Pilot Archive

Thread: Suggestions for improving the fun of space PvP

Malcolm_CaKre
Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:41 am
#40

I'd like to thank, again, everybody who's posted critique and feedback. It's good that we have people who enjoy our game enough to participate in this forum and thread.


Let me explain where I'm coming from. I think that will help understand my motivations for suggesting the changes that I have, and supporting the changes that I do.


I was not part of JTL beta, but I came up with the first gen of JTL-release pilots. Since that time, I've trained and shepherded lots of new pilots up the trees, eventually to become my guild's pilot go-to guy. I also frequently get called upon by friends in other guilds to help out with missions, 'vette takedowns, and so on. I'm not the best pilot there is, but I've got my hours in -- I've been playing in, understanding, and explaining the system since it came out. I've spent untold hours working on ship components, to squeeze out that last little bit of performance. I've helped a lot of people get better as pilots.


I've taken people up to Deep Space before. With the exception of *one* person, who came up with me as a first-gen JTL-release-day pilot, everybody who's gone up there and encountered PvP has had the same reaction: "Well, that sucked... I'm going to go do something else. Thanks for all the help, Mal! Seeya!" I don't have a hard number for you, but I can tell you that in my experience, the nature of space PvP turns off lots more people than it turns on.




Now, don't get me wrong... I do enjoy the blitz encounters of space PvP. I'd enjoy longer encounters too, of course. What I *don't* enjoy is the terrible return on my play time invested. If I'm going to spend several minutes just getting to the play zone, I want the fight to last several minutes as well.


I think I mentioned, above, my own personal highlight of space PvP... exchanging kills with a guy near the star destroyer. Over the course of a half hour or 40 minutes, we killed each other 3 or 4 times. We spent perhaps 5 minutes of actual fighting. **In my most-fun PvP session in space, I spent several times more playtime commuting than fighting.**





But, let's set damage reduction and all other fight-prolonging changes aside for a moment. If I could get back in the action more quickly, I'd be a lot happier, and I think my other pilot friends would be to. With the changes in the (instant overloads/tunings, nodecay overloads, reappear at faction station ready to go) set, the fight could resume more quickly, and a <1m blitz fight isn't nearly such a bad playtime investment. And newbies could get enough encounters in in an evening to learn something. That would take care of a lot of my core issues, without getting the blitz fighters cranky.


Now, take that list of changes, and apply them to Deep Space. Change things around so that both people just arriving and recently killed in DS appear right next to either Freedom Station or the ISD, as appropriate. If you're killed in DS, you reappear with your previous droid programs still running, in addition to all decay removed. Maybe put in a 30-second load timer like we've got on the ground.


Now, we've got a battle in DS! You only have to commute to the battlefield *once*. If you get killed, you don't have to spend a ton of downtime waiting to get your ship back up to overloaded status. You get to spend a lot more time playing and fighting, and a lot less time waiting.And the fighting squadrons generally stick together, since they'll all be in-system together, instead of waiting on missing members to reappear so they can form up to fight again.


From here, it's not a long jump to add some objectives to battle in DS. Since people re-appear at their factional station to get back into the fight, make that the focus of the battle. Say, you can only re-appear in DS after being killed, if FS or ISD (as appropriate) is still alive. Once somebody takes out your base, you have to spend the time flying back from Dantooine, Endor, or Dathomir station, exactly as you do now. (Maybe give the winning team double FP or something if they're ever unopposed by anyplayers or enemy station in DS, to have a real prize for a winning DS battle.)


I'd really enjoy something like that, but it would take some changes to increase fun playtime and reducedown playtime. I still think that damage reduction, or some other fight-prolonging changes would be helpful, and give a role to more different types of craft, but I concede that space PvP could be made a lot more fun without it... *IF* we're able to fight more and wait less.




Thanks again!



mal

ajag
Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:48 am
#41

I do agree with the idea of showing back in DS at your factional base with all the droid commands active right after dying. It would speed up the process a lot. However, each death should cost 30k prestige points just to keep cost we had before from going into deep space.




