Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
In response to Attaca:
I have to disagree with you here. I agree that prior to ROTW, the ships were generally balanced against each other. Where I disagree is that they were poorly balanced against the in game content. Yes, they were perfect for the grind up to Ace. However, at the DS level, they were poor shadows of their enemy. The ships at Tier 5 take significantly longer to kill with a light, fast, 1 gun ship. That's not to say they are *harder*, just that they take longer, making it dull to fight with them. There is no sense of speed or dogfighting, but rather a sense of flying behind and shooting... for entirely too long.
That's not an interceptor. An interceptor should be a starfighter killer, fast and deadly. Not necessarily able to take a lot of punches, but able to fight. The Actis fits that role, as well as the Belbullab. On the other hand, a superiority heavy fighter, like the X-Wing should suffer when it comes to speed and maneuverability, but should be able to withstand hits and make up for it with greater firepower. I think currently they do that.
Yes, the older ships were harder to equip, I completely agree with you. That doesn't mean that the system worked better there. It still takes thought to load out ships. If you look at Washell's Heavy X and my Heavy X, we run on two very different philosophies. He goes with the lvl 10 guns and the level 8 engines, and I go with the lvl 10 engine and the lvl 7/8 guns. That will make quite the difference in the way the ship handles.
Further, I disagree with what you said about PVP. I've PVP'd in an A-Wing vs a JSF and in an A-Wing vs a TIE Interceptor and its the same thing there, a long turning, jinking battle that can go on forever if no one makes a mistake. However, most of my fights are short, as I usually anticipate turns and am able to get on my opponent's rear. In the Heavy X, I've taken advantage of the X's superior mass for engine and am able to make the ship stand up to nearly any JSF I've come across. Yes, a superior pilot will still take me out in a JSF, though that's not common, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Edit: This post also addresses my response to Cuchulainn. As far as the ROTW ships go, there is a difference between the interceptor classes and the superiority fighters (X and Vaksai). The JSF may be able to do "anything" but the Heavy X does some things worse and some things signficantly better, in my opinion and experience. I see no reason for saying that anything there is unbalanced. As for the older ships, yeah, they were balanced to each other. They still are extremely blah to fly against Tier 5 in PVP. Tier 5 should be balanced vs the master pilot in almost any specific ship. Currently, I think it is far from that, as the old light fighters are just plain tedious.
Message Edited by Alarien on 07-20-2005 02:04 PM
Alarien wrote:
In response to Attaca:
I have to disagree with you here. I agree that prior to ROTW, the ships were generally balanced against each other. Where I disagree is that they were poorly balanced against the in game content. Yes, they were perfect for the grind up to Ace. However, at the DS level, they were poor shadows of their enemy. The ships at Tier 5 take significantly longer to kill with a light, fast, 1 gun ship. That's not to say they are *harder*, just that they take longer, making it dull to fight with them. There is no sense of speed or dogfighting, but rather a sense of flying behind and shooting... for entirely too long.
There isyour problem, I think. DS ships aren't meant to be killed with 1 gun setups, they're T5, the toughest NPC opponents we have. If you go DS hunting, take a heavier ship - which each faction had.
Ah, you say, but a heavy ships like a Rihk might not be a good choice for PvP? Very true - when it comes to PvP you would pick a faster, more agile ship.
Post RotW you don't have to do that - the current ships have no difference between roles. I'd also have ot disagree that kills took too long back then - I really haven't noticed a huge difference in my TTK (Time To Kill) in DS with the new ships, but I made sure that I had a specific, quick killing machine for PvE. All the new ships do is allow me to pack the firepower of a heavy mass ship into a small frame and get hit less - that's the balance issue.
Alarien wrote:
In response to Attaca:
I have to disagree with you here. I agree that prior to ROTW, the ships were generally balanced against each other. Where I disagree is that they were poorly balanced against the in game content. Yes, they were perfect for the grind up to Ace. However, at the DS level, they were poor shadows of their enemy. The ships at Tier 5 take significantly longer to kill with a light, fast, 1 gun ship. That's not to say they are *harder*, just that they take longer, making it dull to fight with them. There is no sense of speed or dogfighting, but rather a sense of flying behind and shooting... for entirely too long. -A light fast fighter isn't supposed to be able to kill things quick. Their role was to intercept. Break up formations and be hard to hit. Awings, Interceptors are designed to have less firepower because that is their role. You want to kill something quick with lots of firepower then you get an xwing, ywing, bwing, or Opp. Those ships are designed to kill things faster. But they also do not have the manuverability that hte awing and interceptor do.
