Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus: PVP Decay
What I want to see is a healthy space-based economy that includes Shipwrights.
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Again, what do you want to see? A space filled with ships, players dogfighting, engaging in pvp, or an empty space, where everyone takes no risk, to avoid decay?
Please, don't tell me about realism, and logic, and death has to have a sting and other stuff, just tell me what is better for the JtL game experience, and for space pvp: decay or no decay?
I already feel that there is too little dependance on SWs and that there is too little repeat business for SWs. Advocating even less Decay than we have now is, to me, attempting to kill off the crafting side of starship components.
I know that I am taking a broader perspective than this thread might have been meant to have, but I feel that Decay is a necessary and vital part of a system where you have people who make things and people who use those things. If there were no SWs then Decay would not make sense, but there are.
OK, here's a question: How would you like the system to eventually 'clean out' old loot and 'exploited' shields that can not be reproduced by new players and therefore give an advantage in PvP to a small group of veterans?
Shona
SheenaBrelya wrote:
What I want to see is a healthy space-based economy that includes Shipwrights.
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Again, what do you want to see? A space filled with ships, players dogfighting, engaging in pvp, or an empty space, where everyone takes no risk, to avoid decay?Please, don't tell me about realism, and logic, and death has to have a sting and other stuff, just tell me what is better for the JtL game experience, and for space pvp: decay or no decay?
I already feel that there is too little dependance on SWs and that there is too little repeat business for SWs. Advocating even less Decay than we have now is, to me, attempting to kill off the crafting side of starship components.
I know that I am taking a broader perspective than this thread might have been meant to have, but I feel that Decay is a necessary and vital part of a system where you have people who make things and people who use those things. If there were no SWs then Decay would not make sense, but there are.
OK, here's a question: How would you like the system to eventually 'clean out' old loot and 'exploited' shields that can not be reproduced by new players and therefore give an advantage in PvP to a small group of veterans?
Shona
I think in most situations (Like around all the planets, kessel, and mabye in deep space) the reward does not warrant the risk involved with decay. (currently DS has it turned off though).
If they add zones with decay that had rewards great enough to entice players to risk their best loot things will change. Currently I don't think any part of JTL would warrant risking my pre-nerf reward engine. I use it exclusively in deep space only because there is no decay. If there were zones that dropped equally awesome components (even if chanes were 1/1000) I'd be there kicking tail and taking names even with decay. The major mistake the devs are making is they are not offering rewards that warrant risking those high end parts. The "thrill" of battle isn't going to seem that great when I have to remove my 10k 90+ top speed engine because it decay'd. But I'd like there to be a reason to risk it decaying.
SheenaBrelya wrote:
What I want to see is a healthy space-based economy that includes Shipwrights.
Um, ok. Decay and SW honestly have nothing to do with each other at this point. I could care less if those few parts, including my chassis decay. Andd even if I took 10 deaths in a week (has not happened in a LOOOONG time) and had to replace my SW crafted parts, no SW would be making very much cred from me. There are just not enough parts I use from a SW
I already feel that there is too little dependance on SWs and that there is too little repeat business for SWs. Advocating even less Decay than we have now is, to me, attempting to kill off the crafting side of starship components.
I agree with the first statement, but as for the second...until SW can get anywhere near looted stuff, I will stick with my loot components. I am a SW too, and all I ever do is make armour, reactors, missiles and consumables,and RE. I know a few SW out there make cred on other stuff, but not much. Again, decay is not really a SW issue, it is more a protect you loot issue. If this decay keeps up, loot becomes a 10 PvPuse item...not fun.
I know that I am taking a broader perspective than this thread might have been meant to have, but I feel that Decay is a necessary and vital part of a system where you have people who make things and people who use those things. If there were no SWs then Decay would not make sense, but there are.
Again, gets back to the point that no matter how much decay is out there, I will still not use SW crafted items. Most of them just suck.
OK, here's a question: How would you like the system to eventually 'clean out' old loot and 'exploited' shields that can not be reproduced by new players and therefore give an advantage in PvP to a small group of veterans?
Depends, are they going to replace them with current reward items? if so, then I would not mind as much. Exploted shields should be stat wiped anyway to a normal loot shield RE, and the engines...well the cert 6 current reward is actually a great engine, contrary to what some would have you believe. It actually has advantages over the pre-nerf.
Shona
Ok, so SW do not want to loose business, and pilots do not want PvP decay. With PvP decay, pilots loose interest and do not PvP much anymore, hence SW no longer make any creds from an inactive pilot base. Without decay, pilots are a lot more prolific, but the SW do not make cred. Those are the current 2 models.
What we need is a way to preserve hard earned RE Components, and still make cred from the SW. There have been several ideas, from SW being able to set up "insurance terminals" for ships, to being able to repair stuff to pristine, or near pristine condition.
Great, we know what the problem is, we have some workable solutions. I still think PvP should not have decay, period. I do think SW need to have a better working model that what they currently have. I do not think Nerfs are the answer, hell, I think they should bring back the old reward engines...who cares. In PvP they are 50/50 IMHO, with a slight edge going to the pre-nerf.
