Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
actually, yeah i will hit you. i hit JSFs with blasters all the time now and if you inreased the hitbox to the size of an a-wing everything would be just fine. like most people you don't seem to get (i didn't get it at first either). these ships don't go any faster than older ships.
Message Edited by ShoginArmada on 07-20-2005 09:55 AM
This thread is hilarious. Dumicus' bluntness is always refreshing, I kind of feel sorry for Alarien and I do see their point in a way, but I think that kind of has become irrelevant since this thread has been turning into a flame war now.
As for the general argument, anyoen noticed hwo in each related thread the argument basically goes around in circles?
It's like.."The jsf has too much mass!"
"hmm so we should make it less manouverable"
"but the hitbox is too small"
"So we should reduce the mass!"
"so we should make it less manouverable!"
"but I can't hit it even when it's flying in a straight line"
"so we should nerf it!"
"But it has too much mass!"
kinda..Easily moved away from a flame war.
Really, I think the problem boils down to one very obvious point. The pre-ROTW and post-ROTW ships are certainly not balanced on the same scale, hence the obvious feeling of "imbalance."
Then consider, what were the pre-ROTW ships balanced for? I think the idea was the Ace grind. I think SOE felt that DS and Kessel were meant to be "uber zones" and thus all fighting in those zones was meant to be significantly harder, however, it has worked out that all masters pretty much have to go to DS regularly to repair or for other reasons, so the fighting in DS was eventually considered the "standard master level NPC battle" for both the players and SOE. With this, SOE then balanced their later ships so that they competed evenly with the Deep Space level content and with each other.
Lets face it too, making a ship "harder" vs the player is not in the spirit of space sims. Rather, make the encounter harder, by adding in more cap ships, fighters, making the fighters smarter, but never make them tedious to kill. Tedious to kill is what they are in the early ships, and I think that's been addressed.
Further, look at the pre-ROTW newbie ships. As said many times, these are supposed to be viable. They weren't, but their high mass versions absolutely finally are. Giving the Z-95 high enough mass to use some competitive equipment, but limiting it to 1 gun is a great balance idea for it.
Where the game is screwed now is that the canon ships, which were really blah to fly before, are now essentially pointless. The A-Wing, the TIE Interceptor, the Advanced are all weak vs Tier 5 and now weak vs ROTW. That's where I think the balance has to fall.
And what's the argument against this? Making PVE too easy? Hell, its already too easy, even with the normal pre-ROTW ships. And once you reach master, a Tier 4 SHOULD be trivial to an Ace. Was a Tier 1 not trivial to you when you were Tier 2? Of course it was. Lets not think it should be different at the high end. No, there is no balance issue here. The ROTW ships are not even available until 4XXX and until then the major limiting factor is the certification for equipment, and its not going to make the game any easier to balance the old ships to the new, especially since the ones that need work are all 3XXX and up anyway.
Things are going in the right direction, in my opinion. Now we need more seriously difficult encounters, like the ROTW badge fight, and things like that.
LeaphChausew wrote:
Valid arguements I guess but I think we need to move on from these 'knwon issues'. The reason why people are getting touchy about this arguement now is basically because the same stuff is being repeated over and over and over again.
LeaphChausew wrote:This thread is hilarious. Dumicus' bluntness is always refreshing, I kind of feel sorry for Alarien and I do see their point in a way, but I think that kind of has become irrelevant since this thread has been turning into a flame war now.
I sometimes still wear my SSgt stripes. 7 years in the service does odd things
Cool thing is just found theres an ignore option on this forum. I'll give ya three guesses what self rightous "know it all" ignoramous is going on it soon and the first two don't count
Still incapable of being disagreed with without posting an insult huh?
SSgt? Let me guess... REMF?
Alarien wrote:Still incapable of being disagreed with without posting an insult huh?
SSgt? Let me guess... REMF?
No, i can agree to disagree, but your pompus self rightousness is F'ing offensive, and frankly i love stepping on your toes because of it. From the word go the instant i read your first post that i saw, you sound like, " YOUR ALL WRONG, AND I'M RIGHT! MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY! IT SHOULD ALL BE MY WAY!" How can someone NOT enjoy insulting someone who comes off like that?!
Alarien wrote:
Pre-ROTW ships are underpowered crap. They all need to be reevaluated. All of them.
I mean, i really enjoyed that one. Its projected as a statement of fact from an authoritive source. Who are you again? I dont recall seeing you around here except maybe a month ago at best. How long have you been playing now? Oh where are you divining this factual information?!
