulfill their role in combat

If I hold a rifle and get hit by a mob in PvE I take more damage than I do if I'm holding a pistol. I'll do less damage but I'll also take less damage.

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True. Is the damage mitigation enough to offset the loss in damage done? Again, I'm looking at a MP/MR character. Switching from a rifle to a pistol will gain you 20 defense (30 rifle to 50 pistol.) Switching from a rifle to a pistol will lose you 45 accuracy (85 rifle to 40 pistol) on top of losing the max damage of the weapon classes. So not only are you losing damage in the weapon, you might now be hitting for less than your weapons max damage (depends on the rest of your template, as well as what you're shooting at.) Gaining 20 defense isn't worth losing 45 accuracy on top of losing around 200 points of max damage. The concept is there, but the implementation and numbers don't make it look very attractive to actually switch in that situation.

Now, if Pistols got dodge bonuses again then I could definitely see how switching to a pistol for more defense would be an attractive option.

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Nifty wrote:
Is the damage mitigation enough to offset the loss in damage done?

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In my opinion, yes it is.

If I end up (unwillingly) tanking an ancient krayt whilst holding a rifle I'll take about 800 damage every 2 seconds (probably taking 1600 damage before my heal macro fires off healing for about 700 damage in which time the damned dragon has dealt another 800 dmg to me). Unless the people I'm grouped with can pull agro from me I'll die pretty fast.

If I realise that there's a huge-ass dragon bearing down on me & switch to my pistol in time, I'll take around 4-500 damage every 2 seconds just about enough that I can heal away with the healing power I get from CM 2-0-0-0 (unless I get stuck in the nice "Invalid Target" bug where the game thinks that I want to heal the dragon instead of defaulting to heal myself ).

The mitigation isn't enough that I could tank the dragon since all I'd be doing would be healing but its enough that I could probably firearm strike it, root or snare it then burst run away.

Edited to add that I'd love to see dodge bonuses return (the code is still there, just go eat some air cake) and assuming it wasn't overpowering I can't see any problems with a small dodge chance whilst holding a pistol.

Message Edited by DomMantell on 06-27-2005 05:10 PM

Well from what Im reading and hearing from rifleman it seems their main reason for not wanting min ranges is that most high end content (DWB, Geo Caves, Avatar, Kashyyk, Vette ect..) are all forcing rifleman close range to fight (not many 30+ meter hallways in the DWB, or geo caves ect). Well the pistoleer in me says "Equip a pistol like we are forced to equip a rifle to fight beyond 35 meters" but the player in me sees their point of view.

IMO the only solution is either get rid of max ranges, or severally (and I mean SEVERALLY) hinder rifle accuracy at close ranges.

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RAMBOW wrote:

Well from what Im reading and hearing from rifleman it seems their main reason for not wanting min ranges is that most high end content (DWB, Geo Caves, Avatar, Kashyyk, Vette ect..) are all forcing rifleman close range to fight (not many 30+ meter hallways in the DWB, or geo caves ect). Well the pistoleer in me says "Equip a pistol like we are forced to equip a rifle to fight beyond 35 meters" but the player in me sees their point of view.

IMO the only solution is either get rid of max ranges, or severally (and I mean SEVERALLY) hinder rifle accuracy at close ranges.

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What about idea of dropping to a weapon with a lower cert to cover ranges that cl 50 and above weapons cant as they would adhere to the range cap model.

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BadgerSmaker wrote:

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RAMBOW wrote:

Well from what Im reading and hearing from rifleman it seems their main reason for not wanting min ranges is that most high end content (DWB, Geo Caves, Avatar, Kashyyk, Vette ect..) are all forcing rifleman close range to fight (not many 30+ meter hallways in the DWB, or geo caves ect). Well the pistoleer in me says "Equip a pistol like we are forced to equip a rifle to fight beyond 35 meters" but the player in me sees their point of view.

IMO the only solution is either get rid of max ranges, or severally (and I mean SEVERALLY) hinder rifle accuracy at close ranges.

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What about idea of dropping to a weapon with a lower cert to cover ranges that cl 50 and above weapons cant as they would adhere to the range cap model.