AJAG
<SToD> - Teamspeak Ninja
I'll kick your... *Player left*
SToD

-I support the wholesale slaughter of Rebel terrorists...You can too!

quadpers0n
Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:58 am
#42

i still really don't see where you are coming from with the timesink. believe me, i despise timesinks as well, but you spawn at the station, hit RO4, hyperspace, enter DS and hit EO4, it literally takes less than a minute. also, how do people who are done leave the zone if they spawn at the station? maybe you need to "clone" inside the station then run to your ship and launch, it's not really a timesink (aside from loading times). but then you have the problem of no buffer in which to run more than 1 droid program. i don't know, i'm just struggling to really see the timesink.


i've had players who said "that sucked" and leave as well after PVP. but again, you don't know they are basing that entirely off dying in one hit. bring those same pilots to PVP vs someone with a better engine and give them both weak guns. does constantly turning without even seeing the player on your screen while he shoots you elicit a different response? so they die in 10 hits without landing 1 on their opponent. i guess i really don't understand how that is any more fun. you died because you have weaker equipment, not due to a flaw in your aim or a flaw in your manuvering. you die in the current system and you really have only yourself to blame.


in the end PVE may be responsible for that. current PVE doesn't foster the mentality that you should not get hit, it fosters the mentality that you can not worry about those fighters on your tail while you blow up the target in front of you. do we really want that dynamic in PVP as well?


i see what people are saying when they say it's over too fast, but people aren't stopping to think about how the game works and why the flip side of the coin is such a bad idea. they need to be educated, and helped along. there's many ways to improve things for people, the easiest one i can think of is recommend they use the ultimate training wheelsakathe grievious ship and JSF.




-meeuki


lumpini
ajag
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:12 am
#43

Quadpers, it is true what you say if you only run 2 droid commands like you do, however, a lota lot of people (if not most)run 4 droid commands plus you still have to take in consideration the time before you can run cap shun to shields right after trigerring that fourth droid command. Specially for people who are just learning or are heading to DS for PvE.


All I am saying is that your particular set up does not usually match the set up/play styles of other people so evaluating a situation based only on your experience is not correct. You cannot just expect everyone to follow your play style in order to save time.


The time sink basically depends on how many droid commands you want to run.




AJAG
<SToD> - Teamspeak Ninja
I'll kick your... *Player left*
SToD

-I support the wholesale slaughter of Rebel terrorists...You can too!

quadpers0n
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:26 am
#44

that's not my scenario. i only need eo4 and i have a great reactor so i just load up, hit hyperspace and hit 1 button.


if they need to get into the zone ASAP, there are a plethora of options available to them. if they are just going back for PVE they can take an extra 20 seconds to load all the programs they want. all i'm saying is it is NOT a 5 minute timesink as players in here are purporting. you don't even need to run any programs if you don't want to.


hell, run 1 then run 1 the second you load in DS. loading in the zone resets the DI counter remember.







-meeuki


lumpini
quadpers0n
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:30 am
#45







Rorenikibi wrote:

Where space PvP is failing is in its exclusivity of template. Right now, the only competitive ships are high speed, ultramaneuverable ships with a monstrous engine, crazy YPR and a BFG on the nose.


Different chassis for different professions and quests, but the statistical performance range for function in PvP is needle point thin. Heavy Fighters, POBs, and Fighter/Bombers have zero role in PvP other than cannon fodder.


That's. Just. Plain. Wrong.


PvP on the ground was deemed screwed up because only professions dealing in Mind damage were ever viable when the statistical range of functional PvP armor became equally narrow pre-CU. If you're PvP armor wasn't 85-90% composite, and your template didn't have a Mind shot, you didn't PvP as anything more than cannon fodder (or a Jedi).