That's not an interceptor. An interceptor should be a starfighter killer, fast and deadly. Not necessarily able to take a lot of punches, but able to fight. The Actis fits that role, as well as the Belbullab. On the other hand, a superiority heavy fighter, like the X-Wing should suffer when it comes to sp eed and maneuverability, but should be able to withstand hits and make up for it with greater firepower. I think currently they do that. -The actis fitsall roles. That's the problem. Twin guns, 90k mass, and small hit box. So you have firepower, speed/manuverability, and shields. The interceptors role is to yes, fight fast starfighters but to also not get hit very often. So inorder to not get hit, they are built small, with less firepower and shielding. Make sense? And the Advanced xwing should suffer a manuverability penalty for having increased mass. Otherwise what point is there to still fly a regular xwing?
Yes, the older ships were harder to equip, I completely agree with you. That doesn't mean that the system worked better there. It still takes thought to load out ships. If you look at Washell's Heavy X and my Heavy X, we run on two very different philosophies. He goes with the lvl 10 guns and the level 8 engines, and I go with the lvl 10 engine and the lvl 7/8 guns. That will make quite the difference in the way the ship handles. The system was 100 time better before ROTW came out. Imperials complained about awings being hard to kill. Well guess what their balance was? The oppressor, or other interceptors if you want. But the Oppressor really shined bright with taking out Awings with some IR2's loaded on it. Those xwings are different, but they will still fly similar. One can just turn a little faster then the other. And one can pack a little bigger punch. But flying the xwing will still be the same.
Further, I disagree with what you said about PVP. I've PVP'd in an A-Wing vs a JSF and in an A-Wing vs a TIE Interceptor and its the same thing there, a long turning, jinking battle that can go on forever if no one makes a mistake. However, most of my fights are short, as I usually anticipate turns and am able to get on my opponent's rear. In the Heavy X, I've taken advantage of the X's superior mass for engine and am able to make the ship stand up to nearly any JSF I've come across. Yes, a superior pilot will still take me out in a JSF, though that's not common, and I see nothing wrong with that. -I've gone up against many JSF and Grevious's in my xwing to. And I still fly the regular xwing. The xwing is BY FAR out classed by these ships. However you can still take them out if the pilot doesn't know what he's doing. But when a greenhorn pilot goes up in a JSF he is already a better pilot because of the ship.
Edit: This post also addresses my response to Cuchulainn. As far as the ROTW ships go, there is a difference between the interceptor classes and the superiority fighters (X and Vaksai). The JSF may be able to do "anything" but the Heavy X does some things worse and some things signficantly better, in my opinion and experience. I see no reason for saying that anything there is unbalanced. As for the older ships, yeah, they were balanced to each other. They still are extremely blah to fly against Tier 5 in PVP. Tier 5 should be balanced vs the master pilot in almost any specific ship. Currently, I think it is far from that, as the old light fighters are just plain tedious. -So in other words your saying you don't want to work at being a good pilot in a balanced ship? You don't like to get hit? Come on now. The original JTL ships we're balanced well. And would be even better balanced to each other if WO3 gets fixed. But throw in the new ROTW ships and all that goes out the door. JSF hard to hit, fast moving, has firepower, and can basically do anything and everything. Its roleIS everything. There is no balance when it can do it all. What part of that don't you understand?
Message Edited by Alarien on 07-20-2005 02:04 PM
Message Edited by xTekx on 07-20-2005 02:46 PM
Oooh, edit after I post, that's no fair. The part in bold makes no sense, unless you want to homoginize all ships to have the same stats with different looks (like, gee, they did to poor CH's). If you take a heavy ship you kill fast. If you take a light ship you kill slow. How can you have any difference in fighters, and yet make kill T5s equal to everything? Ah, right, with ships like the JSF and Belbullab.
Alarien wrote:
I see no reason for saying that anything there is unbalanced. As for the older ships, yeah, they were balanced to each other. They still are extremely blah to fly against Tier 5 in PVP. Tier 5 should be balanced vs the master pilot in almost any specific ship. Currently, I think it is far from that, as the old light fighters are just plain tedious.