We need to get a model where both SW and Pilots are viable and I think rather than bickering back and forth, we need to come togther and figure out ideas that will work for both sides so we can have the coro's present a unified front. If they look and see that both the SW coro, and the Pilot coro are posting nearly the exact same, well thought out and balanced ideas, that fit within, or nearly within existing frameworks.....it is more likly we get a solution that tries to help everyone.
I'm not going to touch upon the main point of this thread, except to say that I think some form of decay is logical, and economically necessary. The need or role of SWs, and the viablility of a PvP environment are key issues to me, but I'm not in a position to dip my toes into that today. I just want to toss out a little idea I had, and see how well it's received.
I think an ingame mechanism that allows SWs to refurbish decayed parts is worth exploring and if it were done properly and accepted by pilots, then the issue of decay as "punishment" might fade somewhat. Insurance, special kits, are all good ideas, but here's my variation. As a DE wewere given a droidthat functions in a new and interesting way. The structure maintenance droid, when sent on a "run" will be inaccessible from your datapad for a certain amount of time, usually about an hour at most. However, I was thinking it would be interesting if you could go to a shipwright, and he could have the ability to Drydock your ship (via a terminal or a special building). For an agreed upon fee, the SW docks your ship, and it gets refurbished, along with all parts installed. The process should take hours (8-24 ?) and in that time you don't have access to that ship slot or ship. At the end of the time, the ship is "delivered" back to the starport it was in when the SW took it, in nearly new condition. That's the basics of my idea, there are a lot of little "would be nice" additions I'd like to see too, I'm just wondering if the concept would sit well with people.
Interesting idea... would be a bit like trying to get your car repaired too in RL... but then... that takes even longer if you have to wait for the right parts 
Kitten
TomoRainer wrote:
Well, so long as we're sort of waiting out the storm like this, I'd like to hear your thoughts on something that's been brought up tangentially in the recent PVP tactics thread but not discussed explicitly. Specifically, what do you think of PVP decay?
Currently, unless you hyper to Deep Space for decayless repairs, any damaged component will lose 10% of the armor and HP that get repaired. What do you all think of this? Too much? Too little? Just right? Should we have PVP decay at all? If not, do you think removing it will impact shipwrights, and if so, got any suggestions to "make it up" to them? If not, got any alternate suggestions for keeping a sting to death in PVP, or think one is needed?
It's okay to debate any and all of these things here (and anything else that comes to mind), but I'm mainly looking for how the community feels on the matter, so try not to get heated. We're just exploring on this one.
Iam for leaving PVP as it is. Leave the decay alone, leave the damage alone. We've got a decay free PVP zone already. No need to mess with it anymore. We all know that the more things get "fixed" around here the more they end up...not quite fixed.
I like the risk of decay outside of Deep Space. It keeps me on my toes. I run EO4 on my pre-nerf reward enigne in my PVP ship. If I get shot down outside of Deep Space that is a kill that will really really hurt. But I know that and it's part of the risk I am willing to take. In Deep Space if I get shot down it's no big deal. But when I'm overt and running lvl 4 overloads in Kessle or one of the other sectors...that is a rush.
, thatare flawed. Making space more friendly or more "easy" is not the answer to improving it. I would rather have 5quality pilots in space to fight with than 20 sitting duck pilots who are Ace by badge alone.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
In my opinion, we should leave everything the way it is. In fact, reintroduce PvP decay in Deep Space.
Im gonna revisit something i said that started this whole topic anyway.
For all your pro-decay folks.. heres something for you, (and yes i know its mean):
Lets say you have a prenerf L6 engine. Highly prized, no?
Your overt and enroute to your deepspace station to go farming.
I'm running a blockade on your DS station, and engage you.
Knowing what you have, I intentionally target your engine to maximize the penatly. Longterm, I want to wear that engine of yours down to a nub - which is to my bennfit. I also intentinally let you drift to keep you out of deepspace that much longer - which bennfits my faction. I do not blow you up, i just let you sit there. I doubt you'll sit there longer then 10 mins before you decide to eject, or use vrepair, causing more wear and tear.
How does this make you feel about decay now?
Ducimus wrote:
How does this make you feel about decay now?
For me personally, it changes nothing. I put an Engine in my ship (one that can no longer be 'produced') and took it flying. My actions caused wear and tear on said Engine, as well as other parts. I eventually replace used up parts with new ones (loot, RE, or crafted) that are 'produced' in a system with fewer anomalies (like those pre-nerf Engines).
In the end I feel (1) it is fair as everyone faces the same decay and (2) that the system is better for having a way to 'use up' my anomaly parts (pre-nerf and pre-loot-table-change Engines, pre-fix Shields, etc.).
I see no way to justify making a functional item immune to decay, as there will always be changes in a 'Live' game such as this and there must be a way to 'clean out' anomalies. The 'Hand of a Dev' is a poor solution, as there are rarely any happy people when Devs are forced to manually go into the database to 'fix' out of balance items.
I do not believe I have advocated that PvP should have the same 'Risk' system as PvE because, as people have pointed out, they use very different 'Reward' systems. That does not mean that I think anomalies should be 'free' to use in PvP, either.
