Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Focus Thread : Balancing Range limitations for Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Giftmacher wrote:
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
If you want to balance range lets go the opposite dirrection. Instead of limiting weapons let all weapons hit at 65m.
I garuntee you if we go to minimum ranges nothing will be solved. Rifles will be made weaker, rifleman will be a worthless profession, and everyone will be a Master Carbineer instead of Rifleman in their template.
Making everyone hit from 65m wont balance anything (Because of my previous post, weapons aint balanced period), but it is better then destroying one profession.
I think it is sometimes difficult to feel the diffence in SAC at the moment particularly with PuPs complicating things, so yes I would support a long hard look at that.
However on your point (above)about heavy weapons, just how good/bad are they, and is the situation improved by having these weapons tied to a specific skill box?
Gift.
Heavy Weapons are screwed because they are slow, deal mediocre damage, and even after being SAC PUPed take alot of action(BTW a Plasma Thrower can't be PUPed at all). When they fix the AOE bug and if they deal full AOE damage they will be quite a good weapon class, but currently all they are is an interesting dabble for a Crowd Controller.
Ouch, well I guess they need to be put to oneside for seperate consideration in this discussion, because that is badly borked. I had no idea it was so bad, a definite case for a serious shot in the arm.
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-25-2005 05:15 PM
Slysix wrote:
From what I'm seeing Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman are balanced...in a stand alone profession.
The imbalance occurs when cross profession abilites are used with a weapon not designed for the range the ability was designed for. The root shot is not a rifleman ability but can be used with a rifle. Sniper shot is not is a pistoleers ability but can be used using a pistol(although I'd question why one would go prone that close).
How would limiting special abilites to be weapon specific affect the balance issue?
Giftmacher wrote:
Slysix wrote:
From what I'm seeing Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman are balanced...in a stand alone profession.
The imbalance occurs when cross profession abilites are used with a weapon not designed for the range the ability was designed for. The root shot is not a rifleman ability but can be used with a rifle. Sniper shot is not is a pistoleers ability but can be used using a pistol(although I'd question why one would go prone that close).
How would limiting special abilites to be weapon specific affect the balance issue?
I suspect that's probably a large part of the case, it's always the template combinations that cause trouble in this game. Both a strength and something of a weakness.
Gift.
See I disagree, I'm strange in that I look at things in a diffrent way then everyone else, so I'll explain.
My Belief is that the current set up with specials and cross-using is awesome. The problem is that Weapons are not Unique at all. Instead we have the same type of weapon with diffrent stats, well this don't work, it never worked and was always the reason why Rifles were always used. Because Pistols and Carbs have always been weaker versions of rifles.
Something like this should be done
My long term weapon proposal:
-No weapons other then Carbines, Pikes,and Heavys deal elemental damage. Carbines/Pikes (Unexperimented) deal 50% elemental & 50% Energy or Kenetic. Heavys deal 100% elemental damage (This means elemental damage needs to be fixed).
-Pistols/One-handed get a natural 100-200 dmg (Depends on experimentation) DOT with each weapon. Pistols/One-handed can dual weild but each weapon deals 2/3'rds of their direct damage then. The DOT's are weapon specific, so if a Pistoleer dual weilds a Geonsian and a FWG5, the FWG5 and Genosian DOT's stack.
-Rifles/Swords Deal 25% more direct damage then pistols/one-handed, 15% more then carbines/pikes, and equal to 5% more then heavys.
This way every weapon would have a use and a tactical benifit, even with range limitations there will be no tactical benifit because 80m is just too small of an area. My idea is a little weird but should show you how to think. We need to think of ways to make Rifles, Carbines, and Pistols unique, not how to make them the same but with diffrent Stats and ranges.
TAfirehawk wrote:
Well my take on the issue is either have range limitations for all profs or have none at all. It is absolutely totally 100% unacceptable for one prof to cover every other prof's range and more. The Devs got scared because of one prof being such cry babies about a nerf to their uberness (which they should have never been solo'ing Krayts, etc. anyways) but in turn now have nearly destroyed the other two ranged profs.
Personally, a Carbineer and Rifleman should not be able to engage in 'normal' combat in close/melee range.....there is a reason these profs are RANGED PROFS. The major problemis too much content is melee in SWG right now (the Devs talked about changing that but have not done it yet) but at the same time there are plenty of skill points leftover after Carbineer or Rifleman to get 'reasonably' prepared for close/melee combat.
In the end, if range limitations are not totally taken away or totally implemented for every prof, then SOE should just delete Pistoleer and Carbineer.
BTW, those Rifleman or even Carbineers that complain about not being able to participate in dungeon/melee content, well choose another prof that is meant to be effective at close range or diversify your template or get a BALANCED GROUP.
