Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: Dual Wielding Pistols
MisterLeebo
Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:48 am
#144
At this current state of the game, I think Dual Wield should be a Master level skill because that allows it to be a powerful and useful skill. Consider how far behind we are in damage to the melee professions. Due to the combination of light-none AP weapons AND low maximum damage on our weapons, we need our specials to be powerful and to work to play the end-game. Now there are several schools of thought arrising that need to be unified, which I mainlycategorizeinto Pistoleer/ Smugglers, Pistoleer/ Commandos, Pistoleer/ Bounty Hunters, and then just Pistoleers. Speaking with experience as the Pistoleer/ Bounty Hunter, I think we take pride in the fact that we've capped accuracy and speed and feel comfortable in taking huge hits in those areas because we can take it, effectively doubling our damage with no detrements. This is highly unlikely to happen. Pistoleer/ Smugglers are probably looking forward to an easier access to dual wielding, which becomes severely restricted if its placed at Master level. You would probably have to sacrifice smuggler for pistoleer, but that's not a Pistoleer problem. Pistoleer/ Commandos are probably tired of their heavy-hitting weapons being slow and inaccurate, which is why the pistoleer line is nice. A slow and inaccurate dual wield skill like the Pistoleer/ Bounty Hunters want would probably not be as strong as normal commando weapons, and would probably have the same effect on things. Normal Pistoleers are probably in it for the looks since they haven't specialized with another profession for combat and thus aren't focused on damage, especially since when you Master, nothing left but to look cool or start some place else.
As far as what weapons can be equipped, ideally I would want the weapons I have now to be usable dual wield, because even then I'll have to add a couple more high-level guns to my arsenal and this dual wield thing has the potential to be very expensive to us Pistoleers. The only other path I logically see would be guns with the same serial number (crated guns). This sadly reduces produces two levels of weapons, regular guns that have just been crated together with no redeeming attributes, and legendary weapons where the Krayt just happened to drop enough pearls of a single serial to fashion one set of dual wieldable weapons, and even then you could never get them sliced for they would change. All access is the easiest way, but has the potential to be exploited so its really a question of now or the long road?
I also don't believe our specials should be disabled, personally. The standard attack is like a harsh wind to the HAMs of the enemy, and is unlikely to kill him/ her/ it in your lifetime. Even doubling its output does not exceed our damage with a single Stopping Shot. Turning off Specials would make dual wielding as popular as fighting on mounts (and we all know how popular mounts are now) and its just not as fun which just so happens to be the point of dual wield. Turning off some specials is just a recipe for disaster. Regardless of what it is, we'd complain and want it back, and agreeing to it before we know which specials are being targeted is like signing a contract with the devil (not that SOE is the devil, its a metaphor). In general, we'd want all of our old tactics to still work, only squared, and removing specials that mess with those tactics will cause alot of friction in the Pistoleer community. Thankfully we can always go back to single wield, and alternate when the mood hits us. For example, if using other professions pistol specials is disabled while dual wielding, you can just apply, say Eye Shot and Torso Shot to blind and burn, then switch to your increased damage output dual wields and apply the rest of your specials.
I didn't stop to read every single post, so if it sounds remarkably similiar to one of yours, its because we're both pyschicly connected anyway and thus no one is to blame.
acmtalk
Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:35 pm
#145
well Just give it to master pistollers, and no need yto cut speed, Actually with dual pistol we might be able to bring the damage we should
MaximDakaar
Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:31 am
#146
I'm a pistoleer thrice removed... soooo.. here's my input 
I include some RL comparison in here, but if you think about it... there HAS to be a little RL or the game would be retarded 
Where to put it; Master?
Master is a great idea. A novice pistoleer is just learning the ways of a pistol and should JUST be getting comfortable using 1 pistol, let alone 2.
Speed Bonuses
Nah, we dont need a speed bonus. Theres no point considering we cap speed on almost every pistol... well.. with BH pistols. If pistol 1 is 2.2 speed and pistol 2 is 1.9, have them fire at their respective rates.. easy enough
Damage Bonuses
Damage bonus? duh! We're using 2 pistols, therefore twice the damage. Dont throw in any "pistol damage +x" crap, if thats what was intended.
Accuracy Penalty
Definetly an accuracy penalty is in check. Firing 2 guns has twice as much recoil,thuslowering accuracy.
Movement Speed Penalty
Pffff... no, thats dumb. While the penalty may not be drastic, its just more coding for the Dev's to work on before the release of it, prolonging our long awaited dual wielding.
Both weapons of same type
Eh..... Well... Hermmm... It's not really a big deal. From a RL comparison, it shouldn't be done because of the difference in weapon weight and weapon kick... BUT, this is starwars.. and if all was all based of what was "real", the game wouldn't be.
Both weapons have same serial
Bad idea, No dual de-10's would be pretty lame... and personally... thats what i'm looking forward to
Limited Special Use
I could see where this is a good thing... if you have someone with 2 mod.republics hammering healthshot 1,2 and torso... this could be pretty out of whack.. so, maybe something along the lines of removing theDOT specials for the sake of balance.