Message Edited by Alarien on 07-20-2005 02:04 PM
Unfortunatly, like most other things by sony, the ignore function doesnt seem to work. Doesnt mean i can't gloss over and ignore it though. Friendly bit of advice, your first sentence sets the tone of your whole post.
Attacca wrote:
Umm, that's a world of difference. Pre-RotW spaceflight, and especially PvP, had an entirely different style of flight. It wasn't simply a matter of the ships having less kick to them, but combat was handled differently, and loadout was completely different. Post-RotW pvp can drag out for a looong time and PvE becomes boring with the new ships. The old ships required thought to load them out, and time to work in the right components. ..................(BIG SNIP.....................
That's the thing, perhaps. JTL was supposed to be about pilot skill, and the RotW ships cheapen that a lot.
Agreed. I think part of the problem here is ship parts, not the ships themselves. Genereally speaking if someone were to come here straight out of XvT or XwA, they'd probably be up in arms. Hell, back in beta i cursed JTL for being too MMORPGized. But that brings me to one point i think many of us overlook. Sony DID add MMORPG elements to the game. Re Engineering is a prime example.
Loot gathering / trinket hunting to make an uber item. Since when did you see this in any other Star wars flight game? The Tie Advanced for example, does not suck... .with the right equipment. In mine i have a 1900 F/B MKVI shield, a 70 YPR L6 engine, two L7 blasters at 3000+ damage at .310 refire, a 990/40 L2 capacitor, etc etc. All of which took me awhile to aquire and represent quite a bit of part farming. I can out fly and outkill people in JSF's.
The "RE game" is arguably half of JTL. Seriously before ROTW went live many of us were fitting in parts of a level that might not have been intended for the ships we were putting them into. I think this is getting magnified with the ROTW ships. I complain about ROTW ships because i know with enough RE work what can be done with them, and its a bit much.
Great, now we're getting into a conversation. Unfortunately, I don't have much time tonight, heh. I'll address more specific points to Attaca and Tek in the morning.
" Friendly bit of advice, your first sentence sets the tone of your whole post."
Just as a note, agreed, but the second you start breaking out skill assumption, you pretty much trash your own argument and any ability to get along in a conversation. I think we've seen one too many "omg this is too hard posts" and jump to conclusions. My skill is not the question here, its what I think about the game, and as you point out, coming from XvT,XwA, I feel that the old ships are out of whack when you hit Tier 5. I have a feeling on how many direct clean shots it should take to take out a TIE and then move on to his wingmate, and I felt it was just that right up until I first jumped into Kessel, and it got tedious fighting regular NPC fighters.
Yes, fully agree that RE'ing can make ships do far more than they were probably meant to do, or perhaps not. Perhaps RE'ing was meant to bring the ships up to snuff, who knows what the heck SOE thinks...
Be that as it may, though, I have to disagree that the JSF automatically makes people "better." Sure it makes it easier for them, but in my experience it does not make them even mildly competitive in PVP. A bad pilot is a bad pilot, and I'm sure we've all seen how easy a bad pilot, or a mediocre pilot, or an "almost good" pilot still is to kill in PVP. That it makes the content a little easier for them, well, its certainly a valid complaint, but I don't think a very far reaching problem. At tier 4, if they are 4xxxx or 44xx or whatnot, they still aren't going to be likely to be equipping much better in the way of a gear than a mildly smart regular X-Wing pilot who is working his equipment as he advances the Ace tree. They'll get a bit better speed and turning and sacrifice a weapon hardpoint most likely. Fair trade in PVE in my opinion.
Rather than send things back into the "old days" my personal preference would be for them to make the current content harder, by increasing the number of enemy fighters, cap ships, gun boats, and giving us good difficult missions to fly in new zones. Sure, I can take out 12+ fighters in a PVE furball, whether its my regular X, my heavy X, or my A-Wing or my Bel. I'd rather have to fight those, respawning to maintain their number, while trying to take out a capital ship. Give me incentive to find a friend to fly with, and incentive for myself or that friend to bring a tricked out, armed to the teeth B-Wing.