Well I use to have much respect for the correspondent's .. but this post is just totally unfounded and unrealistic.
I guess you fail to see that the ranged limitation would effect the carbineer's as well. 15m min range for a carbineer can be a death sentence if your inside ANY close quaters when you factor in not just the range, but any line of sightissues .. now increase that min range for the rifleman .. and you have just killed your riflemen.
Stay out of close quaters you say, then I guess all riflemen and carbineers must resign from their faction .. cause they won't be able to participate in any more base raids or participate in any dungeon or anything fun. Your only calling will be on the wide open plains of tat.
I stand by my previous solution:
- Remove ALL min/max ranges (65m cap on ranged weapons) for all ranged weapons
- Bring back the pre cu accuracy penalties for using a weapon outside it's kill zone
- Penalties/bonuses for shooting while moving or using a posture
- Cert the ALR somewhere in the rifle trees
- Remove the ranged arms from the game (or balance them with huge action costs)
Keep up the great work Badger and Ack!!
Ackehece wrote:
This is not a nerf of just rifleman. It is a nerf of Rangers, Squad Leaders, Commandos, Combat Medics, Single Craft professionals etc... anyone who wants a Rifle combat ability but can not fit pistols or melee into their template.
Here's my two credits....
Based on current game mechanics, I think the best idea is to have large accuracy/speed penalties for using a rifle within melee range.
Why not carbines you ask? Well, if you look at the intended purpose of a "carbine" type weapon, they are designed for CQB, while still having a decent amount of range. Now, you could give carbines a minor accuracy penalty for use within melee range and pistols having no penalty.
Here's another thing to consider, how does a cybernetic arm increase your range? I understand the accuracy bonus, but a gun can only shoot so far, holding it differently won't change that.
And while we're on the topic of ranges...why is it that pikemen can hit things at 60m with a stick?
Don't give the weapon types a minimum range, give them penalties, in some cases like the 6 foot long t21 large penalties, to accuracy and speed.
And shouldn't there be a hard cap on max ranges too? Really, a rifleman that can outrange a turret?
Glyndo Malina, Retired Elder Smuggler 
Good to see that we now have the full set of Correspondents here now. 
At the risk of repeating myself though, I do think we need to focus on making weapons best for their ideal ranges, rather than prohibit their use at certain ranges. Why can't we just make it so you are 2/3s as effective outside your ideal range, reducing to 1/3 at the extreme. That way a ranged prof can always use their favoured weapon where they like, but will have significant inducement to change weapons in a tight spot.
I see the only thing really needing a cap to be the most powerful specials, if you want to use them with different weapons then fine, but keep them tied to their parent prof's range so accuracy/effectiveness comes into play if they want to mix and match. Make people think about the space around them with regard to the weapons they choose, but allow them to use an unsuitable weapon to try to dig themselves out of a tight spot if they need to. The result should be that they get a few seconds grace to extricate themselves from trouble when needed, but end up with a serious slap if they try to stand their ground with no change in tactics.
Other things that need to be looked at in association with this, master weapons aren't good enough compared to CL54s; this needs to change. We will need to consider other combat profs in this too though, Ranger, Doc, CH, BE? Will likely need master weapons to compensate.
Dungeons, if we insist on making rifles being very poor at close range, then we probably need more open air content, many dungeons are cramped as it is and there should be abenefit in taking a rifleman on a good deal of raids, at the very least a rifle with less power but amore flexable range would help.
Whatever the case, masters should have access to the hardest hitting specials/weapons and be most effective within their ideal range, and therefore play very distinct roles within a group on any raid.
Just to tie up, it's getting a bit heated, let's not ruin a good discussion of ideas (and I'd like to remind people that it is just ideas not demands at the moment) by feeding the trolls. 
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-25-2005 12:56 PM
The Rifleman argument is void as far as I'm concerned, about content being melee and needing to be close range. Reason being is if you want to heal, you take Doctor and Combat Medic. You want AoE, you take Commando. You want to shoot at point blank, you take melee or Pistoleer. Simple as. There are fasr too many advantages to using rifles and not enough disadvantages to counter this.
The above thread I made over in the Rifleman Forums, really early this morning. The thread is young and still very civilized. I have linked this thread in the Carbineer, Commando, and now Pistoleer forum.
Once this idea of mine has been fleshed out by player input, I plan on presenting this over into this thread or maybe, if I'm lucky and it looks great, a Correspondent would present it.
I'll see what it can do, but what I do not want to see are the Ranged Professions Nerfing the Bejeezus out of each other. At a moment when ranged fighters FINALLY have general superiority, we're trying to Nerf ourselves back into Pre-CU status.