PvP will only be viable and workable when its all encompassing. The POBs, B-Wings, Kraytsand Oppressors need to be as much a part of the working picture as the JSF and Vaskai. You guys who think this is all kosher are in the same trap that Riflemen/Combat medics were in with their 90% armor and 1500 tick Mind Poison and Stun damage JawaRifles.You've narrowed the range of workable performance to the narrowest pinnacle possible, and you think because it works for you, anyone else who thinks they should be able to do it differently and perform just as well are simply whining.


Get your heads out of your ass and look at the big picture for a friggin' minute.







WRONG


this is EXACTLY the kind of misinformed BS that experienced pilots are fighting to get people to stop posting. it's idiocy and proved completely untrue day in and day out.


i fly my oppressor exclusively.and i have won almost 80 fights.itis big and comparatively slow. in space PVP you can fly whatever you want and remain competitive. point in fact i flew a kihraxz with bazaar equipment and a level 5 gun for 1 month and won more than i lost. you sir, are flat out misinformed.


the only part of your post that has any validity whatsoever is the fact that POB ships do not fit in. i have addressed that point no less than 3 times on this thread.


really it's you who needs to get his head out of his ass. you are taking your own annecdotal experiences and posting them as if they were fact although players who do pvprefute your "facts" every single day. hell, the top two PVP'ers on gorath fly oppressors. just because you think heavy ships have no purpose doesn't mean it's so. they actually have a very well defined role and that role is supported by light fighters. you want to talk about parity in this game? a heavy fighter can take out a light fighter even though that should not really be possible. that's parity and would be utterly impossible with a damage reduction mechanic.it's absurd to compare the current dynamic to temploits or anything to do with ground combat.

Message Edited by quadpers0n on 06-21-2005 10:34 AM



-meeuki


lumpini
ajag
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:33 am
#46

Once again, you are failing to see the scenarios from other people. That you only need 1 droid program does not mena everyone is on the same boat. Assuming each droid program takes between 40 - 60 seconds, that is already 4 minutes in the process. Yes, the timer does get reset when you hyper but you only hyper once. So assume you can lower it down to 3 minutes, you still have hte timer form the last one that you have to wait to expire. A lot of people on this forum somehow become selfish and fail to see the need of others. Right now you are acting that way by basically saying, I do not need to run 4 droid programs so too bad for those who do, wither run 1 like me or let them take a long time. Assuming the above idea got implemented, It would not affect you at all. It would benefit you aswell but not as much as it would benefit others. Really, I am not flaming you, ust making an observation.





AJAG
<SToD> - Teamspeak Ninja
I'll kick your... *Player left*
SToD

-I support the wholesale slaughter of Rebel terrorists...You can too!

quadpers0n
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:36 am
#47

no no no. you are talking about WANTS. not needs.


you only NEED engine overload to be competitive. if your objective is to get back into the action *instantly* go with what you NEED, not with what you want. if your objective isn't to get back into the action instantly, go with what you want.


a post claimed it's a 5 minute timesink to rejoin PVP and that is absolutely, 100% false. you don't even NEED droid programs. wanting everything and claiming things as fact that have potential to scare away players is the real selfish act here.





-meeuki


lumpini
quadpers0n
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:40 am
#48

let's be perfectly clear to new players out there who might be reading this.


you don't need a perfect ship


you don't need a ton of droid programs


you don't need massive guns


you don't need massive shields.


and most importantly, you don't need to win 100% of the time.


does all that stuff help? absolutely but you don't need to worry about anything,just get up there and fight. aim and awareness can take the place of all your trinkets and worries every single day you fly. posters on this thread are arguing about their composite and buffs not being good enough and they don't even need any of it.






-meeuki


lumpini
ajag
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:40 am
#49






quadpers0n wrote:







Rorenikibi wrote:

Where space PvP is failing is in its exclusivity of template. Right now, the only competitive ships are high speed, ultramaneuverable ships with a monstrous engine, crazy YPR and a BFG on the nose.


Different chassis for different professions and quests, but the statistical performance range for function in PvP is needle point thin. Heavy Fighters, POBs, and Fighter/Bombers have zero role in PvP other than cannon fodder.