Alarien wrote:
Edit: This post also addresses my response to Cuchulainn. As far as the ROTW ships go, there is a difference between the interceptor classes and the superiority fighters (X and Vaksai). The JSF may be able to do "anything" but the Heavy X does some things worse and some things signficantly better, in my opinion and experience. I see no reason for saying that anything there is unbalanced. As for the older ships, yeah, they were balanced to each other. They still are extremely blah to fly against Tier 5 in PVP. Tier 5 should be balanced vs the master pilot in almost any specific ship. Currently, I think it is far from that, as the old light fighters are just plain tedious.
Message Edited by Alarien on 07-20-2005 02:04 PM
Umm, the new ships make fighting NPCs more easy as they are more forgiving ships. Here you compare the JSF to Heavy Xwing for some reason. That is not a good comparison, the comparison would be the JSF to the JTL Xwing as they both have roughly the same firepower and mass.The heavy Xwing is another ROTW ship - i.e. it is not balanced.
The reason for saying the ROTW ships are imbalanced is because by no stretch of the imagination can you say they are balanced with the existing JTL ship balancing system. The ROTW ships exist as different ships from a different game flying inside a JTL server. Why not stick some Vipers or Star Furies in there, why not have 300 Last Starfighters flying around!
Its quite simple to see how the new ships are unbalanced. FORGET about JSFs being vaped by A and X wings, that is the skill of the pilot and has nothing to do with balance at all.
The original ships have a simple method of balance. If you have a better stat in one earier you have a weaker stat in another. Those stats are -
1. Mass.
2. Manouverability.
3. Hitbox.
4. Firepower.
The JSF for example has the best manouverability, high mass, smallest hitbox, and high firepower. So it has no pay off at all for its great stats, therefore it is unbalanced. Most people concentrate on the JSF because of all the new ships it is the most unbalanced and therefore most obvious, but all the others are out of whack to some degree as well.
Alarien wrote:
Be that as it may, though, I have to disagree that the JSF automatically makes people "better." Sure it makes it easier for them, but in my experience it does not make them even mildly competitive in PVP. A bad pilot is a bad pilot, and I'm sure we've all seen how easy a bad pilot, or a mediocre pilot, or an "almost good" pilot still is to kill in PVP. That it makes the content a little easier for them, well, its certainly a valid complaint, but I don't think a very far reaching problem. At tier 4, if they are 4xxxx or 44xx or whatnot, they still aren't going to be likely to be equipping much better in the way of a gear than a mildly smart regular X-Wing pilot who is working his equipment as he advances the Ace tree. They'll get a bit better speed and turning and sacrifice a weapon hardpoint most likely. Fair trade in PVE in my opinion.
How many times does it have to be explained - the fact that a guy in an Xwing can kill people in JSFs does not make the imbalance magically disappear. To test the balance of ships out you need 2 pilots of EQUAL skill and experience in the 2 ships and see what happens. Or get 20 EQUAL pilots and give them their choice of ship. Or look at the stats of all the ships together and see which ship has the best in most areas and the second best in the other ares.
The answer to every question above was JSF. If the ships were balanced you would answer each question with a different ship name, and different people would have different answers. The JSF is the most imbalanced of the ROTW ships but the others are all wrong to some degree.
I have a JSF and it has EVERY single component from my stock Xwing in it with the exception of one Adv. blaster swopped for a Mk3 proton torp launcher (so roughly the same firepower) and it has slightly better armour on it (+100 each way). On top of this it has THREE times the manouverabilty and a THIRD of the size, with the firepower identical (it loses one weapon hardpoint but the weapons are nose mounted straight shooters, more effective than spread weapons).
So, looking above we can see that the JSF and Xwing both have great mass, great firepower and the balance for the Xwing in this is that is has mediocre manouverability and a big hitbox. Now tell what the balance the JSF has and you will finally convince me the new ships are fine.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-20-2005 07:27 PM
Ill agree with making content a bit harder. The problem i have with that is it leads down the road to a space version of a CU. That just strikes fear in me. The CU on the ground turned SWG into just another MMO, and the only thing unique about it now, is its based on SW. Other than that, its just like all the rest now.