"If they can be fooled, they can be killed."
da-bro wrote:
Minimum and Maximum ranges for the various weapons types is the best idea. Encourages more group diversity and gives melee professions a much needed combat boost.
The Rifleman argument is void as far as I'm concerned, about content being melee and needing to be close range. Reason being is if you want to heal, you take Doctor and Combat Medic. You want AoE, you take Commando. You want to shoot at point blank, you take melee or Pistoleer. Simple as. There are fasr too many advantages to using rifles and not enough disadvantages to counter this.
Utterly ridiculous. Healing is optional. AoE's are optional. Being able to fire a weapon at all is not, unless you are a crafter.
How is the argument that locking rifles out of content void? Are you saying that people can no longer rely on rifles as a single profession? You're saying they should be able to rely on pistols as a single option. Under this proposed nerf, a Pistoleer/Squad Leader would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Combat Medic would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Crafter would not be limited in content.
But rifles should be right? Like I say, utterly ridiculous. Oh, and before some smart-arse says "but pistols WOULD be limited in content, 'cause we have a max range, hyuk hyuk", oh that's perfectly true, but in all the above templated(ranged/something else), a Rifle version is screwed inside 20-30m, whereas:
In PvP, a Pistoleer would just whip out a rifle, root and then run into range(oh wait, you can do that now). Rifleman has no root and their snare sucks, meaning they cannot extend the range between themselves and an opponant. Rifle dies. Pistol is only mildly inconvenianced.
In PvE, the same would apply, if that is, any mobs in SWG kited, which they dont. A melee mob charges right into your ideal range, and a ranged mob will move to a point where it is able to attack and stand there like a moron even if a melee'er runs right up and starts pounding on their face. Again however, rifled would be screwed; confined spaces become no-go, and in the wilds rifle users are confined to hunting ranged mobs because melee(without a root and decent snare) will run right into that 20-30m window and be unattackable.
To the person who said he merely wanted other ranged professions to be an option: They are. Perhaps not as attractive an option as rifles, but they are perfectly viable in every situation apart from solo-PvP/very small group PvP. This solution, however, would make rifleman completely useless for anyone who doesnt want their template to include Master Pistoleer.
Ive seen some really, really, really stupid ideas in the two years Ive played this game, but this tops them all. Seriously, this idea is worse than making Jedi a starting profession, and I bloody hate Jedi.
Message Edited by GadonThek on 06-26-2005 08:31 PM
Karbal wrote:
TAfirehawk wrote:
Well my take on the issue is either have range limitations for all profs or have none at all. It is absolutely totally 100% unacceptable for one prof to cover every other prof's range and more. The Devs got scared because of one prof being such cry babies about a nerf to their uberness (which they should have never been solo'ing Krayts, etc. anyways) but in turn now have nearly destroyed the other two ranged profs.
Personally, a Carbineer and Rifleman should not be able to engage in 'normal' combat in close/melee range.....there is a reason these profs are RANGED PROFS. The major problemis too much content is melee in SWG right now (the Devs talked about changing that but have not done it yet) but at the same time there are plenty of skill points leftover after Carbineer or Rifleman to get 'reasonably' prepared for close/melee combat.
In the end, if range limitations are not totally taken away or totally implemented for every prof, then SOE should just delete Pistoleer and Carbineer.
BTW, those Rifleman or even Carbineers that complain about not being able to participate in dungeon/melee content, well choose another prof that is meant to be effective at close range or diversify your template or get a BALANCED GROUP.
Well I use to have much respect for the correspondent's .. but this post is just totally unfounded and unrealistic.
I guess you fail to see that the ranged limitation would effect the carbineer's as well. 15m min range for a carbineer can be a death sentence if your inside ANY close quaters when you factor in not just the range, but any line of sightissues .. now increase that min range for the rifleman .. and you have just killed your riflemen.
Stay out of close quaters you say, then I guess all riflemen and carbineers must resign from their faction .. cause they won't be able to participate in any more base raids or participate in any dungeon or anything fun. Your only calling will be on the wide open plains of tat.
I stand by my previous solution:
- Remove ALL min/max ranges (65m cap on ranged weapons) for all ranged weapons
- Bring back the pre cu accuracy penalties for using a weapon outside it's kill zone
- Penalties/bonuses for shooting while moving or using a posture
- Cert the ALR somewhere in the rifle trees
- Remove the ranged arms from the game (or balance them with huge action costs)
Keep up the great work Badger and Ack!!
I just wish to point out that the old system still had the heavy damage dealing Rifle as king. Accuracy penelties don't work.
