Pilot Archive

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DosWindo wrote:

Riskless reward... hmmm... I've been blown up during a trip to the bathroom. I've zigged when I should have zagged and had my rear shield blown out by NPC's. There's as much risk in the sky as there is on the ground. Whether that's enough risk for some folk is up to the individual.

But the idea thatforcing faction is going to strengthen PvP simply doesn't make sense, given what we already know. We already know that even when there is no risk, people still don't PvP. There's a sector of "forced" PvP now and folksof which I've only seen one person in at any given time.I believe the main problems to be defective MP ships, 3 shot kills, and a lack of incentive. Forcing PvP on folks in order to fly X-wings and TIE's isn't incentive. It will send people packing, and Galaxies will share it's fate with Motor City Online. SOE knows this, why don't you?

The part of this that supports your argument is the fact that it offers no real reward, either. Compared to the other stuff you can do in space, it seems like a big "nothing". Now, if you take the really smokin' parts, and you put 'em in Deep Space, you just might have your incentive. But even then, people will tire of getting their arses blown up from behind while they're trying to take out a gunboat. How 'bout high paying escort or patrol missions(take out 5 PCships)in Deep Space? Little or no NPC spawn, just opportunities to ambush or be ambushed. Bonus dough for the ambushers for blowing up the escort ship.

But no matter what, forced faction in all of space is not the answer. And no matter what, I won't bother with Deep Space til' 3 hit kills are a thing of the past, but that's a whole new thread.

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I've gone AFK to smoke a cigaretteduring a duty mission with the last NPC disabled and my ship at a dead stop only to find the NPC had self-destructed, 5 new NPCs had spawned and the most they had done during my absence is strip the rear shields and take my rear MKII armor plate to 50%. I've gone AFK with up to6 NPCs spawned and had my ship set tocircle (move the mouse to the upper/lower left/right) for up to 10 minutes and have come back to find my ship's shields barely damaged (and that's not using a recursive macro to activate CtSS or Front/Back Emergency Shields). That's in an X-Wing with a Mk IV shield generator. Space is 100% Riskless Reward. Saying differently is saying you lack the abilites of an unattended fighter set to circle at 80% throttle.

People don't PvP because SOE constantly provides them an 'out'. The ability to gain everything in the game while facing opponents that are scripted, unchanging and eventually nothing more than farming material. A player is the most challenging opponent another player can face because nothing is scripted. Nothing is set in stone, unable to change. Setting specific conditions to be met in order to achieve something may be interpretted as "forcing" you to do something. Just as easily as I can interpret the demands people made that causing Kessel to be changes as demanding to be given the Master title. Interpret thing how you want. But to me, fundamentally you can never be "forced" to do anything by anyone but yourself. Nobody can force you to attain the rank of master.

Oh, btw. Eve Online "forces" you to PvP if you fly outside the secured areas of space. Because outside those areas, you can be attacked and your attacker has no fear of reprisal from NPC 'police'. While they have a ton of issues balancing PvP, it's interesting to note that nobody has yet to challenge their claims of setting a record for the most concurrent users in a single 'galaxy'. So please, stop with the scare tactics. PvP doesn't kill a game. Poor implementation of it does. The other interesting thing about Eve Online is the amount of attention the playerbase gives the wars that break out between guilds there. And the amounts of content the playerbase has created for themselves through PvP interaction.

"If SOE put a Nebulon-B Frigate in the game that required the player to be Overt to pilot, you'd call it being forced to PvP when in reality nobody is forcing you but yourself. You wouldn't have to fly that frigate. Nobody would be holding a blaster to your head making you visit a faction station and declaring."

Irrelevant. No one forces you to do ANYTHING, ever. As you can never be forced to do anything, arguing that you are not forced to do something, is a moot point. The main problem with giving things to PvP players that PvE players cant get through an alternate reasonable method is you "strongly encourage" (in place of the word force) people to do something they dont want to do, and when you do that, all you get is a bunch of massive complaints.

SWG is not a hardcore PvP game. Live with it. If you want a hardcore PvP game, go play one.

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Marzuk147 wrote:
"If SOE put a Nebulon-B Frigate in the game that required the player to be Overt to pilot, you'd call it being forced to PvP when in reality nobody is forcing you but yourself. You wouldn't have to fly that frigate. Nobody would be holding a blaster to your head making you visit a faction station and declaring."