That's. Just. Plain. Wrong.


PvP on the ground was deemed screwed up because only professions dealing in Mind damage were ever viable when the statistical range of functional PvP armor became equally narrow pre-CU. If you're PvP armor wasn't 85-90% composite, and your template didn't have a Mind shot, you didn't PvP as anything more than cannon fodder (or a Jedi).


PvP will only be viable and workable when its all encompassing. The POBs, B-Wings, Kraytsand Oppressors need to be as much a part of the working picture as the JSF and Vaskai. You guys who think this is all kosher are in the same trap that Riflemen/Combat medics were in with their 90% armor and 1500 tick Mind Poison and Stun damage JawaRifles.You've narrowed the range of workable performance to the narrowest pinnacle possible, and you think because it works for you, anyone else who thinks they should be able to do it differently and perform just as well are simply whining.


Get your heads out of your ass and look at the big picture for a friggin' minute.







WRONG


this is EXACTLY the kind of misinformed BS that experienced pilots are fighting to get people to stop posting. it's idiocy and proved completely untrue day in and day out.


i fly my oppressor exclusively.and i have won almost 80 fights.itis big and comparatively slow. in space PVP you can fly whatever you want and remain competitive. point in fact i flew a kihraxz with bazaar equipment and a level 5 gun for 1 month and won more than i lost. you sir, are flat out misinformed.


the only part of your post that has any validity whatsoever is the fact that POB ships do not fit in. i have addressed that point no less than 3 times on this thread.


really it's you who needs to get his head out of his ass. you are taking your own annecdotal experiences and posting them as if they were fact although players who do pvprefute your "facts" every single day. hell, the top two PVP'ers on gorath fly oppressors. just because you think heavy ships have no purpose doesn't mean it's so. they actually have a very well defined role and that role is supported by light fighters. you want to talk about parity in this game? a heavy fighter can take out a light fighter even though that should not really be possible. that's parity and would be utterly impossible with a damage reduction mechanic.it's absurd to compare the current dynamic to temploits or anything to do with ground combat.


Message Edited by quadpers0n on 06-21-2005 10:34 AM




Not true quadpers. The opressor and the kihraxz are relatively small targets as seen here: http://img139.echo.cx/img139/3392/swgships0yy.jpg

Now they can use the same weapons as the bigger ships assuming you are good at handling your ship's mass which most people got the hang of right now. Now take the Krayt and although it has much more fire power, much more mass, and can possibly use a lot more armor than your opressor, it is too big of a target to be usable in PvP with the amount of firepower you can dish from any ship. you can put 2k armor on it and it is still worthless. Try flyinging one in PvP and see if you still think the same way.




AJAG
<SToD> - Teamspeak Ninja
I'll kick your... *Player left*
SToD

-I support the wholesale slaughter of Rebel terrorists...You can too!

Loki_Ashaman
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:42 am
#50

1. Is the timer that big of a deal? The time it takes to fire up my ship I use to mentally re-run the last fight to better combat my enemies tactics, when I'm with a group its a great way to get as many people re-grouped at the DS load station so you're not all loading one at a time.


2. Gotta agree with quad on the viablity of the bigger ships, except the POBs pretty much any ship can be effective in PvP. It all comes down to tactics. Fit your ship to your tactics.






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Mardius Ashalar, Commissar: Commander of the Daishi
Larikuj V'neef, DOH Mall: Theed (-5240, 2770)
"A pilot without his attitude is just some guy" - TomoRainer


ajag
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:44 am
#51






quadpers0n wrote:

no no no. you are talking about WANTS. not needs.


you only NEED engine overload to be competitive. if your objective is to get back into the action *instantly* go with what you NEED, not with what you want. if your objective isn't to get back into the action instantly, go with what you want.


a post claimed it's a 5 minute timesink to rejoin PVP and that is absolutely, 100% false. you don't even NEED droid programs. wanting everything and claiming things as fact that have potential to scare away players is the real selfish act here.