No Special Use
Bad idea as well. No special use is like givingsomeone an exceptional power hammer and telling them not to use it. If you take specials from dual wield, then using a single pistol will do MUUUCH more than holding 2 guns would... I doubt anyone would use 2 weapons and it would have wasted LOTS of time and disappointed many, many people.
Myself and a few guildmates were thinking about this, and for the sake of balance, while dual wielding, take away the dodge stat or something... either completely negate dodge, or half it or something... just an idea
That's what I'm thinkin... Hope we can see this come out soon
Koch20
Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:19 am
#147
sorry if someone already posted this, i'm to lazy to read through all the pages. I think the HAM costs alone especially post-revamp would be enough of a down side. gimme 2 de-10's I say 
"To tired to attack" Ciry 
Xconxors
Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:30 pm
#149
Pistols are so horribly nerfed, than anything short of shooting from 2 pistols (my choice) without penalty would be insulting.
Shooting 2 pistols at once WOULD result in twice the ham costs- I can live with that.
Cmon SOE. Throw us a bone..
Blackjack_Nova
Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:37 pm
#150
My vote is:
Damage Bonuses
Both Weapons must be same type
Damage Bonuses
Both Weapons must be same type
There should not be a "downside". Just like a rifleman or other weapon weilder should not have a downside for using there weapons.
MilamberDragon
Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:13 pm
#151
My thoughts on this subject
Dual Wield - I have Two Schools of thought on this subject One being not much of a negitive hit and Two being less of a negitive but harder hitting ot our cost per shot/special.
----------------------
School of Thought Two:
----------------------
Same pistols ala two DX2s or two DE-18s (what we all want)
Two Pistols Shot.
No Negitives if same weapons use.
If difference in weapons stats adverage them round to the highest and used for both.
HAMs are adverage and highest is use.
5% Increase in Damage after adveraged for both MIN and MAX.
Different Pistols ala One DX2 or One FWG5 or One DE-18, One Rebublic
Two Pistols Shot, uses damage/type from each respectively.
5-10% Decrease to Accuracy.
5-10% Decrease in speed.
5% Decrease in speed if both pistols have been sliced for speed.
Damage uses each pistol respectively same with there respective damage type.
See Note about different pistols at end.
----------------------
School of Thought Two:
----------------------
Same Pistols ala two DX2s or two DE-18s
Acts like one pistol shot but hits for DOUBLE HAM cost, of adveraged HAM cost.
5% Decrease to Accuracy overall due to Two pistols wielded.
5% Decrease to Speed overall due to Two pistols wielded.
One pistol damage but 5-10% increace to both MIN and MAX adveraged.
Different Pistols ala DX2 and DE-18
Two Pistols shot, uses damage from each respectively.
5% Decrease to Accuracy per each weapons accuracy.
5% Decrease in Speed per each weapons speed before.
10-20% Increase in HAM costs for each shot/attach/special.
See Note about different pistols at end.
-----------------------------------------
Note about Different Pistols: This is a tactical choice, we know what we are getting into by duel wielding so if we wield two different pistols we know it will be harder for us but that is our choice for a tactical reason.
-----------------------------------------
This are my own ideas on this cool subject. I would just love to see Dual Wield in for Master Pistoleer.
Dual Wield - I have Two Schools of thought on this subject One being not much of a negitive hit and Two being less of a negitive but harder hitting ot our cost per shot/special.
----------------------
School of Thought Two:
----------------------
Same pistols ala two DX2s or two DE-18s (what we all want)
Two Pistols Shot.
No Negitives if same weapons use.
If difference in weapons stats adverage them round to the highest and used for both.
HAMs are adverage and highest is use.
5% Increase in Damage after adveraged for both MIN and MAX.
Different Pistols ala One DX2 or One FWG5 or One DE-18, One Rebublic
Two Pistols Shot, uses damage/type from each respectively.
5-10% Decrease to Accuracy.
5-10% Decrease in speed.
5% Decrease in speed if both pistols have been sliced for speed.
Damage uses each pistol respectively same with there respective damage type.
See Note about different pistols at end.
----------------------
School of Thought Two:
----------------------
Same Pistols ala two DX2s or two DE-18s
Acts like one pistol shot but hits for DOUBLE HAM cost, of adveraged HAM cost.
5% Decrease to Accuracy overall due to Two pistols wielded.
5% Decrease to Speed overall due to Two pistols wielded.
One pistol damage but 5-10% increace to both MIN and MAX adveraged.
Different Pistols ala DX2 and DE-18
Two Pistols shot, uses damage from each respectively.
5% Decrease to Accuracy per each weapons accuracy.
5% Decrease in Speed per each weapons speed before.
10-20% Increase in HAM costs for each shot/attach/special.
See Note about different pistols at end.
-----------------------------------------
Note about Different Pistols: This is a tactical choice, we know what we are getting into by duel wielding so if we wield two different pistols we know it will be harder for us but that is our choice for a tactical reason.
-----------------------------------------
This are my own ideas on this cool subject. I would just love to see Dual Wield in for Master Pistoleer.
Ilfe
Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:29 am
#152
LordMaxx wrote:
Yes, great to see the poll thread bumped just about daily...but some of you are cheating signing more than once!
