Pilot Archive
Thread: Suggestions for improving the fun of space PvP
ajag wrote:
quadpers0n wrote:
no no no. you are talking about WANTS. not needs.
you only NEED engine overload to be competitive. if your objective is to get back into the action *instantly* go with what you NEED, not with what you want. if your objective isn't to get back into the action instantly, go with what you want.
a post claimed it's a 5 minute timesink to rejoin PVP and that is absolutely, 100% false. you don't even NEED droid programs. wanting everything and claiming things as fact that have potential to scare away players is the real selfish act here.
How do you evaluate what is a need and what is a want? For example, all those might seem like wants to you, BUT maybe they are needs for another player in order to be competitive with you. Just remember that not everyone is the same and do not evaluate people/circumstances by what you consider a need or wants.
If WO3 ever gets fixed, there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then people will evolve their fighters to compensate. Damage will be less, but I don't think it would be as detrimental to the game as a PvP damage reduction would be.
quadpers0n wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
There's another alternative to twinking damage in PvP. Alter other components stats based on chassis. B-Wings lose speed and maneuverabilty, so why don't their shields work more efficiently? A-Wings and the ROTW ships have astounding maneuverability, so why don't their shields and whatnot work less efficiently? Keep the Shipwrights from going crazy, but further define the performance of your fighter with respect to its role and its onboard equipment.
By the way, I've never mentioned PvP damage reduction, that was a poor man's fix on the ground. What I was trying to suggest was rebalancing NPC shields to be on par with Player shields, and bringing player weapon damage to par with NPCs. From that point, you can adjust shield/weapon balance as needed for a system of damage and defense that is consistent whether you're fighting a player or an NPC. Right now, its two VERY different game systems at work, and its more work than it should be to keep up with both.
sorry, i'm just not seeing how that isn't some form of mitigation or reduction.
as for the first part of the post, yeah. plenty of people have mentioned that before and it's a good idea. it shouldn't be an astounding change, but theres no reason to not give a few more hits to bombers. that can be done without dmg reduction of any kind.
Lemme try one more time.
The Current System:
NPC: Low damage, high defense
Player: High damage, low defense
Idea: Meet in the middle somewhere.
By a damage reduction, I mean like we used to have in PvP, where you did X amount of damage in PvE and .25 x X in PvP, which is not what I'm suggesting here at all.
I mean give us one system of damage and defense for both sides of the coin. It may entail a reduction in damage,or an increase in shield strength, but the damageand effect should be the same in both PvP and PvE. Make it so that when I shoot a Tier 5 TIE Advanced, its no different that hitting a Player in a TIE Advanced with components that match the level of the NPC.Maybe it means no more less than a minute PvP battles, and no more 2 and three minute pursuits of Tier 5 fighters, just make it so we can transition from PvP to PvE and back again without having to hit a starport to get the other fighter. There's got to be a workable middle ground that avoids me needing to have two fighters that are great at one type of flying and nearly useless in the other.
Kharn wrote:
quadpers0n wrote:
i still really don't see where you are coming from with the timesink. believe me, i despise timesinks as well, but you spawn at the station, hit RO4, hyperspace, enter DS and hit EO4, it literally takes less than a minute. also, how do people who are done leave the zone if they spawn at the station? maybe you need to "clone" inside the station then run to your ship and launch, it's not really a timesink (aside from loading times). but then you have the problem of no buffer in which to run more than 1 droid program. i don't know, i'm just struggling to really see the timesink.
I head to DS for three things. PvP, loot and faction in that order. So getting back into DS *FOR ME* requires a stop off at the faction outpost. I also like to start out with at least EO4 running when I get back. This *REQUIRES* RO4 since I haven't managed to loot a 25K gen reactor to power my ship with yet. quad, this is *MY* time sink. I don't want to enter DS without being overt. The probability of getting a lot of repeat PvP is simply too sporadic on my server to *not* enter DS without going back overt. Now, you can say that I don't need it, but you'd be WRONG. This is *MY* loadout. Stop trying to dictate to *ME* what I need and what I want. I'm happy for you that you are satisfied spawning at the station, hitting EO4 and then transitioning into DS in less than a minute.
