Pilot Archive
Thread: ROTW ships: How would you correct them?
JanuHull
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:59 pm
#66
Halyn wrote:
If WO3 is fixed before RotW fighters are rebalanced, we're going to really, really see how overpowered some fighters in particular (the Actis and Belbullab come to mind) are compared to others. When PvP pilots can't afford to spam shots endlessly until they connect, or are shooting at half damage because they can't afford power for overloads, the Actis and Belbullab are going to be virtually invincible in PvP combat.
Unless you're someone like me who's balanced his ship to humiliate JSF pilots using WO2. Frankly, I think a whole array of PvP set ups are going to evaporate with WO3's fix.
Attacca
Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:59 pm
#67
silverlady wrote:
On the topic of WO3...has anyone looked at how a WO3 fix might (or will) change what they can do with their current setups?
I did the math based off the droid program faq listed around here somewhere once. Most of my ships will actually be okay as is, my 2 gun Oppressor will require EO3 instead of 4, and on my big ships I'm just going to have to work in a bigger reactor.
Only catch with a WO3 is that reactors don't scale well per level, there isn't a whole lot of flexibility on power until you get up to about level 8 - everything under that tends tocap at around 14k regen, with the exception of some rare level 7's.
JediNg, that just means you fly different, and are coming up against poor pilots. Someone else said it better already - just because you can WTFPWND! some guy in an Actis with your A-Wing doesn't mean the Actis isn't a superior ship, just a lousy pilot was in it. Equally matched pilots in different ships, the Actis will have a massive advantage.
DigitalOne
Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:05 pm
#68
ETA Actis - I would keep the mass the same, but the hitbox should be signifigantly increased, the maunverability on this thing is also rediculosly high and should be tuned down quite a bit. But the weaponloadout and other things are okay
Belbulab b-22 Same as actis
Vaksai - had no experiance with this ship'
Heavy X-wing knock off 30k mass bringing it down to 150k, all else okay
ARC-130 knock off 30k ham and nerf its mauverability aswell
Starter ships - i think these things are wonderfully ballanced, they pack barly any punch,buthave rounded off handleing, and a good amount of mass. They are also a good way of using starter ships in the high end game for those who like their skins, and this is what they should be. However i would move thier certification to tier 4, or even master pilot.
Y-8 well, bug fixes for one, add 2 side turrets, and rethink the top and bottom ones too. Observe the countless posts on this ship for ideas.
JediNg
Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:40 pm
#69
Attacca wrote:
silverlady wrote:
On the topic of WO3...has anyone looked at how a WO3 fix might (or will) change what they can do with their current setups?
I did the math based off the droid program faq listed around here somewhere once. Most of my ships will actually be okay as is, my 2 gun Oppressor will require EO3 instead of 4, and on my big ships I'm just going to have to work in a bigger reactor.
Only catch with a WO3 is that reactors don't scale well per level, there isn't a whole lot of flexibility on power until you get up to about level 8 - everything under that tends tocap at around 14k regen, with the exception of some rare level 7's.
JediNg, that just means you fly different, and are coming up against poor pilots. Someone else said it better already - just because you can WTFPWND! some guy in an Actis with your A-Wing doesn't mean the Actis isn't a superior ship, just a lousy pilot was in it. Equally matched pilots in different ships, the Actis will have a massive advantage.
You can ask any of the pilots i have fought, like vegitaa whom doesnt fight much anymore. I really dont fire much.
R9D14
Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:09 pm
#70
fix nothing except the quests and the RGI hitbox, maybe give the ARC a little more mass.
If they are going to nerf the JSF or Heavy X-wing they can just take htem back from me.
TrevetOlivaw
Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:35 am
#71
I know I don't post much here, but I think I'd like to throw my 2 cents in, as someone who wants to be an A-wing or regular X-wing pilot in PvP down the line. I've been frequenting the forums for a few weeks now, learning all sorts of awesome things, but I have noticed some constants, and some of these do regard the ROTW ships.