Shona
Personnaly, it doesnt matter to me either way. I'm my own shipwright, I RE my own stuff, and have a small stockpile to fall back on.
Back to the topic, I realize that I have danced around the issue, but not exactly answered Tomo's initial query of "what do you think of PVP decay?"
Well, I think it is an evil that should be used for the long term benefit it provides. Why? I have given my views on why, I think.
Deep Space? Well, I like the idea of a Decay-free PvP sector, but I believe it has created problems that should be addressed. DS is used by non-PvP Pilots and by PvPers outside of DS to get around the current Decay system. Having a Decay-less method of experiencing JtL Combat in general also leads to problems. What problems and why? I spoke my mind about that already.
10%? On the surface, taking a percent off the top seems like a decent system. In practice, though, I do not believe it has accomplished the desired goal of getting space components out of the system after a significant amount of use. A Condition stat with a SW ability to 'repair' some of the loss from Decay might work, but taking a percent off stops being effective as Armor/HP get low. What I just said would involve an overhaul of the SW crafting process, which is not likely, though.
It has been said that Decay does not currently affect SWs enough for the Decay discussion to consider the affect on SWs. Personally, I think the Decay discussion should consider how the Decay system should affect SWs, as Decay exists in part as a boon to Crafting professions.
Making Death 'hurt?' I don't really care if Death per se 'hurts,' but it currently seems like the logical place in the system we have to consider Decay. There is no Condition to get used up with usage, so it seems like Death is the right 'time' to hit a player with Decay. Better then than on Launching, Landing, or Jumping, right?
That's all I've got for now.
Shona
What i personnally think is PvP decay in big battle scenario is not conducive. All other situations, i dont really care. I make this distinction, only because of the time frame that has elapsed on decay in standard PvP vs mass PvP.
My last MMO was planetside. Its a virtual online war. You can die in so many inventive and creative ways, "instagib" is part and parcel of the game. In a major battle, you die, ALOT, kissing the spawn tubes 30 times or more in an hour. I would very much like to see a big battle scneario like that develop in JTL. I really really do.
However, In a scenario like that, PvP decay should be out the window. If not, in a 1 hour game session, your ships chassis, and 90% of its componenets would be throughly trashed, and require replacement. That alone would dissuade many from engaging in fights of that sort -myself included, its too expensive! Which is the major reason why i would go for no decay... but only under those conditiions.
As a former shipwright and avid pilot, I'd prefer to see the DeepSpace exploit be fixed, among other changes in relation to decay.
Change it so it 'stores' your ship and part stats when you enter Deep Space and returnsthem to those 'stored' statswhen you leave. It compensates for the difficulty of DeepSpace and gets people into the zone. That way if you go in with half armor, you leave with half armor and no additional decay penalty for dieing or battle in Deep Space. It eliminates the PVE hoppers from repairing for free and not learning from their mistakes. Shipwrights deserve to profit from those mistakes...
PvP Decay needs to remain at zero, this is a must to keep space PvP alive and fun. Shipwrights win here too, because more PvP means missiles get used. Win Win for both professions.
I'd also like to see a space Insurance system implemented though, which would in turn allow ADKs to be used on space parts. Insurance should reduce to decay by 80% just like on the ground, when paid.
To makeADK's fair on armor, it should also mean altering armor to use Hitpoints as the decay stat, not boththe armor statAND hitpoints as it is now.Non-ADK'd armor would disable when the hitpoints became zero. It also pulls some of the ADK's out of the ground game, stimulating the economy all around. Having two stats, one for hitpoints and one for armor never made any sense to me anyway, they both mean exactly the same thing in the end. They even decay at equal rates. One of the two statshits zero, your part is useless. (they both pretty much hit zero at the same time anyway.)
All other parts really should be able to have their armor repaired to full condition as well, basing decay on hitpoint stats alone, just like chasis. This has the added benefit of PvP players having full armor on all their parts, possibly giving them an extra shot or maneuver to turn a battle gone bad around. it gives PVE players a minor advantage as well, but it seems too trivial to worry about.
I don't think chasis need to be insured or Akable, but possibly creating 'refurbish' kits to restore them to pristine condition would be nice. Picture restoring your 10 hitpoint Firespray to 3000 hitpoints for only300k, or a YT-1300? You could charge 10cpu per hitpoint with a 3k max. It beats doling out 500k-8million credits for a new chasis and makes it a waste of money to use them on low level cheap chasis, so shipwrights don't lose out (since they'll make the 'refurbish' kits anyway).
/whew, I may have gotten a little off track and long winded - but I've been rolling these ideas around for awhile now.
Satch_of_GL wrote:
There are few enough people playing JTL as it is. I've only found one opposing, overt, player in the past two weeks. People have been picking up JTL to get a badge and free travel, but they are not staying. Shipwrights have already become wealthy off us, why beat us any more? I've spent close to 40 million between 2 accounts and 4 pilot professions. Do the shipwrights really need more?
WOOOT?
Message Edited by Tsumitsuki on 05-04-2005 08:21 AM