Pilot Archive
Thread: Suggestions for improving the fun of space PvP
quadpers0n wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
Where space PvP is failing is in its exclusivity of template. Right now, the only competitive ships are high speed, ultramaneuverable ships with a monstrous engine, crazy YPR and a BFG on the nose.
Different chassis for different professions and quests, but the statistical performance range for function in PvP is needle point thin. Heavy Fighters, POBs, and Fighter/Bombers have zero role in PvP other than cannon fodder.
That's. Just. Plain. Wrong.
PvP on the ground was deemed screwed up because only professions dealing in Mind damage were ever viable when the statistical range of functional PvP armor became equally narrow pre-CU. If you're PvP armor wasn't 85-90% composite, and your template didn't have a Mind shot, you didn't PvP as anything more than cannon fodder (or a Jedi).
PvP will only be viable and workable when its all encompassing. The POBs, B-Wings, Kraytsand Oppressors need to be as much a part of the working picture as the JSF and Vaskai. You guys who think this is all kosher are in the same trap that Riflemen/Combat medics were in with their 90% armor and 1500 tick Mind Poison and Stun damage JawaRifles.You've narrowed the range of workable performance to the narrowest pinnacle possible, and you think because it works for you, anyone else who thinks they should be able to do it differently and perform just as well are simply whining.
Get your heads out of your ass and look at the big picture for a friggin' minute.
WRONG
this is EXACTLY the kind of misinformed BS that experienced pilots are fighting to get people to stop posting. it's idiocy and proved completely untrue day in and day out.
i fly my oppressor exclusively.and i have won almost 80 fights.itis big and comparatively slow. in space PVP you can fly whatever you want and remain competitive. point in fact i flew a kihraxz with bazaar equipment and a level 5 gun for 1 month and won more than i lost. you sir, are flat out misinformed.
the only part of your post that has any validity whatsoever is the fact that POB ships do not fit in. i have addressed that point no less than 3 times on this thread.
really it's you who needs to get his head out of his ass. you are taking your own annecdotal experiences and posting them as if they were fact although players who do pvprefute your "facts" every single day. hell, the top two PVP'ers on gorath fly oppressors. just because you think heavy ships have no purpose doesn't mean it's so. they actually have a very well defined role and that role is supported by light fighters. you want to talk about parity in this game? a heavy fighter can take out a light fighter even though that should not really be possible. that's parity and would be utterly impossible with a damage reduction mechanic.it's absurd to compare the current dynamic to temploits or anything to do with ground combat.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 06-21-2005 10:34 AM
Try flying a B-Wing or a Krayt, and get back to me. I've never been in an Oppressor, so I'm probably not as informed of its abilities as I am the others. I've gone around a few times with a Krayt flying an A-Wing and it has NO CHANCE. I'm not even doing top speed and I'm flying circles around it. A B-Wing's YPR is so ridiculously low, that smaller, faster fighters fly circles around it. I've put a 70 YPR, 92 speed engine in the B-Wing and haven't lasted more than a minute in PvP, even with Engine Overload 4. The same engine in an X-Wing offered no improvement in performance as I was flattened repeatedly by Royal TIEs anda JSF.
So do me a favor, drop the caps and obnoxious font sizes. I'm not impressed.
ajag wrote:
quadpers0n wrote:
no no no. you are talking about WANTS. not needs.
you only NEED engine overload to be competitive. if your objective is to get back into the action *instantly* go with what you NEED, not with what you want. if your objective isn't to get back into the action instantly, go with what you want.
a post claimed it's a 5 minute timesink to rejoin PVP and that is absolutely, 100% false. you don't even NEED droid programs. wanting everything and claiming things as fact that have potential to scare away players is the real selfish act here.
How do you evaluate what is a need and what is a want? For example, all those might seem like wants to you, BUT maybe they are needs for another player in order to be competitive with you. Just remember that not everyone is the same and do not evaluate people/circumstances by what you consider a need or wants.
maybe another player absolutely needs WO3 to be competitive in PVP? please.
and i've flown a krayt in PVP for 10-15 fights. won maybe 10 of them. what you aren't realizing is right now heavy fighters don't have a well defined PVP role.
why?
because the targets for their massive guns, POB ships, don't have appopriate shielding. again, as i've stated 3 times already in this thread that you haven't bothered reading.
can you please explain to me what you want out of a krayt? you want it to handle like a light fighter? you realize that if you put lvl 3 guns on a krayt and lvl 3 guns on a tie heavy the tie heavy will win 100% of the time? you realize if you put lvl 5 guns on a krayt and lvl 3 guns on a tie heavy the tie heavy will win likely 100% of the time?
listen, your krayt is not meant to be a dogfighting pvp powerhouse. it's meant to unload massive amounts of ordinance on big targets. big targets that are absent in PVP right now because of bugs and the devs approaching elite equipment values with caution. when that is corrected big ships like the krayt are going to be invaluable in PVP.
but, for the record, you can make one viable now, you just have to know what your weaknesses are and how to overcome them. and really, the hitbox size of neutral ships is neither here nor there on this thread. it could take 100 hits in PVPand that still would not change the hitbox size. figure out what it is your a complaining about and if in the end you still want to use a krayt, figure out how to make it work. people do it every day, so why can't you?