I dont want to see what happened on the ground, happen in space. But i do agree content is too easy. For example, I dont think i should be able to solo the whole vette formation in 8 mins give or take. Heck, any newbie folloing step by step instructions can do it. The thing is, even before the ROTW additions the game was too easy, now its trivial. It has to be said though, that a good portion of the lack of diffuclty in JTL can probably be blamed on WO3. Right now you can hold down the trigger on monday and keep on firing all week. On top of that you always have a full capacitor to draw from when shunting.
Cuchulainn, you missed my point comparing the JSF and the Heavy X. I wasn't trying to compare old vs new, I was comparing ships in roles. The Heavy X is a heavy superiority fighter, meant as a multirole ship with an emphasis on fighter ship to ship combat. The JSF is a pure dogfighter, with some ability to take on larger ships. The JSF does not outdo the Heavy X in all fields. The Heavy X can be faster, more well armored, and can carry significantly more firepower (you can't fit 3 level 10 guns on a JSF) than the JSF can. That, in my opinion, makes the Heavy X the superior gunboat and capital ship killer. On the other hand, the JSF is more maneuverable in general and has a smaller profile, making it a good starfighter killer.
However, I would completely disagree with your discussion of them in PVP. A Heavy X with a tier 10 engine is no where near 3 times less maneuverable than a JSF, because the Heavy X can HAVE the tier 10 engine, which almost any JSF pilot is going to avoid. A good RE'ing pilot can probably get it on there, but only after many many months of hard RE work, and he'll still sacrifice armor, firepower, to do it.
I'm not sure if you fly the Heavy X, but its a work of art because of its versatility. It is by no means outclassed in everything by the JSF. I have survived multiple hits by a good JSF pilot due to having level 8 RE'd shields (2555 f/b), and 1100 f/b armor only to shunt and destroy my opponent. Heck, last night I went 3 and 0 vs JSFs and 2 and 0 vs Oppressors (not that I'm proud of beating up on an Oppressor..). If you put a pilot of "equal skill" in a well equipped JSF vs me, I will have some problems, but by no means do I think that that pilot will have a significant advantage, rather, it will be a heck of a good fight.
And I just don't think it makes things "easier." Again, it makes Tier 5 fights tolerable. It makes them faster and more intense, as they should be in the Star Wars universe. I just can't get behind sitting there, plugging away at the shields of a Tier 5 Aggressor with an A-Wing and 1 level 7 or 8 blaster for a long time to kill it. That's not the wayI feel the game should fly. Make things harder by making them... well... harder, with more ships, more enemies, tougher objectives... rather than just giving the enemies bigger guns, bigger shields, and faster engines...
Alarien wrote:
Cuchulainn, you missed my point comparing the JSF and the Heavy X. I wasn't trying to compare old vs new, I was comparing ships in roles. The Heavy X is a heavy superiority fighter, meant as a multirole ship with an emphasis on fighter ship to ship combat. The JSF is a pure dogfighter, with some ability to take on larger ships. The JSF does not outdo the Heavy X in all fields. The Heavy X can be faster, more well armored, and can carry significantly more firepower (you can't fit 3 level 10 guns on a JSF) than the JSF can. That, in my opinion, makes the Heavy X the superior gunboat and capital ship killer. On the other hand, the JSF is more maneuverable in general and has a smaller profile, making it a good starfighter killer.
However, I would completely disagree with your discussion of them in PVP. A Heavy X with a tier 10 engine is no where near 3 times less maneuverable than a JSF, because the Heavy X can HAVE the tier 10 engine, which almost any JSF pilot is going to avoid. A good RE'ing pilot can probably get it on there, but only after many many months of hard RE work, and he'll still sacrifice armor, firepower, to do it.
I'm not sure if you fly the Heavy X, but its a work of art because of its versatility. It is by no means outclassed in everything by the JSF. I have survived multiple hits by a good JSF pilot due to having level 8 RE'd shields (2555 f/b), and 1100 f/b armor only to shunt and destroy my opponent. Heck, last night I went 3 and 0 vs JSFs and 2 and 0 vs Oppressors (not that I'm proud of beating up on an Oppressor..). If you put a pilot of "equal skill" in a well equipped JSF vs me, I will have some problems, but by no means do I think that that pilot will have a significant advantage, rather, it will be a heck of a good fight.