How do you evaluate what is a need and what is a want? For example, all those might seem like wants to you, BUT maybe they are needs for another player in order to be competitive with you. Just remember that not everyone is the same and do not evaluate people/circumstances by what you consider a need or wants.





AJAG
<SToD> - Teamspeak Ninja
I'll kick your... *Player left*
SToD

-I support the wholesale slaughter of Rebel terrorists...You can too!

Loki_Ashaman
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:46 am
#52






ajag wrote:





quadpers0n wrote:







Rorenikibi wrote:

Where space PvP is failing is in its exclusivity of template. Right now, the only competitive ships are high speed, ultramaneuverable ships with a monstrous engine, crazy YPR and a BFG on the nose.


Different chassis for different professions and quests, but the statistical performance range for function in PvP is needle point thin. Heavy Fighters, POBs, and Fighter/Bombers have zero role in PvP other than cannon fodder.


That's. Just. Plain. Wrong.


PvP on the ground was deemed screwed up because only professions dealing in Mind damage were ever viable when the statistical range of functional PvP armor became equally narrow pre-CU. If you're PvP armor wasn't 85-90% composite, and your template didn't have a Mind shot, you didn't PvP as anything more than cannon fodder (or a Jedi).


PvP will only be viable and workable when its all encompassing. The POBs, B-Wings, Kraytsand Oppressors need to be as much a part of the working picture as the JSF and Vaskai. You guys who think this is all kosher are in the same trap that Riflemen/Combat medics were in with their 90% armor and 1500 tick Mind Poison and Stun damage JawaRifles.You've narrowed the range of workable performance to the narrowest pinnacle possible, and you think because it works for you, anyone else who thinks they should be able to do it differently and perform just as well are simply whining.


Get your heads out of your ass and look at the big picture for a friggin' minute.







WRONG


this is EXACTLY the kind of misinformed BS that experienced pilots are fighting to get people to stop posting. it's idiocy and proved completely untrue day in and day out.


i fly my oppressor exclusively.and i have won almost 80 fights.itis big and comparatively slow. in space PVP you can fly whatever you want and remain competitive. point in fact i flew a kihraxz with bazaar equipment and a level 5 gun for 1 month and won more than i lost. you sir, are flat out misinformed.


the only part of your post that has any validity whatsoever is the fact that POB ships do not fit in. i have addressed that point no less than 3 times on this thread.


really it's you who needs to get his head out of his ass. you are taking your own annecdotal experiences and posting them as if they were fact although players who do pvprefute your "facts" every single day. hell, the top two PVP'ers on gorath fly oppressors. just because you think heavy ships have no purpose doesn't mean it's so. they actually have a very well defined role and that role is supported by light fighters. you want to talk about parity in this game? a heavy fighter can take out a light fighter even though that should not really be possible. that's parity and would be utterly impossible with a damage reduction mechanic.it's absurd to compare the current dynamic to temploits or anything to do with ground combat.


Message Edited by quadpers0n on 06-21-2005 10:34 AM




Not true quadpers. The opressor and the kihraxz are relatively small targets as seen here: http://img139.echo.cx/img139/3392/swgships0yy.jpg

Now they can use the same weapons as the bigger ships assuming you are good at handling your ship's mass which most people got the hang of right now. Now take the Krayt and although it has much more fire power, much more mass, and can possibly use a lot more armor than your opressor, it is too big of a target to be usable in PvP with the amount of firepower you can dish from any ship. you can put 2k armor on it and it is still worthless. Try flyinging one in PvP and see if you still think the same way.





BS. I flew my alts Krayt in a huge PvP battle a few weeks back. I died4 times is all during that very long night, and took out more then a few A-wings and JSFs. I survived far more hits then I died to. Yeah its huge, so don't present a target - get in and out of their range FAST.





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Mardius Ashalar, Commissar: Commander of the Daishi
Larikuj V'neef, DOH Mall: Theed (-5240, 2770)
"A pilot without his attitude is just some guy" - TomoRainer


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