Try flying a B-Wing or a Krayt, and get back to me. I've never been in an Oppressor, so I'm probably not as informed of its abilities as I am the others. I've gone around a few times with a Krayt flying an A-Wing and it has NO CHANCE. I'm not even doing top speed and I'm flying circles around it. A B-Wing's YPR is so ridiculously low, that smaller, faster fighters fly circles around it. I've put a 70 YPR, 92 speed engine in the B-Wing and haven't lasted more than a minute in PvP, even with Engine Overload 4. The same engine in an X-Wing offered no improvement in performance as I was flattened repeatedly by Royal TIEs anda JSF.
So do me a favor, drop the caps and obnoxious font sizes. I'm not impressed.
i'll do whatever i want with the font.
A.) i've used a krayt in PVP before. it's a freaking tank and you are trying to take out a tank buster. complaining about going up against an a-wing has to be one of the most rediculous things i've heard. even more rediculous because in the current system you can win. in a damage reduction system you would not. PERIOD.
B.)the b-wing?
ITS A BOMBER! wth? you are actually complaining about a bomber not being able to compete with a light fighter?
and, just like with the krayt i have flown against exceptional b-wing pilots that made it work. but you know what? most people realize what's going on when they are flying a bomber and have the brainpower to figure out that bombers probably need an escort.
not to mention the fact that if you are grinding for loot/faction a heavy ship like that is by far the most efficient thing you can possibly be flying. so not only do you want a massively efficient PVE ship, you want a massively efficient PVP ship as well, able to compete on par with the fighters designed to take you out. i guess i see where you guys are coming from now.
quadpers0n wrote:
not to mention the fact that if you are grinding for loot/faction a heavy ship like that is by far the most efficient thing you can possibly be flying. so not only do you want a massively efficient PVE ship, you want a massively efficient PVP ship as well, able to compete on par with the fighters designed to take you out. i guess i see where you guys are coming from now.
the ones crafted by shipwrights seem to have better mass.
get some decent level 3-5 components and your ready to go.
in space PvP its more about your piloting skills that will make the difference. Also, The real nice thing about Z-95 its comes a dime a dozen...and cheap. No big loss if it decays down to 10/10 condition...just go buy another one for 2k. LOL
all that needs to change is POB elite armor and shielding then. that accomplishes 70% of what both of you are asking for. currently heavies go down to light fighters. 1/3 of it is there.
with POB armor/shields in it's proper place they would go down to heavy fighters and not to light fighters.
listen, i appreciate what your saying about balanced roles and heavy fighters lasting longer vs smaller ships. the issue though is that the interceptor in front of you is also using the finest shield. there will always be pilots out there who literally perfect their ships under this system.
in a perfect pvp game light fighters would have 1 strength of gun. heavies would have another. POBs would have one more. the same would apply to shields and armor,but we just don't have that game. reworking the entire system is a goal i don't think we should be striving for. i don't think it's a viable possibility. the devs gave us the ability to manage equipment save some of the other proposals people have mentioned in the past, nothing on this thread fixes that essential problem.
believe me, posters before you have come up with stellar ideas. but they aren't in this thread. damage reduction has been mentioned. damage reduction will not work.
There's another alternative to twinking damage in PvP. Alter other components stats based on chassis. B-Wings lose speed and maneuverabilty, so why don't their shields work more efficiently? A-Wings and the ROTW ships have astounding maneuverability, so why don't their shields and whatnot work less efficiently? Keep the Shipwrights from going crazy, but further define the performance of your fighter with respect to its role and its onboard equipment.
By the way, I've never mentioned PvP damage reduction, that was a poor man's fix on the ground. What I was trying to suggest was rebalancing NPC shields to be on par with Player shields, and bringing player weapon damage to par with NPCs. From that point, you can adjust shield/weapon balance as needed for a system of damage and defense that is consistent whether you're fighting a player or an NPC. Right now, its two VERY different game systems at work, and its more work than it should be to keep up with both.
Malcolm_CaKre wrote:
A couple of additional points I'd like to make in here...
* Us old, release-day pilots probably all have the 15-second level 1 & 2 droid interfaces. Those are not available any more. Now, in order to get the same mass and power performance, a pilot has to use something in the 25-30 second range -- or they can spend a lot of mass and a bit more power and get down under 15 seconds in a Level 7 or 8-ish DI.