And I just don't think it makes things "easier." Again, it makes Tier 5 fights tolerable. It makes them faster and more intense, as they should be in the Star Wars universe. I just can't get behind sitting there, plugging away at the shields of a Tier 5 Aggressor with an A-Wing and 1 level 7 or 8 blaster for a long time to kill it. That's not the wayI feel the game should fly. Make things harder by making them... well... harder, with more ships, more enemies, tougher objectives... rather than just giving the enemies bigger guns, bigger shields, and faster engines...
Bit in Yellow - how can faster and easier be more intense? That doesnt make sense. More intense is more dangerous with more risk!
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-200506:40 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-200506:47 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 06:47 AM
In this thread, I have seen a some good discussion, but it really just centers around different points of view on the exact same point. I have not seen anything *concrete* posted, so I am going to take a stab at it. Someone else in some other thread mentioned perhaps having chassis modifiers for different parts, and I like this idea for balancing purposes.
A few caveats:
1) I am pulling these numbers out of the air, and while I do not necessarily think this is the way it *should* be, perhaps *something* like this would be a step in the right direction.
2) My flying style lends itself to flying a fast, agile, zippy fighter, not a wallowing tub of *shoot me please, my butt is huge*
3) While I do know some thing or two, I cannot say that I know the extent to which RE's can make a ship uber...how far can it go, is what I mean.
4) There needs to be 2 new ships introduced...heavy variants of the A-wing, and Tie Advanced, landing them somewhere between 80k-90k mass. Boost their maneuverability to 600/600/300 is optional, but I think neither needs it. Honestly, I believe the Tie Advanced should be the most uber dogfighting ship in the game, and that should not change...and I am not an Imperial Pilot.
5) This system assumes two things: Fixing WO3, and possibly a retune of the WO's in terms of cap drain in general.
6) The acceleration, deceleration, and maneurvability of the B-wing should be boosted to match the Oppressor, or at least be closer.
7) All of the ROTW ship certifications should be changed to be Master level only, with somewhere between 1-5 million DS prestige (I know there is no such thing, but perhaps prestige should only be gained there in the first place), before you can fly it. Additionally, the certifications for the heavy variants on the starter ships needs to be moved to tier 4. They make the pilot progression WAY to easy.
Ok, I am going to divide this into 3 sections - light fighters, heavy fighters, POB's
Light fighters - Kihraxz, A-wing, Tie Advanced, Actis, Belbullab, Dunelizard, Interceptor(s), X-wing (both variants), Ixiyen, Vaksai, starter ships and their heavy variants
Heavy fighters - Rihzyrk, Kimogila, B-wing, Oppressor, Aggressor, Y-wing, Tie Bomber, Firespray, Krayt
POB's - obvious
If I have left any out, I am sure we can all agree in which category they should go
Now, to the nuts and bolts:
Engine: Face value for all ships, 25--50% boost in top speed for light fighters
Weapons:
Light fighters: 50-75% of face value for damage
Heavy fighters: 150% of face value for damage
Shields:
Light fighters: 50-75% of face value
Heavy fighters: 100% boost from face value
Armor:
Light fighters: 50% of face value
Heavy fighters: 100% boostfrom face value
Capacitor: Face value for all
Reactor: Face value for all
POB'S: I have said that these ships, while cool, are not masterworthy ships. I would like to see something along the lines of a 500% boost from face value for weapons, shields, and armor. These things with a full crew should be something that I need my *A* game to kill solo, and it should not be able to be done quickly.
I do not suggest changing the mass, drains, hp/armor of any of these components, as it is completely not necessary.
What this will do:
It will bring the firepower and defensive capabilites of the starfighters down, perhaps bringing them back to what they *should* be able to do. I really should not be able to take out a small capital ship in a few passes in a snub fighter, missiles or not.
It will really crank up the firepower and defensive capabilities of the heavy ships, bringing them up to where they *should* be. Honestly, if I am in a light fighter, and a B-wing gets me in his sights I_should_be_dead, but the reverse should not be true. Mass alone does not balance these ships, I am sorry to say.
I'm going to leave this right here for now. I am really interested to see what anyone has to say about this proposition, even if it's to say that I'm a freaking idiot, and a noob for thinking this would be a good idea.
About engines: I really wanted to give a PYR boost to the light fighters, but honestly...they are zippy enough as it is.
Domingo
Message Edited by RedOnedi on 07-21-2005 07:53 AM