My question is when the developers do work on Dual wielding pistols, what should the mechanics behind it be? Im sure they already have some ideas of their own, but if we can come up with a very well balanced and professional design document they may take it into consideration.
It would be easy to say things like...well just cuts your speed in half...but that doesnt exactly evoke balance. This ability should upgrade your combat abilities, but there must also be costs...
Im assuming most of the community will want it to be a Master Pistoleer skill which is fine by me...but discuss that also if you have differing opinions.
Some of the optional Pros and Cons to dual wielding could be this:
Speed Bonuses
Damage Bonuses
Accuracy Penalty
Movement Speed Penalty
Both Weapons must be same type
Both Weapons must have same Serial
Limited Specials Use
No Specials Use
And there could be many more...think of how you could take the above bonuses and penalties and make a balanced and fair pistoleer ability. Also Im sure there are other bonuses and penalties that could apply post those also if you think of them.
The laws of Synergy need to be taken into consideration. If one horse can pull a 2000 pound wagon, how can 2 horses together pull 8000 pounds? The law of Synergy says that their efforts compound and square.
Either speed or damage needs to operate on this law, while nerfing the other during duel wielding.
Ilfe
Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:32 am
#153
Can't edit BAH
Also...
Another thing that could be nerfed during duel-wielding is accuracy in light of having damage and speed operate on the Synergy principle. If one pistol is 50% accuracy and the other is 60% accurcy, take the average (55%) and cut it in a third = 18.333 accuracy, but Synergize damage and speed.
Felix07
Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:48 am
#154
This would be a GREAT addition as a Master Level skill. Many good & in depth ideas have been listed.
In short, I think a slight speed increase, lowered accuracy, & double + ham cost to use as a special. Thus in order to deal another special you would get single weapon accuracy just as before.
ShrekECPI
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:32 pm
#155
First of all, I have only skimmed this thread so please forgive if I hit upon something that has already been mentioned.
I am doing a Pistoleer/Smuggler character.
This being said I agree that we should have Dual Wield....at Master Pistoleer, Which I have yet to reach
Maybe dual wielding could give us some status changes. Achance to land a status change ona target with a sick accuracy penalty on a special shot.
Or no specials but have an insane speed with lowered accuracy. It could be like having a constant double tap. No pool targeting or bleeds while dual wielding.
My logic is I don't care who you are, if you fire two semi-auto pistols you might hit something with luck and it will make your target pause to think do I want to keep attacking this lunatic. 
I wouldn't mind being able to that with two speed sliced scoutblasters.
Maybe limit the max and min range. If the accuracy mod is nota positve valueor ifthey are close enough for you to use Pistol Melee Defense you auto switch to one pistol and lose one attack while switching.
It should not make us Uber.
kevincio
Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:42 pm
#156
Duel wield would work in the following way...
Master Pistoleer Only.
You have 2 weapons slots, agood hand and an off hand. When you equip the pistols you chooses which pistol goes in each slot.
When you fire, using un-specialed or normal attacks, you use the pistol in your good hand. There are no bonuses or negatives to this, the only change is that your character model shows you firing with one hand.
When you have duel wield equipped you have 3 new specials.
Duel-Blast - Can only be used with pistols of the same damage type and armour pen.
The pistoleer fires both pistols at once in a devistating attack, hitting the target in the same location twice. The damage is worked out for each pistol as if it was a stopping shot and added together, the armour value of the guns is also increased by 1 for this attack. This attack hits a single pool.
In determing if this attack hits, the pistoleer must use the worst speed, accuracy mods and ham of both pistols. He must also make the attempt to hit twice (the "roll" the server does to see if you hit, based on accuracy, defence etc). If either of these "rolls" miss, the attack misses and does no damage.
Trick-Shot - Works with any 2 pistols.
The pistoleer fires the pistol in his normal hand at the enemy as a feign. It does the same damage as body shot 3 and hits a random pool. Whilst the opponent is trying to deal with this first shot, he fires a powerful second shot with the off hand pistol. This second shot does the same damage as stopping shot and hits a random pool. Any counter value the enemy has to this, like dodge/counterattack etc, is halfed when working out if it stops this second shot.
In determing if this attack hits, the pistoleer must use the worst speed, accuracy mods and ham of both pistols. He must also attempt to hit twice.If he misses the first shot, but hits the second,none of the counter modifier is negate, as the enemy is not taken by supprise, so the shot counts as a normal stopping shot.
Guns Blazing - Works with any 2 pistols.
Screaming at his enemies, the pistoleer blasts away with both guns. Thisputs the pistoleer in a state ofbererk, which lasts 10 seconds. During this time he may not heal, cure, or do any of the other things you can whilst bererk. The pistoleer may still fire his pistoleer specials,and each special qued up fires twice, once per gun. The damage is worked out seperatly for each gun. This effectily gives thepistoleer double the rate of fire for 10 seconds. After this Berserk, the pistoleer has a 5 second "cool down" time where they cannot use any specials. This ability can only be used once every 30 seconds.
In determing if this attack hits, the pistoleer must use the worst speed, accuracy mods and ham of both pistols.