Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Focus Thread : Balancing Range limitations for Pistoleer, Carbineer and Rifleman.
GadonThek wrote:
Riflemen and Carbineers have no choice but to tank. The only thing which affects Hate to a noticeable degree is the amount of damage you deal. Guess what, when you deal damage, you get a mob in your face, it's not our fault that the Hate system is useless.
Well, that is baloney. We are given 250 skill points, it's not that hard to pick up aroot or snare shot someplace.
Anymob coming my way getsknocked down,shot in the leg, cripped, and kited.
LOL Badger, don't start with the duel wield! 
Besides give it a day and there'll be another post asking about that. 
Gift.
Giftmacher wrote:
LOL Badger, don't start with the duel wield!
Besides give it a day and there'll be another post asking about that.
Gift.
please tell me you spelled it wrong on purpose!
Nothing will be balanced by defining weapons by range
All the smart people will do is switch Master Rifleman with Carbineer......... Oh and what is the Carbs min range gonna be, halfof rifles? So 15m, that is nothing. You know what defining weapons by range makes a pistoleer into? A meleer with perma lunge.
You want to make every weapon useful in combat then make them uniquely defined
raider7734 wrote:
GadonThek wrote:
Riflemen and Carbineers have no choice but to tank. The only thing which affects Hate to a noticeable degree is the amount of damage you deal. Guess what, when you deal damage, you get a mob in your face, it's not our fault that the Hate system is useless.
Well, that is baloney. We are given 250 skill points, it's not that hard to pick up aroot or snare shot someplace.
Anymob coming my way getsknocked down,shot in the leg, cripped, and kited.
So wait, in a thread which is attempting to get all ranged apart from Pistoleers nerfed because they are using pistoleer specials from 65m......Im being told to pick up Pistoleer specials and use them from 65m....
Thanks for proving my point though: we need a root to survive the Hate.
As to Mr BeWary; troll? Moi? Yep.
Im not a Rifleman. Im a Carbineer. I like them because they're a middle ground.
As I said in my previous post, plenty of options have been offered, everything from making certain special weapon-locked again to making certain special range-locked(ie, no matter what weapon you use, a +Root+ must be executed from within 35m).
Face it, this entire whinefest has developed because the devs finally added some common sense: Pistols should not be able to shoot the same distance as Rifles and Carbines, not accurately. It is, however, perfectly possible for someone armed with a Rifle or Carbine to blow your head clean off from a couple of feet away. All you need is enough space between you and the target for the barrel.
EDIT: Oh, and Badger, how is it possible to see a correspondant going after nerfs for other professions anything other than vindictive? Maybe if you had spent some time talking with the Rifleman and Carbineer correspondants before you posted this nerfcall thread, it wouldnt look that way.
Message Edited by GadonThek on 06-25-2005 05:38 PM
Ahem.... returning to the subject at hand, and things to offer in return for any changes made. (I think a decent list of pros as well as cons to choose from will be best offered up.) Some thoughts:
I'm surprised to see riflemen can'tDB at range, with the rate they move and the distance they ought to operate at that seems somewhat odd, perhaps it needs reinstating?
Also an extra movement penalty on their part will need to be compensated for somewhat with an improved snare.
Mentioned already but put a max range on stopping shot.
Something done about general rifles like the ALR being better than the master weapons like the T-21 (I should point out we could ask for something similar here like a master box kinetic weapon, but I digress.
Any others?
Gift.
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-25-2005 09:15 AM
Message Edited by Giftmacher on 06-25-2005 09:16 AM
Excellant! I see this is still a Nerf Rifleman thread! I was right. In addition to my post on page 5, I
see on another post that now your profession wants in increase Riflemans Action cost. OK, lets
apply some common sense. #1st- You guys move faster than Rifleman, #2nd-you guys shoot faster
than Rifleman, #3rd- you guys can shoot your specials no matter what complared to Rifleman who
must go prone, use cover, coot-down timers. So, Why should action be higher for the slower rate
of firing, cool-down timer special shooting, slower moving profession? As opposed to Pisloteers who
have all those nice speed, shooting on move, accuracy, and rate of fire mods? Hmm, seems like
it would take more Action to do all that....... Use caution, Nerf-Cheerleading Gank-Squad, leave that
proffession to the Jedi. Call for improvements, Not nerfs, I don't. You may result in nerfing yourselves
while asking for the nerfs of others. Hey, Kinda like what happened to the Jedi.