Aint nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when you start spouting off like your perosnal opinion is fact, your going to get someone whos going to take a leak in your wheaties. Yeah, i have an opinion too, but i will admit its just that because the internet is full of "experts". Neither of us is any different.
And no, not a REMF. Combat Engineer. Spent 200 days out of the year deployed. 'nuff said.
If they would bring the older ships up a notch to put them more inline with the ROTW ships as far as P/y/r and speed, then that would be good enough for me.
I thought you found the "ignore button" for me. Apparently not. Not very decisive are you?
Anyway, there is no different between me stating that pre-ROTW are underpowered crap and you stating that the new ships are all overpowered. That's pretty much the entire difference there, one of opinion. However, you didn't like my tone? Hah, like your comment was any less a statement of fact. Hypocrisy.
Who am I?A pilot in the game. Kinda like you, but obviously I have more ability to adapt than you do. And, well, I whine a lot less.
Anyway, if you'd like to actually attempt to address any of my points on the difference between pre-ROTW and ROTW ships, please do.
Well, I won't denigrate the CE's, certainly. Sorta hooah. Or rather, hooah enough.
Anyway, are you done with the big man talk yet or are you going to contribute to the discussion more than your incessant whining?
Alarien wrote:
Anyway, there is no different between me stating that pre-ROTW are underpowered crap and you stating that the new ships are all overpowered. That's pretty much the entire difference there, one of opinion.
Umm, that's a world of difference. Pre-RotW spaceflight, and especially PvP, had an entirely different style of flight. It wasn't simply a matter of the ships having less kick to them, but combat was handled differently, and loadout was completely different. Post-RotW pvp can drag out for a looong time and PvE becomes boring with the new ships. The old ships required thought to load them out, and time to work in the right components. It took me half an hour to rig a Belbullab with crafted gear for PvP outside of Deep Space - just throw whatever you want into 90k of goodness, with speed and agility to spare.
The first thing I noticed when I started flying an Actis was that nothing could touch me - too danged fast and agile. NPCs are geared towards shooting down a ship like that. Gunboats and vettes become trivial, and if they do hit you - why, in a fast little ship like that my level 8 RE reward shield takes the hits easily. Before RotW you had to use a lot more skill against bigger targets.
That's the thing, perhaps. JTL was supposed to be about pilot skill, and the RotW ships cheapen that a lot.
Alarien wrote:
Out for the weekend, so I come to the discussion late.
Pre-ROTW ships are underpowered crap. They all need to be reevaluated. All of them. ROTW and later ships so far are all fine, including the JSF, which I don't fly, but enjoy killing. Those who insist that pre-ROTW ships are exceptionally well balanced are simply used to the old system and really don't want those ships to ever match their canon role, OR only bother with them in PVP, where their incredible difficiences might be made up for by their size or some other advantage (think of the A-Wing here). (A-Wing, TIE Interceptor, TIE/Advanced are all junk in regards to their PVE role)
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Ducimus wrote:
>>But even you have to agree, there's a SMIDGEN of vindictiveness here.
Hmmm your probably right. Probably a bleed over from forums like the GCW forum where both sides whine, trying to get the other nerfed.
Im a pilot, first and foremost. JTL is WHY i subscribe to SWG at all. Ive done and flown them all, serveral times over. While i finally settled down into imp pilot, I have no factional biases where JTL is concerned. It would be most hipcritical of me if i did. But i do have a beef with the ROTW additions to JTL. Not just the JSF, but every stinking one of them except maybe the Arc120. I like to think my reasoning against their current incarnation is sound and factual, but i dont expect people to beleive me. This is the internet, and everybody is an expert.
Who I love are the same ones still calling for nerfs because of the PYR accelerations.
So, since this thread has some visability:
PYR ACCELERATIONS DO NOT HELP YOU TURN FASTER, THEY MERELY ACCELERATE YOU INTO SAID TURN FASTER. THE DIFFERENCE IS ON THE ORDER OF A FRACTION OF FRACTION OF A SECOND, AND THE TURN RATES OF A 300/300/150 ARE THE EXACT SAME AS A 600/600/300 SHIP WHEN EQUIPPED WITH THE SAME JUNK.
*ahem*
Anyway, I still find it comical that as soon as the it was proven that the PYR accelerations didn't unbalance things that much (or at all, IMO), it immediately shifted en masse to the mass (no pun intended). So there's my point enacted in real life already. Point one got shot down because of testing and common sense, so the "nerfherders" started in on Item #2.
If they succeed in getting the mass nerfed, I guarantee you the second weapon slot is next. I guaran-goddamned-tee it. That or the hitbox. It will NEVER stop if an inch is given.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-19-2005 08:04 PM