Pilot Archive
Thread: Focus: PVP Decay
Tumbler2002 wrote:
Kitten_Starsider wrote:
As it stands right now most people in PvP use almost only RE'ed components. Most people with rare components go to deep space after they were killed to avoid decay. Few try to establish PvP code of conducts that forbid for example targetting the engine. All of this is fine... and of course intentionally causing decay to someone is griefing.
However, I don't think enforcing decay for all PvP or totally removing decay from PvP will make a big impact on shipwright economy here. It makes it more comfortable for the player as they needn't fly to DS for repairs... it removes a possible way of griefing (if done right and not like the tripple incap)... it removes the hassle with trying to convience other players from your code of conduct (not that that was a problem on Starsider
)... it encourages more people to PvP as they don't risk their rare components.
Wait I'm confused. U said Most ppl go to deep space after being killed to avoid decay. Once they are destroyed they are put infront of a space station and have no choice but to repair, right? So how can they go to deep space to avoid decay? (repair partial then go to deep space?)
And how can u call intentionally causing decay to someone griefing? That is pvp. When I line up on someone, in deep space or not, and he's overt I'm intentionally trying to kill him knowing that in some cases it will cause decay. How is that griefing? He declared himeself overt.
How is targetting engines any different? A kill is a kill, whether he punches out or u destroy the ship it still decays all his components the same no?
Far as I know decay hits u when you take more than a certain amount of damage and try and repair at space stations. Exact numbers I don't know but I think 10% of hp's lost is the ticket. Is that right?
The point is pretty simple... when you are blown up not all of your systems are fully down. If you have enough health left on your reactor and engine you can fly to DS for a full repair at the cost of 30k prestige points. If your engine and/or reactor have been destroyed you have no choice but to repair 25% and thus have less decay. Rebels have a slight advantage here as they have vrepair which shifts hitpoints around so all system have a similar percentage. This if you have hitpoints left on any system you can get your reactor and engine back running to a degree so you can fly back to Deep Space. This does not work perfectly all the times as you will not always have hitpoints left on your components nor will you always end up very ffast after vrepair. I had to creep the 8k from dantooines wrath to the rebel station deep space with only a topspeed of 90 (no on the engine but in the cockpit). Imperials have the advantage here as they only need to fly 1k from the closest hyperspace point to their deep space station.
Additionally, you can avoid getting decay from lvl 4 overloads if you repair 25%, 25%, 50% and then 100% at any space station.
As for causing decay to someones ship being griefing: Most PvP ships run pretty low level crafted reactor and rare RE'ed (sometimes prenerf) engines. Reactors thus generally have lower armor and hitpoints than the engine.
Griefing simply means that you do your very best to spoil your opponent's day so they are pissed. Therefore, the main aspect of griefing is the intention which is also the reason why CSRs have such a hard time banning people for griefing others as ill intention behind actions (as opposed to conversations) is very hard to prove.
People who go up in space know that most of their opponents will have reactors that are easily replaced and engins that take a lot of effort to get back. They also know that their targets reactor is their weakest point as it powers all systems and has the lowest hitpoints. Thus there is literally no reason to target the engine over the reactor. You don't disable your opponent faster you would only do this to force him to take decay so he has to spend days grinding to get his nice engine back. This is griefing.
It is the same griefing is the tripple incap bug on the ground (causes decay), leaving your opponent dead in space so they have to eject (especially this is griefing after targetting the engine) and take double wounds/bf and dont come back and repeatedly incapping jedis. It is all about hurting the player so they get annoyed and angry.
This is a game. Whather it is about a civil war or not we remain players. We play to have fun. As the CSRs cant possibly prove ill intentions behind a given action (like trying to get others ships to decay) it is up to the community to set standards here. People who draw their fun from hurting other people have no place here. How would you feel if someone would repatedly blow up your engine? You'd be angry of course... just as he or she will be if the same happens to him or her. In this type of environment where in the end no one has fun as everyone is at threat to be griefed by someone else. Even more than that. This system destroys itself as less and less people will join those few who were lucky or have the "skill" it takes not to be blown up. You end up never finding anyone in space who will actually challenge your "uberness" (heavy sarcasm here).
Now the opposite. People don't target components or aim for those that are easily replaced (it may happen at times that people accidentally target the engine but it is common courtesy to apologize afterwards and make an effort to not do so again). So you end up with an opponent that did not loose anything that he cannot replace. He will come back eventually and even more... will do his best not to target your engine either (if you indeed talked to him afterwards). Instead of trying to gank you he calls some friends. If you think this through you end up with a nice spontaneous space battle and a pilot community on your server. Now all you need is to add them to your friendslist and you can organise some more scripted events easily.
You both can have fun. And even more you will be respected for your abilities as a pilot and not hated for your immature and immoral tactics.
Kitten
The point is pretty simple... when you are blown up not all of your systems are fully down. If you have enough health left on your reactor and engine you can fly to DS for a full repair at the cost of 30k prestige points. If your engine and/or reactor have been destroyed you have no choice but to repair 25% and thus have less decay.
I was afraid this was the case.
If they are going to have decay in space, pvp or pve, ship destruction should cause all parts to decay before players have the oppurtunity to repair at all. And all systems should be at 0.0
Frankly I'd prefer they get rid of decay in all cases except ship destruction. If you get blown up then decay is a reasonable punishment. You die on the ground most your stuff drops a tad. In space they can implement an insurance system as well so that your components only go down 1% or something if players pay for the insurance.
And players should not be allowed into deep space if they have any damage. Damage cause or received in deep space should be the only free repair. If players want to enjoy decay free death and combat they need to be in deep space.
I really hate that if a new player who is not master takes a few odd hits on his armor he is going to suffer a large amount of decay. If he doesn't get blown up I see no reason to make his armor or parts in general suffer decay.