So, get back on topic and try to improve yourselves. We're all friends here, "Pie for everyone!".
Well my take on the issue is either have range limitations for all profs or have none at all. It is absolutely totally 100% unacceptable for one prof to cover every other prof's range and more. The Devs got scared because of one prof being such cry babies about a nerf to their uberness (which they should have never been solo'ing Krayts, etc. anyways) but in turn now have nearly destroyed the other two ranged profs.
Personally, a Carbineer and Rifleman should not be able to engage in 'normal' combat in close/melee range.....there is a reason these profs are RANGED PROFS. The major problemis too much content is melee in SWG right now (the Devs talked about changing that but have not done it yet) but at the same time there are plenty of skill points leftover after Carbineer or Rifleman to get 'reasonably' prepared for close/melee combat.
In the end, if range limitations are not totally taken away or totally implemented for every prof, then SOE should just delete Pistoleer and Carbineer.
BTW, those Rifleman or even Carbineers that complain about not being able to participate in dungeon/melee content, well choose another prof that is meant to be effective at close range or diversify your template or get a BALANCED GROUP.
So far the best solution IMO is Badger's "lesser out of range" guns, meaning if you want to fight outside of your range specialization you must accept the use of a lesser weapon. Make pistols do more dmg at 15m than rifles are capable of, but make pistols pretty much just paint markers at 64m. Wouldn't rifle be more effective if your pistoleer teamate could help with agro/motion control the whole time, or actually pull agro off you as the critter closes to melee range? We can't do either right now and for a CC proff thats pretty lame.
MrAndrson wrote:
Excellant! I see this is still a Nerf Rifleman thread! I was right. In addition to my post on page 5, I see on another post that now your profession wants in increase Riflemans Action cost. OK, lets apply some common sense. #1st- You guys move faster than Rifleman,
%9 faster in exchange for our DPS, but considering your s'posed to be prone while working...
#2nd-you guys shoot faster than Rifleman,
Not so much faster that it compensates for being able to shoot half as far. Twice as fast would be "fair" if our limiter is to be ourlesser dmg weapons.
#3rd- you guys can shoot your specials no matter what complared to Rifleman who must go prone, use cover, coot-down timers. So, Why should action be higher for the slower rate
No matter what, as long as it's within 35m, or we haven't done that move in the last 2 minutes. Seriously, have you seen the cooldown timer on /stop? Rifle has nothing to compare.
So, Why should action be higher for the slower rateof firing, cool-down timer special shooting, slower moving profession?
Your not serious, I have a rifle/MCH alt who doesn't even own armor. She don't need it as no one gets to shoot at her. Your cooldown timer is so slow you can rip off 3 snipershots ( your big special)in the time my stopping shot timer resets ( my big special). Who's faster now?
As opposed to Pisloteers who have all those nice speed, shooting on move, accuracy, and rate of fire mods?
Those are all gone. We are better with a rifle equiped than a pistol. I would also have you check on the accy totals for our proffesions.
Hmm, seems like it would take more Action to do all that....... (by that reasoning you should use action just to move around, a T-21 isn't exactly a paperweight when compared to an FWG. Action use is for specials and as I pointed out earlier most riflemen do not run down noticably faster than most pistoleers.)
Use caution, Nerf-Cheerleading Gank-Squad, leave that proffession to the Jedi. Call for improvements, Not nerfs, I don't. You may result in nerfing yourselves while asking for the nerfs of others. Hey, Kinda like what happened to the Jedi.
For as guy who's supposed point is "don't call for nerfs 'cause nerfs are all around bad" you seem to take a perverse joy in the nerfing of others.
So, get back on topic and try to improve yourselves. We're all friends here, "Pie for everyone!".
Most folks would see the homogonization of the ranged classes ( which is where we end up if we all try to be brought up to the same level) as a nerf. Each class needs it's limitations and strengths. Rifles are slow longreaching and powerfull, pistols are for fighting up close. Except that a rifle up close is just as powerfull and not much slower than a pistol, and a pistol user is a spectator in ranged combat.