* All overload programs are 5x speed multiplier. That means it takes your DI 5 times it's speed rating to reset and be ready to go again. For a single overload with a 15 second DI, that's 75 seconds -- a minute and a quarter. For somebody who's stuck with a 30 second DI, that's 150 seconds -- two and a half minutes. Sure, they can still fly while they wait, but somebody who needs RO in order to get their EO running will be out of action while they wait. And, once they get to the DS-station, they might still have to wait for reset if they want to have a shield shunt available, should they be hit with a recoverable glancing blow.
i understand what youare saying about the programs, it doesn't have anything to do with the DIs, up until last week I used a lvl 6. my point is that you don't absolutely need all your programs running to be viable.
does it help? yeah it does, but it's not critical. it's not as essential as buffs used to be on the ground for instance, it's not like you can't pvp without them, especially since you can definately pick 1 to run before you get in the zone and still havea shield stunt.
this is neither here nor there though, i'd love to load in DS with full commands, my point was that if you can miss the fact that you don't absolutely need to spend 5 minutes in a timesink then you could likely miss that PVP could be ruined by extensively modifying the current dmg dynamic. the point wasn't that having to spend X amount of time before being at 100% sucks. yeah it sucks, sure.
Rorenikibi wrote:
There's another alternative to twinking damage in PvP. Alter other components stats based on chassis. B-Wings lose speed and maneuverabilty, so why don't their shields work more efficiently? A-Wings and the ROTW ships have astounding maneuverability, so why don't their shields and whatnot work less efficiently? Keep the Shipwrights from going crazy, but further define the performance of your fighter with respect to its role and its onboard equipment.
By the way, I've never mentioned PvP damage reduction, that was a poor man's fix on the ground. What I was trying to suggest was rebalancing NPC shields to be on par with Player shields, and bringing player weapon damage to par with NPCs. From that point, you can adjust shield/weapon balance as needed for a system of damage and defense that is consistent whether you're fighting a player or an NPC. Right now, its two VERY different game systems at work, and its more work than it should be to keep up with both.
sorry, i'm just not seeing how that isn't some form of mitigation or reduction.
as for the first part of the post, yeah. plenty of people have mentioned that before and it's a good idea. it shouldn't be an astounding change, but theres no reason to not give a few more hits to bombers. that can be done without dmg reduction of any kind.
I have some droid overhaul ideas that should help PvP:
1- Allow droids to re-enable disabled components, even an auto-repair for the DI when it's disabled. "R2, that stabilizer's gotten loose again, see if you can't lock it down!"
2- Replace the rebel droid programs. I, a rebel pilot, use only imp and private programs when I fly. Ideas include shield overcharge, component enabling, etc. Keep the adjust ones as they are good for specific purposes. The front/back reinforcement programs are useless compared to the cap to shield shunt.
*Please reduce the mass and power drain of crafted components. Although they can mostly match performance stats to crafted ones, they still are guzzlers of power and mass. If everything they fly in is fully replacable, including reward chassies, people would be much less afraid of decay.
quadpers0n wrote:i still really don't see where you are coming from with the timesink. believe me, i despise timesinks as well, but you spawn at the station, hit RO4, hyperspace, enter DS and hit EO4, it literally takes less than a minute. also, how do people who are done leave the zone if they spawn at the station? maybe you need to "clone" inside the station then run to your ship and launch, it's not really a timesink (aside from loading times). but then you have the problem of no buffer in which to run more than 1 droid program. i don't know, i'm just struggling to really see the timesink.
I head to DS for three things. PvP, loot and faction in that order. So getting back into DS *FOR ME* requires a stop off at the faction outpost. I also like to start out with at least EO4 running when I get back. This *REQUIRES* RO4 since I haven't managed to loot a 25K gen reactor to power my ship with yet. quad, this is *MY* time sink. I don't want to enter DS without being overt. The probability of getting a lot of repeat PvP is simply too sporadic on my server to *not* enter DS without going back overt. Now, you can say that I don't need it, but you'd be WRONG. This is *MY* loadout. Stop trying to dictate to *ME* what I need and what I want. I'm happy for you that you are satisfied spawning at the station, hitting EO4 and then transitioning into DS in less than a minute.
To do the 'load at station' idea, you would probably need to add a respawn box with options:
Respawn at station with current overloads running and free repair(some cost of prestige, would 2x the cost of entering be fine?)
Respawn at station with nothing other than free repair(some cost of prestige, standard 30k for entering should be fine)
Respawn at Entry station(free)
Respawn at Planetary station(free) (this is what happens today)
you know what i really think that hurts PVP but hasn't been mentioned anywhere?
the lack of a zone for pre masters to go PVP. yeah there's kessel now, but you have to be overt and it's an extra step that i don't think is needed. pre masters need a place to go to experience real PVP without having to go overt and look.
i don't care about the mission, move it to another zone, make a new zone for it, whatever. but lower level pilots (tier 3 and 4) need a centralized place to go fight, i think that makes a huge difference in appreciating PVP and getting used to the aspects of it that may be difficult early on. most of the time pre masters are using lesser guns, they'll have the oppertunity to go up against other people with lesser guns, learn the value of the droid programs in PVP, especially in how disparaging and detrimental wo3 is. etc. etc. maybe make a new pre master pvp zone and limit it to pre masters only.
you know, that's another thing that hasn't been touched on at all. wo3's influence on PVP. once that gets fixed, will people still be loading up twin lvl 10s on their ship? PVP may be one shot, but many many time's it's not the first shot and PVE, forget about it, capacitor strength will now begin to play a role in determining DPS.
it's possible a whole lot of people may be dishing out a whole lot less damage, especially lighter fighters.