Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Focus Thread : Balancing Range limitations for Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman.
Carbineer: Supression Fire, Full Auto Area
Rifleman: Conceal Shot, Sniper Shot
Pistoleer: Disarming Shot, Stopping Shot
This would solve the problem of riflemen using Stopping Shot outside of pistol range, and would keep some individual flavor to the weapons themselves while allowing most of the specials to be overlapped.
Also, we have been looking at a way to make the DE-10 worth using over another pistol. Perhaps extend the range of it to 65m? It would give pistoleers a longer range when needed, but you'd be losing a bit of damage potential over the more powerful pistols.
To the person who said Carbineer doesn't warrant the 5 in Crowd Control, you're right. Most likely this is because the Carbineer is rated as a 4 in crowd control. If you want a 5, look at Smuggler.
Slysix wrote:
I still belive the problem is not with the weapon but with the abilities.
Everyone uses a weapon just fine but the ability they use the weapon causes the problem.
BadgerSmaker wrote:
This is a very sensitive issue at the moment so I would appreciate your input.
At the moment, Rifles have no range limitations while PIstols and Carbines do.
Minimum range caps are an extremely unpopular option for Riflemen.
Increasing accuracy penalties could be an option, or capping ranges on specials.
Another issue is the fact that the Advanced Laser Rifle, one of the most powerful weapons in the gameis a cl54 cert and anyone can use it.
So, any ideas?
I think there is no significant reason to change anything right now. Pistoleers have a little lower damage output and less range, but have excellent specials for crowd and attack control. Riflemen have nice damage and nice range, but has rediculous crowd control specials. As far as players who have both rifleman and pistoleer skills, they deserve to have all of the specials, range, and damage because they invested in it.
If anything needs to be done, then upping the SAC by 10 pts on each rifle and slowing a Rifleman's running speed would be a more balanced way to go about things.
I don't really see a huge need to rectify things on this topic though.
Since in the Pistoleer top 5 issues, number 1 mentions that SAC does nothing, I have an idea that will piss off my RM and Commando Brothers (Think someone may have posted an idea like this):
Lets do away with SAC PUP's. I never use SAC PUP's in common group PVE and believe me, I feel it. This would be a sure way to balance weapons as they were intended to be balanced.
BeWary wrote:
GadonThek wrote:
da-bro wrote:
Minimum and Maximum ranges for the various weapons types is the best idea. Encourages more group diversity and gives melee professions a much needed combat boost.
The Rifleman argument is void as far as I'm concerned, about content being melee and needing to be close range. Reason being is if you want to heal, you take Doctor and Combat Medic. You want AoE, you take Commando. You want to shoot at point blank, you take melee or Pistoleer. Simple as. There are fasr too many advantages to using rifles and not enough disadvantages to counter this.
Utterly ridiculous. Healing is optional. AoE's are optional. Being able to fire a weapon at all is not, unless you are a crafter.
How is the argument that locking rifles out of content void? Are you saying that people can no longer rely on rifles as a single profession? You're saying they should be able to rely on pistols as a single option. Under this proposed nerf, a Pistoleer/Squad Leader would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Combat Medic would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Crafter would not be limited in content.
But rifles should be right? Like I say, utterly ridiculous. Oh, and before some smart-arse says "but pistols WOULD be limited in content, 'cause we have a max range, hyuk hyuk", oh that's perfectly true, but in all the above templated(ranged/something else), a Rifle version is screwed inside 20-30m, whereas:
In PvP, a Pistoleer would just whip out a rifle, root and then run into range(oh wait, you can do that now). Rifleman has no root and their snare sucks, meaning they cannot extend the range between themselves and an opponant. Rifle dies. Pistol is only mildly inconvenianced.
In PvE, the same would apply, if that is, any mobs in SWG kited, which they dont. A melee mob charges right into your ideal range, and a ranged mob will move to a point where it is able to attack and stand there like a moron even if a melee'er runs right up and starts pounding on their face. Again however, rifled would be screwed; confined spaces become no-go, and in the wilds rifle users are confined to hunting ranged mobs because melee(without a root and decent snare) will run right into that 20-30m window and be unattackable.
To the person who said he merely wanted other ranged professions to be an option: They are. Perhaps not as attractive an option as rifles, but they are perfectly viable in every situation apart from solo-PvP/very small group PvP. This solution, however, would make rifleman completely useless for anyone who doesnt want their template to include Master Pistoleer.