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Personally I like that pistols cant shoot over 35 meters, it adds a bit of tactics to PvP for me... however it currently makes rifles to overpowered....

How about a Rifleman Certed Rifle that does decent damage (in rifle damage terms) and has a 0-35 meter range... and a pistol that is certed for pistoleer, and has an extended barrel which has a 0-64 meter range... Give us atleast 1 type of pistoleer certed weapon that can counter rifleman, and give them atleast 1 rifle that can shoot up close for their high end PvE.. That would make min ranges work imo.

When all is settled I just want to be able to stand on a level battlefield with only pistols in my inventory.

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Nifty wrote:

raising your defense 20 points reduces the amount of damage you take from a krayt by 40-50%? I find that extremely hard to believe.

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It has nothing to do with the extra 20 points (though that helps somewhat).

Mobs deal damage in ranges, i.e. an Ancient Krayt might hit between 300-800 damage. In patch 17 a change was made to aid tanks so that instead of everyone being hit by the average value (say 550 damage), tanks would be hit at the low end and nukers at the top end.

So whilst I'll get hit for 800 damage whilst holding a rifle, if I'm holding a pistol (designed for up close & personal fighting) I'll take damage in the lower end of the spectrum, i.e. 4-500 damage. A pikeman would be hit for 300 damage since their designated roll is as a tank.

Heres an idea. they have pretty much let all the specials cross ove between all the ranged profs. the same goes for melee. So there is only two combat classes in Star Wars with a multitude of splay styles. a player developes his style through picking and choosing weapon specials to fit their needs. So more or less every p[layer is roughly balanced agaist each other due to all the cross over of specials and how skill mods stack up. Its balance on a literal sense.

Now the devs are attempting to put the profs into a combat role by allocating certain specials over to certain professions. some profs have poor damage while others have great damage. I sa build onto that concept a bit by creating a FRS like combat system that every one can participate in and advance their character through combat. Each profession would be allocated profession specific special moves that would omly be used by that ptof as they advanced in the system. That means a rifleman couldn't jack a pistoleer special for their use and vice versa. To prevent FOTMs in the system a player would only be allowed to choose one profession to specialize in as they advanced.

A balance of powers can then be achieved easily since players arn't allowed to combine moves from diferent profs for overpowering combos. T keep every one lvl though melee and raned skill mods would be distributed evenly accross the board with drops of profession specific mods to help in maintaining the game balance. The devs can then add specials to pistoleer and other professions to up their value without screwing everything up.

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Nifty wrote:

When they said increased damage ranges, I thought they just made the max and min ranges greater, so that a higher defense score meant less damage.

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I thought that is all they did too to give the +500 from CoB some more use and discourage everyone with low defs from tanking. If there is some magical pistol skill working behind the scenes I have never heard of it.

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DomMantell wrote:
As a Pistoleer/Rifleman I've got to add a few things.

The minimum range idea for rifles should never be considered. Go to any dungeon in the game & try and find an area where you are 30-65m from your target. Minimum range wouldn't be a nerf to rifleman, it would destroy the profession entirely if you ever wanted to use rifle in a dungeon. /agree dugeons hae many other issues too

The main problem seems to stem from non-riflemen using the advanced laser rifle for the full 65m range. There are a few solutions to this:

1. Make the advanced laser rifle a master rifleman weapon, preventing non-riflemen from using it to root at 65m+ or at least a cert somewhere in one of the middle trees

2. Add in huge accuracy penalties when using a rifle at close range. This is how it was pre-cu (and yes, you did miss a load with a rifle at clse range) /agree
3. Add massive accuracy penalties when using a weapon class that you're not proficient in. I.e. if I use a carbine with my best carbine specific skills being novice marksman, I shouldn't be able to hit the broadside of a barn, or if I have no rifle skills and use an advanced laser rifle I should face huge problems aiming it. I'm still out on this one
4. As has been suggested in the rifleman forum, make all level 40+ weapons profession specific. If you're not a master rifleman you wouldn't be able to use an advanced laser rifle. If I remember correctly, the best rifle option at this level would be the Tusken rifle which has something like a 40m max range. /agree

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