To do the 'load at station' idea, you would probably need to add a respawn box with options:
Respawn at station with current overloads running and free repair(some cost of prestige, would 2x the cost of entering be fine?)
Respawn at station with nothing other than free repair(some cost of prestige, standard 30k for entering should be fine)
Respawn at Entry station(free)
Respawn at Planetary station(free) (this is what happens today)
i understand that perfectly. believe me, i'm in 100% agreement. that's a timesink i don't like either. the problem is you aren't understanding what this post is about. it's about PVP. the comment was made in relation to the timesink in rejoinging PVP. this is a PVP thread. if you need to rejoin PVP asap, you can. you don't NEED to have a 5 minute timesink. once PVP is over, exit the zone and go overt again. i do exactly the same thing as you before i go into DS. i don't like it either. i start my hyperspace sequence the second i load in empire's justice because i don't like the timesink.
but there is no 5 minute required timesink to get right back in the thick of a pvp battle. that simply is not correct.
I haven't been sent back to the station in the last couple of weeks, but I did have to leave cause my booster, countermeasure and one gun got disabled in a really good duel. 
Sadly, that person didn't come back into DS. Like I said earlier, it's a problem on my server with sporadic PvP in DS. Some people have been trying to get it going, but it's slow work.
*edit:hit submit before I was finished.
Message Edited by Kharn on 06-21-2005 01:45 PM
Loki_Ashaman wrote:1. Is the timer that big of a deal?
I havent read the rest of the thread as so far, im just responding to this.
The downtime complaints i can understand. Here's why:
Usually when i die, its because i did something stupid. I'm angry. I want to get back up there and smash that other guys cockpit in with my foot (if i could). Hell if i could id jump out of my ship, and pound on his hull with a sledgehammer.
In short....
RAAAWWWRRRRR!!!!!!
So needless to say, when i die due to an act of stupidity on my part, or if its a case of, "that mother F****r!!!" im an angry pilot, which is probably an understantment. Thankfully these incidents have been rare experiences to me in the past.
Anyway, i dont want to sit there and have my DC say i cant run anotherp rogram for XX seconds. I just want to slam the ship back in the hyperdrive, get back in there, and KICK HIS TEETH IN!!!
The longer i wait on those Droid commands, the angerier i get. So ya.. i can understand downtime complaints. lol
Kharn wrote:
Most of the time I get back and find the person who killed me is either leaving when I get back, or has already left to go log.
Sadly, that person didn't come back into DS. Like I said earlier, it's a problem on my server with sporadic PvP in DS. Some people have been trying to get it going, but it's slow work.
*edit:hit submit before I was finished.
Message Edited by Kharn on 06-21-2005 01:45 PM
there are tricks to improve it, gorath was, and sometimes is, like that too.
really get the word out to your guildmates, fellow pilots, etc at the monetary potential of DS. for a long time it seemed like people were content with keeping a lid on it, but really it's your best bet at massive amounts of loot and cash. especially as your efficiency grows as your ship improves.
rebels reading this, everyone says DS isn't as efficient for rebels, primarily because of the gunboats, but i really think it's an organization issue instead. i've never tried being a rebel, but i've grinded a few gunboats in my krayt. it's not easy, you probably need more people to be really efficient at it, but i believe DS is still the answer.
and if it's really not, thats one thing that can be changed to improve PVP.it should be a zone of contention, not a place for imps to grind. i wonder if the rebel gunboats get fixed if people will abandon DS as a grind zone altogether?
we talk about balance issues and sweeping changes though and alot of times we forget about bugs that may introduce a bigger disparity into everything. those probably could stand to be fixed first so we can evaluate things without a bunch if rediculous variables thrown in.
quadpers0n wrote:
Kharn wrote:
Most of the time I get back and find the person who killed me is either leaving when I get back, or has already left to go log.
Sadly, that person didn't come back into DS. Like I said earlier, it's a problem on my server with sporadic PvP in DS. Some people have been trying to get it going, but it's slow work.
*edit:hit submit before I was finished.