Ive seen some really, really, really stupid ideas in the two years Ive played this game, but this tops them all. Seriously, this idea is worse than making Jedi a starting profession, and I bloody hate Jedi.Message Edited by GadonThek on 06-26-2005 08:31 PM
Your entire statement is based on the idea that pistoleers can ( and should) compliment their in-class skills with out of class ones to round out their abilities, but that rifle shouldn't have to. Why should rifles be a "stand alone" combat proffesion that requires others to stack to be equivilant ? If my pistoleer is s'posed to switch to a rifle to lay on the long distance love, why shouldn't the rifleman have to switch to a pistol to work up close?The highlighted section is the really important part. I could just as easily say that a rifle with a min range is perfectly viable in every situation apart from solo-PvE. The group would be doing what the riflecan't. That not limiting ranges would leave everyone who isn't carring a rifle out of the game. Now how is that any less fair than the statment you made?
I think this statement is the most telling: Are you saying that people can no longer rely on rifles as a single profession? You're saying they should be able to rely on pistols as a single option.
Heaven forbid another ranged class should even come close to being as self sufficient as rifles is currently, or that rifles should ever not be the total experience it is now. You really need to stop thinking of just the riflemen and think a little more about the game as a whole.
Your whole argument falls apart when you consider that the very reason this argument has arisen is not because Rifleman is self-sufficient, but because a Rifleman can use Pistoleer abilities outwith the range at which pistols can operate. So in fact, the problem is not that Riflemen are overpowered, the problem is that Pistoleer specials are overpowered when stacked with rifle ranges. As I have already said, many solutions have been proposed for this problem that do NOT involve making Riflemen a totally useless profession, which is what will happen if you add in a short-range area within which Riflemen cannot even fire their weapon.
You say that, as Pistols must use Rifles at long range, so should Rifles use Pistols at short range, but you fail to take into account the fact that Pistoleers need only fire a single shot with a rifle before they can close to their perfect range thus suffering very little reduction in damage ouput and special application, whereas if Riflemen were forced to use Pistols at shorter ranges, they would be using pistols all the time at a massive disadvantage in all terms: damage, speed, accuracy.
As it stands, no Pistoleer is forced to take up Rifleman, they merely have to equip an ALR for a few seconds to apply a root. These changes would force any rifle-based template to include Master Pistoleer, because that;s the only weapon they will be using in all but a handful of instances. That, in turn, means that any character who wishes to use rifles with a different template is effectively told "tough". One of the most recognisable character archetypes would be a Master Rifleman, Master Ranger. The Hunter. That template would be totally unworkable if rifles had a minimum range.
Of course, if Pistoleers want to go with the original CU design documents and have a minimum range cap as well as a maximum, Im sure Riflemen would be quite happy to oblige. Just dont complain when you're being Snipershotted from 125m.....
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Nope, the DOT would not be a special, it would be a natural DOT on pistols (That can be experimented on).
-The problem will always be damage. Even when before the CU pistoleers and everyone else was asking for a speed cap on rifles, this way a damage issue.
Pistols getting 15m where only they and meelers can hit will not balance pistol, infact it may just increase the likelyhood of people picking up meleer.
Limiting Specials will not work either, because pistols will still be out classed by the fact that all they will be used for is to stick a root and then switched to a rifle. Do we really want combat like that? Or do we want combat were people use pistols 100% of the time and carbines 100% of the time and rifles 100% of the time. Switching all the time seems silly to me. The only way to do this is to find a neiche for each weapon.
Yes they would switch to the rifle but then which abilties would they be using with the rifle? Rifle abilites...that would mean they have invested the skill points to get the abilites. If your target isin range of your pistol and you do stick a root. Why would you swtich to a rifle when the damage over time for a pistol will outstrip that ofa rifle (riflemen tend to run out of action pretty quick if they spam the specials).
I beleive if we put a generic ranged weapon that everyone can use, you'll still have balance problems because people will still be able to apply their learned abilites to said weapon. So the problem is not with the weapons, it's the abilites we use with the weapons.
We want people to use the appropriate weapon for their appropriate assigned task. So if that entails switching weapons if they're switching tasksI guess so because that's what defines the different profession.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
I just wish to point out that the old system still had the heavy damage dealing Rifle as king. Accuracy penelties don't work.
The problem is that Pistols, Rifles, and Carbines are all versions of eachother. Until this is changed and Carbines, Rifles, and Pistols are made into something unique, one of these 3 weapon types will dominate combat. (Unless the Dev's give my Commando Brothers some love, then you are all up ----'s creek!)
Making Stats diffrent on a weapon does not change the fact that the weapons are variations of each other. One weapon will always reign supreme as long as this system of "same weapons with diffrent stats" exists.
Now I agree with some of your ideas to balance crap: Removing min/max ranges and certing the ALR would make things alot more equal. But still if we did all that you said people would perfer Rifles or Carbines over Pistols because pistols just are weaker damage dealers (Upfront with rifles &Overtime with Carbines).