Firstly, my proposed changes:
RGI: Fix hitbox (by which I mean make it the same size as the Interceptor, not a JSF. These games should at least try to mirror what I see when I'm flying, and when I start putting shot after shot through any ship without hitting it because it's designated hitbox is smaller than the 3D model, I get annoyed) I realize this makes it essentially an interceptor with 20k more mass.....I'd say thats a pretty nice boost right there. I don't think a 2nd gunslot should be out of the question, though perhaps that should result in decreased maneuverability. Basically a Heavy Interceptor model, maybe with 100k mass, great speed, 2 guns, but less turning.
Actis: Reduce mass. I know its hard to get a pair of guns in there, but definitely not impossible, and using two L6 guns certainly isn't any weaker than a single L8 gun. The thing hasonly slightly reducedspeed and better turning than theTIE Adv.and A-wing, with more guns and mass. The hitbox is no bigger than either ship, certainly. I'd say you either knock down mass to 55-60k, or knock down maneuver to something around the A-wing/Advanced performance. Personally I'd like to see the maneuverability changed downward. Just looking at the values on the JSF has caused me to do a double-take about 6 times.
B-22: Similar to Actis. I'd say for variety still in ship-thought, maybe give one the reduced mass, and reduce the maneuver on the other one. Both will then still be slower than the Awing/Advanced, but have other advantages that still make them powerful.
Adv. X-wing: I admit, I'm a giant fan of this ship and its (to quote someone who I forgot) Lawn-mowing capabilities. And it really doesn't turn that well, certainly not at speed (though the .5 best turn does have its own advantages...). However, I'd say knocking off 30k mass (bringing overall mass to 150k) wouldn't hurt you.
Vaksai: For people who have said the Vaksai doesn't need balancing, but recommending dropping the heavy X to 150k mass or below.....are you kidding me? The vaksai has one of the highest masses, as 1.0 speed modifier, and turns better than any JTL ship (excepting starting ships and TIE Fighters). Admittedly, it only has one gun. I'd say you still need to somehow bring it into balance. I was considering maybe a 2nd missile hardpoint, with a mass reduced to 100k, and speed maybe chopped to ARC level .97.
Heavy Starters: Reduce maneuver on these. RIght now, none of them are really that great, the hitboxes are gigantic, and your weapons loadout can never be awesome. But for a starter ship, it's a little ridiculous. Chopping it in half seems good.
ARC-170: This ship I have never seen as unbalanced, perhaps because of its lack of use. Can't really say much about it other than the 125k mass really cant go down very much, and its neither as fast, nor as maneuverable as many other ships out there. I've always felt awkward flying it. I also consider it one of the biggest selling points for altering the vaksai's mass lower.
Y-8: I want one. Give me a break. However you broke it, assuming it wasn't intentional, fix it.
Gonna hit briefly - with allof my few secondsofexperience showing so clearly - on what Silverlady has said. Yes, the new ships are great, powerful toys for younger players just starting out. Thing is though, when you take that ship designed to be extremely powerful so thatthe new guycan solo asquadron of TIE Advanced and get that 'Star Wars' feel, and place it in the hands of the pilots that were ALREADY soloing a wing of Advanced in a Y-wing.....well, it's unbalancing. Also, to be frank, the new guys who rush through, grab the JSF or RGI and start going, "GREAT, this is so much fun now!".....do you honestly think those are the type of players that seriously care about all these stats, and balancing? Nope. They just got their ship, and now they like killing stuff in it. Change the stats, they probably will barely notice. On the other hand, those that PvP seriously, who've spent hours and days and weeks improving their PvP flying, getting REable parts, etc.....to those guys, it makes a giant difference. Suddenly their old Advanced/A-wing (actuallytwo wonderfully new and revolutionary starfighters)are a match for these antiques out there in space. And if the newer guys notice, and start getting annoyed because suddenly they have to think a little when they fly....well, no harm in that. I really doubt people will be quitting just because their ships are closer to the JTL level of capability.
Also, any point made about pre-nerf components, or the veterans having all these great parts, and how that requires new guys to get uber ships to balance all the great parts the vets have....that argument is ridiculous from the get-go. Because NOW, those vets still have those absolutely awesome parts, and they are sticking them in the new newbie toys, and making ships so unbelievable that when matched with these pilots flying ability.... Well, let's just say the pilots themselves feel bad and terribly unfair using them. Many have stopped. Some don't, and I can easily understand both perspectives. Any uberness granted to a brand new pilot is given x10 to the vets out there.