Message Edited by Kharn on 06-21-2005 01:45 PM
there are tricks to improve it, gorath was, and sometimes is, like that too.
really get the word out to your guildmates, fellow pilots, etc at the monetary potential of DS. for a long time it seemed like people were content with keeping a lid on it, but really it's your best bet at massive amounts of loot and cash. especially as your efficiency grows as your ship improves.
rebels reading this, everyone says DS isn't as efficient for rebels, primarily because of the gunboats, but i really think it's an organization issue instead. i've never tried being a rebel, but i've grinded a few gunboats in my krayt. it's not easy, you probably need more people to be really efficient at it, but i believe DS is still the answer.
and if it's really not, thats one thing that can be changed to improve PVP.it should be a zone of contention, not a place for imps to grind. i wonder if the rebel gunboats get fixed if people will abandon DS as a grind zone altogether?
we talk about balance issues and sweeping changes though and alot of times we forget about bugs that may introduce a bigger disparity into everything. those probably could stand to be fixed first so we can evaluate things without a bunch if rediculous variables thrown in.
Add Imperial Nebulon-B frigates for Rebel pilots to shoot down, and then you'll need instances to keep the Rebels from outnumbering you.
I also think overload delays could be cut down. They at least need to be fixed so their timers are actually correct; right now Capacitor Overload is the only one that correctly scales your delays. All the others are a 5x delay even if you're not running O4 programs. I did a dev thread on droid commands recently and pointed out this bug, along with suggesting they should give some thought to simply reducing all overload delays to a 1x modifier. We've already got the downtime of flying between factional stations either to declare or head to DS or both, and while I don't like getting zerged either, I don't think we really need droid command-related downtime on top of that.
As far as a straight damage reduction goes, I don't think it's a good idea within the current system. Not when I'm missing 99.5% of the time already. The fact light fighters are so fast and maneuverable and small makes them hard enough to kill as it is. Toss cap to shield shunt on top of damage reduction and I do think you'd end up with pilots who're effectively invincible.
Now, POBs definitely need some help in PVP, and a damage reduction or shield modifier might actually be the best solution there. Hypothetically speaking, it might be worth also thinking about a modest damage reduction for other fat, sluggish ships that currently have a hard time in PVP, but when we cross over into starfighters, deciding which ships "deserve" a reduction and which don't can get arbitrary in a hurry. That's not to say it'd be impossible to sort out some kind of system meant to flatten out some of the imbalances with PVP, just that it'd be extremely difficult when the room for error is so slim.
And, as always, it's premature to be discussing any changes to PVP damage when WO3 remains bugged.
Rorenikibi wrote:
quadpers0n wrote:
Kharn wrote:
Most of the time I get back and find the person who killed me is either leaving when I get back, or has already left to go log.
Sadly, that person didn't come back into DS. Like I said earlier, it's a problem on my server with sporadic PvP in DS. Some people have been trying to get it going, but it's slow work.
*edit:hit submit before I was finished.Message Edited by Kharn on 06-21-2005 01:45 PM
there are tricks to improve it, gorath was, and sometimes is, like that too.
really get the word out to your guildmates, fellow pilots, etc at the monetary potential of DS. for a long time it seemed like people were content with keeping a lid on it, but really it's your best bet at massive amounts of loot and cash. especially as your efficiency grows as your ship improves.
rebels reading this, everyone says DS isn't as efficient for rebels, primarily because of the gunboats, but i really think it's an organization issue instead. i've never tried being a rebel, but i've grinded a few gunboats in my krayt. it's not easy, you probably need more people to be really efficient at it, but i believe DS is still the answer.
and if it's really not, thats one thing that can be changed to improve PVP.it should be a zone of contention, not a place for imps to grind. i wonder if the rebel gunboats get fixed if people will abandon DS as a grind zone altogether?
we talk about balance issues and sweeping changes though and alot of times we forget about bugs that may introduce a bigger disparity into everything. those probably could stand to be fixed first so we can evaluate things without a bunch if rediculous variables thrown in.
Add Imperial Nebulon-B frigates for Rebel pilots to shoot down, and then you'll need instances to keep the Rebels from outnumbering you.
i wish.