Now I know myself and my Rifleman Brethren will always say, "we are the DD kings shut your dammed pie-hole!" But I also recognize pistols are a weapon and the purpose of a weapon is to deal damage, that is why I came up with the DOT idea. A DOT would make Pistol's a good damage dealer without stealing the Rifleman's Direct Damage role. A DOT would give Pistols a unique identity that would make you want to use them, unlike keepingthem as the ugly sister of carbines and rifles (Like how the range limitation idea does).
The only solution to the problem is asking "How can we make it so that everyone wants to useevery weapon?" That is Balance IMHO.
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-26-2005 04:10 PM
Very true!! The old system wasn't perfect, and rifles did still win in the long run, but I think it had a good general foundation to build on .. much better than destroying the rifle/carbineer classes .. cause that's what will happen if a range limitation is put on them .. everyone will just simply become a pistoleer.
If you take the old penalty system and really tweak it (make the penalties very stiff or much higher action costs) then I think we will have some balance.
The pistoleer will still shine up close and personal .. while the carbineer and rifleman can still shoot their way to a better postion allowing them to get within their weapons ideal range to back up the pistoleer who is holding the aggro in close quaters. Still the pistoleer can manage to throw down fire as well (yes at 65m at a penalty) untill they can get into their weapons kill zone.
Balanced!! Each class has a defined kill zone (a zone in which their weapon shoots at peak performance with bonuses to accuracy). Each class can still shoot from any range up to 65m but will suffer BIG penalties if it's outside their weapons designed range. Nobody gets gimped and nobody gets left behind.
The rest of this post is filled with awesome ideas to bring "uniqueness" to their class.
- Pistoleer - Huge defense bonuses, ability to hold aggro, duelist stance type special, best shooters on the run, no weapon encubrance, big melee defense
- Carbineer - Very little penalties, lowest SAC costs, small weapon encumbrance, big melee and ranged defense
- Rifles - Big damage, big ranged defense, big bonuses using prone
Glad to see the thread taking a more civil tone, it makes very interesting reading and gives great insight onto the opinions and needs of the playerbase. Keep it coming.
I'll continue to edit my original post as more suggestions arise.
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-200502:01 AM
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-2005 02:01 AM
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-2005 02:02 AM
First: Min Range is not an option!
- Remove ALL min/max ranges (65m cap on ranged weapons) for all ranged weapons
- Bring back the pre cu accuracy penalties for using a weapon outside it's kill zone
- Penalties/bonuses for shooting while moving or using a posture
- Remove the ranged arms from the game (or balance them with huge action costs)
Though this will not prevent the usage of certain pistoleer specials by rifleman, which is in appereantly one of the major reasons this needed call for balancing the three ranged profession is needed thus:
- Tie certain specials to ranges (NOT weapons), like firearm strike.
This way the usage of specials across different weapons is still possible but the abuseage useage of eg stoppingshot from 65m distance is not possible anymore.
This might be also the most simple way to code it, since PRE CU accuracy penalties already existed as well as while moving/ postures penalites ( and the "accuray while moving attachments would be come usefull in the game too) and the code for specials with ranged limitations does already exist too.
Besides this, there is still the issue for pistoleers that despite using their weapon profession, they sometimes are better off using a rifle than a pistols, as well damage wise, which is as it should be, but as well speed and accuracy wise.
This can be balanced by increasing the pistol related modifiers for the pistoleer, which are currently to low, as was one of the TOP issues shortly after the introductin of the CU but hasn't been touched by the DEVs yet.
With a high accur and speed mods pistol related they can mezz far far faster and accurater as with a rifle as it should be.
If they wanted to do more damage, they could still switch to a rifle or a carbine and be where they are now.
WiseBobo wrote:
Pistoleers need to realize that you chose a crowd-control profession; not a nuking one, not a super-kick ass I own you in duels one, but a profession that can keep a mob down. That is the sole reason of your class; you should not be expecting to kick ass in duels against a rifleman because that is not what you decided to grind and nor is it the intended purpose of the Pistoleer. Take a look at the combat diagram; Rifles are for nuking, pistols are not.
http://img137.echo.cx/img137/615/combatdiagnew8sh.jpg
There is no need to balance classes that do not share the same roles. Quit trying to make your profession something that it is not.
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-200502:01 AM
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-2005 02:01 AM
Message Edited by WiseBobo on 06-27-2005 02:02 AM
I agree completely, but that diagram also has rifle getting ripped apart at close range ( it's the reason they get crap for melee defense and a pile of ranged def, they just aren't s'posed to be up close), and it doesn't happen. Their "nuke" ability overcomes their lack of melee defense, just as the ALR overcomes our range limitation. The issue isn't power, it's range. Seriously, if pistoleers can work effectively in the same range as rifles it's not good for rifles. If I can effectively CC at long range, who needs a nuke? Just like if a rifle cannuke at all ranges, who needs a short range CC specialist?
Ideally we'd all like to have a place, a moment in the sun, without stepping on each others toes.