On the point of all those uber-parts.....those are parts these vets earned. They didn't fall into their lap, and no one is giving away the type of stuff we are talking about. Sure, maybe someone find a non-pilot selling one of the best reactors in the game for 3k....doesn't happen very much. Thevetswent out, and they took duty mission after duty mission, spent hours upon hours in DS, bought for ridiculously insane prices all of the nicest stuff they could find. They masted all 9 badges (not just for equipment, but also for fun and experience, too). I don't want some new player to come in and be able to immediately match that sort of performance and effort (and as noted earlier, thats not how it works out anyway).
As far as making the new ships master level certs....I'm sorry. I've seen pilots walked from Novice Pilot to Master Pilot by guild members or friends, without ever having to learn anything or do anything other than survive some of the hairier missions long enough for friends to kill the assailants. You just postpone the problem by making them master level certs, and some people can and will get carried all the way. I don't think its a bad idea, but it's no solution.
Ultimately, skill is still the largest factor in a space PvP fight. If you are significantly better than the other pilot, doesn't matter much who's flying what, he's going down. But the ROTW ships have suddenly introduced ships that mean that if you are only a little better, and using a classic JTL ship, you might go down despite your parts, efforts, and skills. OK, fine. The pilot community seems to have come to terms with that, and has learned how to fight the new menaces. But their rapid ability to adapt to a suddenly monochromatic lookin space does not mean that the impact isn't still felt, or that the new additions are good things in their current form.
Anyway, that's my two cents on it.
Attacca
Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:38 am
#72
An interesting take, leaving the mass as is. I could live with that if the hitbox is enlarged, and the handling trimmed down as well to be more in line with a bigger, heavier ship. Not exactly cannon, but it'd fly well. 90k mass shouldn't fly better than 50k mass, especially on antiques.
Saabotage wrote:
Actis-2: mass is probably fine for the JsF(giant circular bubble in the middle). The hitbox should be increased over the A-wing to at least 1/3 bigger then the A-wing. either the A-wings natural y/p/r should be increased, or the Actis-2 needs to be decreased. Fact is the A-wing came out years after the JsF (which is a prototype). Theirfore we should not expect it to perform on every level better then the A-wing.
Bel-22:Same as the Actis.
Saabotage
Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:40 am
#73
DarthGorilla wrote:
JanuHull wrote:
Well, we've b*tched and moaned enough. How would you change them? What would make them "balanced" in your opinion? Lets run this under the "rational" assumption that we're bringing the new ships into line with the old.
I'm only commenting myself on ships I've faced personally.
Imperial Guard Interceptor: Fix the hitbox location
Actis-2: Reduce mass to 60k. I can live with it being small, I can live with it having top performance maneuverability, but having 50% more mass than a ship its 33% smaller than, doesn't fit logic or gameplay balance. Reduce weapons load out to one gun.
Bel-22: Same as the Actis.
Advanced X-Wing: Reduce mass to 140k or worsen flight performance to match its enhanced mass. 180k puts it entirely too close to a B-Wing's level of loadout with a space superiority level of performance.
Unfortunately they can't be 'fixed' in a way that's fair and who really want the 'Pre-Nerf' item inflation you see on some ground items. The only viable option is to re-vamp the existing ships especially the tier 4 ships that are suppose to be equal or better than these ships. PVE content will likely need a boost to keep up. Personally I think it's the heavy varients like the Z-95 that are making pilot too easy. The tier 4 ships are out of balance but as far as PvE is concerned I don't think they make that much of a difference for a 4333 pilot. PvP is more about the pilot and the loadout than the ship anyway. What would be nice would be to see some parts that could only be equiped on certain ships like the "Elite" Items for POB ships. Like an "Elite A-wing Sensor Jammer" or and "Bomber targeting computer" for TIE bombers, Y-wings, B-wings, and Oppressors that allow even faster targeting locks.