The problem is that Pistols, Rifles, and Carbines are all versions of eachother. Until this is changed and Carbines, Rifles, and Pistols are made into something unique, one of these 3 weapon types will dominate combat. (Unless the Dev's give my Commando Brothers some love, then you are all up ----'s creek!)
Making Stats diffrent on a weapon does not change the fact that the weapons are variations of each other. One weapon will always reign supreme as long as this system of "same weapons with diffrent stats" exists.
Now I agree with some of your ideas to balance crap: Removing min/max ranges and certing the ALR would make things alot more equal. But still if we did all that you said people would perfer Rifles or Carbines over Pistols because pistols just are weaker damage dealers (Upfront with rifles &Overtime with Carbines).
Now I know myself and my Rifleman Brethren will always say, "we are the DD kings shut your dammed pie-hole!" But I also recognize pistols are a weapon and the purpose of a weapon is to deal damage, that is why I came up with the DOT idea. A DOT would make Pistol's a good damage dealer without stealing the Rifleman's Direct Damage role. A DOT would give Pistols a unique identity that would make you want to use them, unlike keepingthem as the ugly sister of carbines and rifles (Like how the range limitation idea does).
The only solution to the problem is asking "How can we make it so that everyone wants to useevery weapon?" That is Balance IMHO.
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 06-26-2005 04:10 PM
GadonThek wrote:
da-bro wrote:
Minimum and Maximum ranges for the various weapons types is the best idea. Encourages more group diversity and gives melee professions a much needed combat boost.
The Rifleman argument is void as far as I'm concerned, about content being melee and needing to be close range. Reason being is if you want to heal, you take Doctor and Combat Medic. You want AoE, you take Commando. You want to shoot at point blank, you take melee or Pistoleer. Simple as. There are fasr too many advantages to using rifles and not enough disadvantages to counter this.
Utterly ridiculous. Healing is optional. AoE's are optional. Being able to fire a weapon at all is not, unless you are a crafter.
How is the argument that locking rifles out of content void? Are you saying that people can no longer rely on rifles as a single profession? You're saying they should be able to rely on pistols as a single option. Under this proposed nerf, a Pistoleer/Squad Leader would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Combat Medic would not be limited in content. A Pistoleer/Crafter would not be limited in content.
But rifles should be right? Like I say, utterly ridiculous. Oh, and before some smart-arse says "but pistols WOULD be limited in content, 'cause we have a max range, hyuk hyuk", oh that's perfectly true, but in all the above templated(ranged/something else), a Rifle version is screwed inside 20-30m, whereas:
In PvP, a Pistoleer would just whip out a rifle, root and then run into range(oh wait, you can do that now). Rifleman has no root and their snare sucks, meaning they cannot extend the range between themselves and an opponant. Rifle dies. Pistol is only mildly inconvenianced.
In PvE, the same would apply, if that is, any mobs in SWG kited, which they dont. A melee mob charges right into your ideal range, and a ranged mob will move to a point where it is able to attack and stand there like a moron even if a melee'er runs right up and starts pounding on their face. Again however, rifled would be screwed; confined spaces become no-go, and in the wilds rifle users are confined to hunting ranged mobs because melee(without a root and decent snare) will run right into that 20-30m window and be unattackable.
To the person who said he merely wanted other ranged professions to be an option: They are. Perhaps not as attractive an option as rifles, but they are perfectly viable in every situation apart from solo-PvP/very small group PvP. This solution, however, would make rifleman completely useless for anyone who doesnt want their template to include Master Pistoleer.
Ive seen some really, really, really stupid ideas in the two years Ive played this game, but this tops them all. Seriously, this idea is worse than making Jedi a starting profession, and I bloody hate Jedi.
Message Edited by GadonThek on 06-26-2005 08:31 PM
Your entire statement is based on the idea that pistoleers can ( and should) compliment their in-class skills with out of class ones to round out their abilities, but that rifle shouldn't have to. Why should rifles be a "stand alone" combat proffesion that requires others to stack to be equivilant ? If my pistoleer is s'posed to switch to a rifle to lay on the long distance love, why shouldn't the rifleman have to switch to a pistol to work up close?
The highlighted section is the really important part. I could just as easily say that a rifle with a min range is perfectly viable in every situation apart from solo-PvE. The group would be doing what the riflecan't. That not limiting ranges would leave everyone who isn't carring a rifle out of the game. Now how is that any less fair than the statment you made?
I think this statement is the most telling: Are you saying that people can no longer rely on rifles as a single profession? You're saying they should be able to rely on pistols as a single option.
Heaven forbid another ranged class should even come close to being as self sufficient as rifles is currently, or that rifles should ever not be the total experience it is now. You really need to stop thinking of just the riflemen and think a little more about the game as a whole.