So we either ask forcarbs and pistols to be put in the same boat with rifles, or that they stay the same as they currently are and bring rifles back down to earth. Again, what limitatins are you willing to accept in order to make room for all 3 weapon types? We are more than willing to stay short range fighters and leave the long range power stuff to you guys if you would only do the same, but somehow not being able to do it all is seen as a nerf. Wake up, no one else can do it all right now.
TAfirehawk wrote:Well my take on the issue is either have range limitations for all profs or have none at all. It is absolutely totally 100% unacceptable for one prof to cover every other prof's range and more. The Devs got scared because of one prof being such cry babies about a nerf to their uberness (which they should have never been solo'ing Krayts, etc. anyways) but in turn now have nearly destroyed the other two ranged profs.
Personally, a Carbineer and Rifleman should not be able to engage in 'normal' combat in close/melee range.....there is a reason these profs are RANGED PROFS. The major problemis too much content is melee in SWG right now (the Devs talked about changing that but have not done it yet) but at the same time there are plenty of skill points leftover after Carbineer or Rifleman to get 'reasonably' prepared for close/melee combat.
In the end, if range limitations are not totally taken away or totally implemented for every prof, then SOE should just delete Pistoleer and Carbineer.
BTW, those Rifleman or even Carbineers that complain about not being able to participate in dungeon/melee content, well choose another prof that is meant to be effective at close range or diversify your template or get a BALANCED GROUP.
Utter bollocks. First, as mentioned above, how will nerfing the crap out of Rifles and Carbines help Pistols? It wont, it's just spite.
As the Carbineer corr, I would have thought that you would know: balanced groups do not help in any way, shape or form. Taunt does NOT work well. Melee cannot tank. If you do damage, you ARE the tank! Regardless of that, its an issue of feckin space! You go to any of the high-end dungeons and try to find somewhere more than 30m away from what you want to shoot. Go on, get your "balanced group" and give it a shot.
I do just fine using an Elite, which is limited to 50m range. You dont seem to realise they want Carbines nerfed as well, not just Rifles.
You want to limit the range of something? Limit the range of specials! ANY, repeat, ANY move to limit the range of Riflemen and Carbineers will take us back to the days of reverse-kiting in PvP, and will totally ruin the PvE experiance of Rifle and Carbine users.
This is a case of a problem being looked at only from the perspective of PvP imbalance, and the proposed NERFS will only end up screwing over PvE.
BeWary wrote:
TAfirehawk wrote:
The Devs got scared because of one prof being such cry babies about a nerf to their uberness (which they should have never been solo'ing Krayts, etc. anyways) but in turn now have nearly destroyed the other two ranged profs.
BTW, those Rifleman or even Carbineers that complain about not being able to participate in dungeon/melee content, well choose another prof that is meant to be effective at close range or diversify your template or get a BALANCED GROUP.
TAFirehawk uses common sense to hit The nail on the head for a bajillion points of truth dmg.
The nail is stunned
The nail looks less steady on its feet.
And that nail has nothing to do with making pistols into a viable weapon class......
In a World were carbs are limited to 15m min range and pistoleers are limited to 35m maxrange why is pistol a viable weapon class?
You are better off being a Carbineer for ranged combat and you are better off being a meleer for all combat that takes place within 15m.........
(BTW all pistols/carbs that go over their weapon range need to be nered when this happens)
The original range documnets had clear roles for each combatant defined by range. It allowed each class to really kick arse in indidual areas. The incredibly vocal group of riflemen managed to scare the devs into removing their range penalties and reducing the carbineers penalties by default. It left pistoleers exactly where we started in the range/roles document.
To clarify, the original limitations for rifle were removed and not replaced. Pistols were left with the limitations as set up in the design.
If the design was balanced and then penalties were removed from one side of it, does it not follow that it is now imbalanced?
I was simply agreeing with TA as to how we wound up here. A very vocal group wanted to be sure not to be put in the same class as the rest of us. If you read the rest of my posts you will see that I favour a "weak fire zone" and weapon switching over a no-fire zone. If rifles that are s'posed to work within pistol range are limited to slightly less than pistol values then pistols have a place again. w/o totally gimping riflemen. It would requiresuperior weapons to have earned certs. No cert weapons should always be second class IMO.
Message Edited by BeWary on 06-25-2005 12:23 PM