I wish we had Booster shunt to shield, and capacitor shunt to booster, and shield shunt to booster and shield shunt to capacitor.......... Yuo get the idea.....
Phizuol
Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:53 am
#74
If the nerfs end up giving Freelance a 65k ship with an A-Wing/TIE Advanced sized hitbox I'm for it.
Washell
Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:30 am
#75
Remember what happened in the groundgame when they upped all the stuff for 18 months to correct imbalances? Ended with the CU to bring everything to normal levels.
SOE made a mistake releasing this ships with stats that are out of line with current ships. Most pre-RotW pilots feel the old game was balanced and fun. The stats that are proposed here bring the ships in line with the old system and let them fill a few gaps that existed.
Raptor2k1
Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:47 am
#76
Isamu-alva wrote:
R9D14 wrote:
fix nothing except the quests and the RGI hitbox, maybe give the ARC a little more mass.
If they are going to nerf the JSF or Heavy X-wing they can just take htem back from me.
QFE EXACTLY!!
If you nerf these ships you have a lot of disgruntled customers quitting the game... THIS HURTS A LOT OF PLAYERS!!
I really don't see the how some people just cant grasp the solution to this arguement, the solution (which I've posted countless times) is to up the mass and handling of the pre-ROTW ships... THIS HURTS NO-ONE!
Then everyone wins, the pre-rotw ships become more attractive prospects for pilots to fly and those that want to keep the JSF B-22 etc. can do so if they wish.
Oh and before someone posts "you cant do that, the database is too complicated to up the mass on the old ships" bear in mind you are the same person who wants the same database adjusted in the same way to "reduce the mass on the new ships" it's the same database
Don't be naive, it hurts everyone. Ship distinction will be tossed out the window since you'll really be able to fit all you need into any chassis, and once you pass a certain YPR point, the advantages you gain become smaller and smaller (anything over 300ish is extremely manueverable). If you up the YPR and mass on everything else you end up with a bunch of highly manueverable ships that don't have to sacrifice anything important.
The beauty of the original ship balance is that you had to make sacrifices, and thus there was differentiation (with a small amount of problems due to inadequate defenses on bombers and MP ships). You couldn't take a highly manueverable ship and stick the best shields in the game in it if you wanted it to be able to fly fast at all, or do any damage. Likewise, ships that could afford to have beefier components sacrificed manueverability and speed.
Furthermore, the assumption that mass amounts of players will leave the game if the RotW figthers are balanced is incredibly silly. People said the same thing about the CU and what happened? Some whiny folks left, but the game was overall much better off, and it's long-term success prospects are much better as a result. This case is no different. A balance has to be restored where fighters of varying types fill varying roles, wheras your suggestion would mean that everything would be an 'uber' fighter (you probably don't think it wouldend upthis way, but it would).
Isamu-alva
Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:34 am
#77
Fair enough I see some of your points but if you nerf the pre-rotw ships you are still going to get a lot of disgruntled players and here's my take on why..
The main reason to do a quest for in item or ship is because there is something that this item has that you cannot get from a crafted item be it asthetic "look and feel" or improved statistics.
For instance the AV-21, fastest speeder in the game, can only be crafted from a looted schematic and poweplant, the quest requires you to head up to a corellian corvette and basically fight for your life for 30mins for the reward, that's IF you succeed on your first attempt, which is rare, so you're looking at on average 2 or 3 attempts at this quest to get a result, a couple of hours of non-stop hardcore gaming.
Imagine one day you log on and your AV-21 is suddenly getting overtaken by noobs in x-31's, how are you going to feel having gone through all that to get your quested item to find it's suddenly worthless.
Now apply that to the heavy x-wing that you fought those 3 gunboats and a corvette for, or the belbullab that took you and 7 of your friends 2 hours of fighting in the caves and killing necrosis to get you (ignore the fact that they are bugged and you can buy them, I'm talking getting them the real way not the cheat way).
I've had it happen to me with a DE-10 pistol I fought tooth and nail for, I logged in post-CU and a half beaten fwg5 that I looted off a meatlump had better stats than my blood sweat and tears DE-10, my reaction.. I dropped pistoleer in frustration never to return to the profession.