And with droid programs instead of decay just take larger chunks of armor off so that in combat those systems are more vulnerable. If someone wants to run with EO4 on his engine should lose 400 points of armor while it's running. If that happend these programs would have a negative built in and long as there was no decay unless destruction occured they would be able to repair the component later.
Tier 1 droid programs eat up 50 pts of armor
Tier 2 droid programs eat 100
Tier 3 droid programs eat 200
Tier 4 droid programs eat 400
Running Level 4 droid programs gives HUGE boosts in performance and only very sturdy components should be able to run this anyway. This would stop people from always running level 4 programs no matter the level of the component. Level 5 or less reactors would not be able to run level 4 overloads because that huge armor chunk would disable their ship.
*sarcasm* Yes please restrict PvP to Deep Space and make us buy complete new ships after each death
Kitten
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
It is pretty simple:
Decay keeps people from participating in PvP. All those "Death needs a penalty" blaterers, remember what happened when decay was added to ground? PvP died out. They had to take decay out of pvp battles to get it started again.
So, anyone who wants decay in space pvp basically says he does not want pvp to be more widespread.
There might be Decay-less death in ground PvP, but does your weapon not lose condition because you fired it at another player instead of a MOB? I still think the use of an item should cause wear and tear, an idea that has been implemented on the Ground with slow loss of condition with use and the ability to repair to replace most of what was lost.
What about this: Scrap the 'Decay on Repair' idea and instead implement 'Decay on Damage'
Anywhere outside of Deep Space, whenever any component takes damage, it loses Armor then HP as appropriate, but those values are also permantently reduced 10% of the damage taken, rounded down. Repairing would never be a bad thing, since Decay would have already happened. There would be no way to get around Decay when you take damage or use level 4 Programs outside of DS.
If PvP Decay outside of Deep Space was removed, then the system would just have to be altered to distinguish between enemy player caused damage and everything else so that the permanent 10% was not lost upon the damage taken from direct fire or ordnance fired from another player.
Shona
SheenaBrelya wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
It is pretty simple:
Decay keeps people from participating in PvP. All those "Death needs a penalty" blaterers, remember what happened when decay was added to ground? PvP died out. They had to take decay out of pvp battles to get it started again.
So, anyone who wants decay in space pvp basically says he does not want pvp to be more widespread.
There might be Decay-less death in ground PvP, but does your weapon not lose condition because you fired it at another player instead of a MOB? I still think the use of an item should cause wear and tear, an idea that has been implemented on the Ground with slow loss of condition with use and the ability to repair to replace most of what was lost.
What about this: Scrap the 'Decay on Repair' idea and instead implement 'Decay on Damage'
Anywhere outside of Deep Space, whenever any component takes damage, it loses Armor then HP as appropriate, but those values are also permantently reduced 10% of the damage taken, rounded down. Repairing would never be a bad thing, since Decay would have already happened. There would be no way to get around Decay when you take damage or use level 4 Programs outside of DS.
If PvP Decay outside of Deep Space was removed, then the system would just have to be altered to distinguish between enemy player caused damage and everything else so that the permanent 10% was not lost upon the damage taken from direct fire or ordnance fired from another player.
Shona
Again, what do you want to see? A space filled with ships, players dogfighting, engaging in pvp, or an empty space, where everyone takes no risk, to avoid decay?
Please, don't tell me about realism, and logic, and death has to have a sting and other stuff, just tell me what is better for the JtL game experience, and for space pvp: decay or no decay?
Rogue03 wrote:
If you want decay, then they should also randomize hyperspace exit/spawn points, so people cant just camp them for cheesy pvp kills(must be a big ego boost to blow up someone 1 second after they finish loading).
They should be randomized or have a invulrneablity timer on them decay or no decay anyway.
I'm for allowing PvP decay, but, to encourage PvP in space I would change how PvP'ers acquire prefered components.
Right now a shipwright is useful only to provide the chassis and to Re-Engineer the components used for an uber PvP ship. Since it takes months upon months to acquire enough great components to re-engineer, players are reluctant to risk decay on those components.
This is because replacement components will take months upon months to acquire. What this is is also a barrier toward entry into PvP. We have an entire profession (Shipwright) which should be providing most of the components or should be capable of providing competitively spec'd components to those uber Re-Engineered items.
Change the paradigm.
Allow (Master) Shipwrights to Custom Re-Engineer crafted components.
This would still be expensive and compared to uber equipment (engines, reactors, capacitors,) any Re-Engineered set of crafted items won't exceed the loot Re-Engineered items, BUT, they can come pretty darn close. Enough that replacement of uber equipment won't take months and months of looting, but, can be crafted from resources (which may take months and months to acquire).
PvP'ers would then have the choice of using uber Re-Engineered Loot items, or using Custom Re-Engineered crafted items. For balance purposes you may need to restrict the ability of one used as filler for the other. This lowers the hurdle for entry into PvP.
Crafted components even by maxing one stat (aside from engine speed) are hard pressed to exceed the best looted stat on that same level component. There are some stats which can be crafted specifically to exceed a given loot stat, but, few stats (even with uber resources - which take months and months to accumulate) will exceed the Re-Engineered stat from loot components. What custom Re-Engineering will do is produce components that many PvP'ers will wind up using in their ships. Not every type of component, but, enough that decay could become acceptable. Should become acceptable. This gives Master Shipwrights an on-going market for their goods.
_YakFace_ wrote:
Only 2%-5% decay, but only if you are not overt. PvP overt has to be no decay like in the ground.
I really like your idea here. Being overt while doing missions is too risky for almost all pilots but if there was no chance of decay i'll bet people would do it. I'd really like to see this happen. Would make kessel a very interesting place!
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-29-2005 09:52 AM