TomoRainer wrote:
For the record, I don't think we should have decay in PVP. It seems like an unnecessary discouragement. I want people to be able to get up there and have fun without either worrying about 10% decays on their components or having to spend an extra 5 minutes jumping in and out of Deep Space. It can take a lot of experience to get good at space PVP, but with the penalty for dying outside DS so steep, I'm afraid some players will decide it's just not worth it. That's one less potential wingman or enemy you'll have up there.
I also think overload delays could be cut down. They at least need to be fixed so their timers are actually correct; right now Capacitor Overload is the only one that correctly scales your delays. All the others are a 5x delay even if you're not running O4 programs. I did a dev thread on droid commands recently and pointed out this bug, along with suggesting they should give some thought to simply reducing all overload delays to a 1x modifier. We've already got the downtime of flying between factional stations either to declare or head to DS or both, and while I don't like getting zerged either, I don't think we really need droid command-related downtime on top of that.
As far as a straight damage reduction goes, I don't think it's a good idea within the current system. Not when I'm missing 99.5% of the time already. The fact light fighters are so fast and maneuverable and small makes them hard enough to kill as it is. Toss cap to shield shunt on top of damage reduction and I do think you'd end up with pilots who're effectively invincible.
Now, POBs definitely need some help in PVP, and a damage reduction or shield modifier might actually be the best solution there. Hypothetically speaking, it might be worth also thinking about a modest damage reduction for other fat, sluggish ships that currently have a hard time in PVP, but when we cross over into starfighters, deciding which ships "deserve" a reduction and which don't can get arbitrary in a hurry. That's not to say it'd be impossible to sort out some kind of system meant to flatten out some of the imbalances with PVP, just that it'd be extremely difficult when the room for error is so slim.
And, as always, it's premature to be discussing any changes to PVP damage when WO3 remains bugged.
Consider then the alternative of shield modifications based on chassis type. Heavies like the Krayt, Y-Wing and B-Wing need love too. Don't reduce weapon damage, just alter shields. We're giving up the speed and maneuvering that protects the smaller fighters, why not give us something back for it?
TomoRainer wrote:
For the record, I don't think we should have decay in PVP. It seems like an unnecessary discouragement. I want people to be able to get up there and have fun without either worrying about 10% decays on their components or having to spend an extra 5 minutes jumping in and out of Deep Space. It can take a lot of experience to get good at space PVP, but with the penalty for dying outside DS so steep, I'm afraid some players will decide it's just not worth it. That's one less potential wingman or enemy you'll have up there.
I also think overload delays could be cut down. They at least need to be fixed so their timers are actually correct; right now Capacitor Overload is the only one that correctly scales your delays. All the others are a 5x delay even if you're not running O4 programs. I did a dev thread on droid commands recently and pointed out this bug, along with suggesting they should give some thought to simply reducing all overload delays to a 1x modifier. We've already got the downtime of flying between factional stations either to declare or head to DS or both, and while I don't like getting zerged either, I don't think we really need droid command-related downtime on top of that.
As far as a straight damage reduction goes, I don't think it's a good idea within the current system. Not when I'm missing 99.5% of the time already. The fact light fighters are so fast and maneuverable and small makes them hard enough to kill as it is. Toss cap to shield shunt on top of damage reduction and I do think you'd end up with pilots who're effectively invincible.
Now, POBs definitely need some help in PVP, and a damage reduction or shield modifier might actually be the best solution there. Hypothetically speaking, it might be worth also thinking about a modest damage reduction for other fat, sluggish ships that currently have a hard time in PVP, but when we cross over into starfighters, deciding which ships "deserve" a reduction and which don't can get arbitrary in a hurry. That's not to say it'd be impossible to sort out some kind of system meant to flatten out some of the imbalances with PVP, just that it'd be extremely difficult when the room for error is so slim.
And, as always, it's premature to be discussing any changes to PVP damage when WO3 remains bugged.
what i keep wondering is why they don't bump the values for elite pob shields slightly, then dramatically improve elite armor. i'm talking 20-30k. given the current PVE system we have i don't think this would imbalance much of anything. these pilots are already master, and they need help flying the ship.maybe i'm not seeing changes down the road that this would affect though.
i'd love it if they reduced damage affecting POB ships only though. i wonder if that's possible.