Now apply that to someone who loves flying his JSF / B-22 / whatever, people react quickly and do stupid things when angry.
So people either quit pilot or pack away thier JSF's in frustration, the veteran pilot community is happy.
6 months later everyone is either in a tie-intercepter or an a-wing (you dont see any privateers pvp because we dont have a small dogfighter anymore cos the vaksai and b-22 now suck) and someone posts "hey there's not a lot of variey in space anymore" and we are back to square one.
The main reason to do a quest for in item or ship is because there is something that this item has that you cannot get from a crafted item be it asthetic "look and feel" or improved statistics.
For instance the AV-21, fastest speeder in the game, can only be crafted from a looted schematic and poweplant, the quest requires you to head up to a corellian corvette and basically fight for your life for 30mins for the reward, that's IF you succeed on your first attempt, which is rare, so you're looking at on average 2 or 3 attempts at this quest to get a result, a couple of hours of non-stop hardcore gaming.
Imagine one day you log on and your AV-21 is suddenly getting overtaken by noobs in x-31's, how are you going to feel having gone through all that to get your quested item to find it's suddenly worthless.
Now apply that to the heavy x-wing that you fought those 3 gunboats and a corvette for, or the belbullab that took you and 7 of your friends 2 hours of fighting in the caves and killing necrosis to get you (ignore the fact that they are bugged and you can buy them, I'm talking getting them the real way not the cheat way).
I've had it happen to me with a DE-10 pistol I fought tooth and nail for, I logged in post-CU and a half beaten fwg5 that I looted off a meatlump had better stats than my blood sweat and tears DE-10, my reaction.. I dropped pistoleer in frustration never to return to the profession.
Now apply that to someone who loves flying his JSF / B-22 / whatever, people react quickly and do stupid things when angry.
So people either quit pilot or pack away thier JSF's in frustration, the veteran pilot community is happy.
6 months later everyone is either in a tie-intercepter or an a-wing (you dont see any privateers pvp because we dont have a small dogfighter anymore cos the vaksai and b-22 now suck) and someone posts "hey there's not a lot of variey in space anymore" and we are back to square one.
JediNg
Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:11 am
#78
Isamu-alva wrote:
Fair enough I see some of your points but if you nerf the pre-rotw ships you are still going to get a lot of disgruntled players and here's my take on why..
The main reason to do a quest for in item or ship is because there is something that this item has that you cannot get from a crafted item be it asthetic "look and feel" or improved statistics.
For instance the AV-21, fastest speeder in the game, can only be crafted from a looted schematic and poweplant, the quest requires you to head up to a corellian corvette and basically fight for your life for 30mins for the reward, that's IF you succeed on your first attempt, which is rare, so you're looking at on average 2 or 3 attempts at this quest to get a result, a couple of hours of non-stop hardcore gaming.
Imagine one day you log on and your AV-21 is suddenly getting overtaken by noobs in x-31's, how are you going to feel having gone through all that to get your quested item to find it's suddenly worthless.
Now apply that to the heavy x-wing that you fought those 3 gunboats and a corvette for, or the belbullab that took you and 7 of your friends 2 hours of fighting in the caves and killing necrosis to get you (ignore the fact that they are bugged and you can buy them, I'm talking getting them the real way not the cheat way).
I've had it happen to me with a DE-10 pistol I fought tooth and nail for, I logged in post-CU and a half beaten fwg5 that I looted off a meatlump had better stats than my blood sweat and tears DE-10, my reaction.. I dropped pistoleer in frustration never to return to the profession.
Now apply that to someone who loves flying his JSF / B-22 / whatever, people react quickly and do stupid things when angry.
So people either quit pilot or pack away thier JSF's in frustration, the veteran pilot community is happy.
6 months later everyone is either in a tie-intercepter or an a-wing (you dont see any privateers pvp because we dont have a small dogfighter anymore cos the vaksai and b-22 now suck) and someone posts "hey there's not a lot of variey in space anymore" and we are back to square one.
Glad someone found the proverbial vicious cycle