Irrelevant. No one forces you to do ANYTHING, ever. As you can never be forced to do anything, arguing that you are not forced to do something, is a moot point. The main problem with giving things to PvP players that PvE players cant get through an alternate reasonable method is you "strongly encourage" (in place of the word force) people to do something they dont want to do, and when you do that, all you get is a bunch of massive complaints.

SWG is not a hardcore PvP game. Live with it. If you want a hardcore PvP game, go play one.

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Why? Why should there be an alternate means for a PvE player to get something? It's easily one of the reasons why the GCW is so pooched: SOE can't reward the people who participate in the GCW without the PvE players complaining they're being left out or "forced to PvP". Guess what? The people that choose not to participate in PvP should be left out of some rewards. They accept less potential risk. They should potentially receive less reward.

"Strongly encourage"? You're still talking nonsense. Nobody would be "strongly encouraging" you to participate. What the real problem is your egowouldn't be able to accept the fact that there's something that you could not achieve because you choose to refuse to meet the conditions that apply

Look, if you want to be dense, you can think that people wouldnt be "strongly encouraged" all you want. Its a fact, irrefuteable. If you offer enough, EVERYONE in the game would eventually PvP. Not because they wanted to PvP, but because they felt they had to, because whatever reward was offered was just too good to pass up.

Argue semantics all you want, you KNOW it to be true. You want incentives because you KNOW it will drag more and more people into PvP.

Let me ask you this: where are all the people that enjoy PvP, and why are they not PvPing? Answer that question and you have your step #1.

Call it whatever you want, if the majority of players are carebears, then guess what you cater to carebears.


"What? Did you think PvPers actually are stereotypical brainless neanderthals who can't recognize an asinine situation? So sorry to disappoint."

Its not an asinine situation IMO. They should make PvP fun, I have no problem with that. Fun however is not the same thing as rewarding, Im sure you understand the distinction. I could pay you a million dollars to let me hit you in the hand with a tack hammer, and Im sure you wouldnt call it fun. You would still let me do it though.

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Marzuk147 wrote:
Call it whatever you want, if the majority of players are carebears, then guess what you cater to carebears.


"What? Did you think PvPers actually are stereotypical brainless neanderthals who can't recognize an asinine situation? So sorry to disappoint."

Its not an asinine situation IMO. They should make PvP fun, I have no problem with that. Fun however is not the same thing as rewarding, Im sure you understand the distinction. I could pay you a million dollars to let me hit you in the hand with a tack hammer, and Im sure you wouldnt call it fun. You would still let me do it though.

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It's not an asinine situation?So because people might like PvP, or in my particular case aren't bothered by PvP, they don't have to be rewarded? That's moronic. And suggesting such is one of the few things that would make me call someone a Carebear.

I'd call them a Carebear because they'll spend pages of forum threads screaming that everything they do should be fun AND rewarding. But when it comes to something that they don't want to do, that others might, being fun is sufficient. And will scream for another 20+ pages if it becomes rewarding in the least. Basically "I don't want to do it, so SCREW YOU!"?

So shall I start calling you a Carebear because you seem to be perfectly willing to deny people reward because you don't like what they do?

"I'd call them a Carebear because they'll spend pages of forum threads screaming that everything they do should be fun AND rewarding. But when it comes to something that they don't want to do, that others might, being fun is sufficient."

This is a mostly PvE game, with mostly PvE players, in an industry dominated by PvE games at this point, in North America. This entire game is based on PvE, which like many other MMORPGs, is one of the major differences between this game, and an FPS. I am not aware of an MMORPG yet that doesnt have some sort of creature bashing as the main PvE content, so its difficult to try to downplay the importance of PvE in these games.

You dont run a business by catering to the minority while pissing your majority off - that would be truely idiotic.

At any rate, PvE has no reward at this time, other than what is needed to make the economy and the game work for the most part. Without experiance from creatures, and money from missions, the game as it is now, would not work because those 2 things are the foundation of the game and of most MMORPGs. I suppose that you could say that you could get that legendary weapon as a reward for PvE, but that only applies to a very very very small portion of the playerbase. If you get one, you should also buy a lottery ticket.

If similar non exclusive ways of earning money were added to PvP in a fashion that they could not be exploited, fine. Just not things that you could only earn by PvP. Finding a way to reward PvP without having it exploited all to hell you will find is a huge roadblock especially in this game where you can communicate with everyone. Chances are good that whatever you add, will be exploited all to hell.

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Marzuk147 wrote:
"I'd call them a Carebear because they'll spend pages of forum threads screaming that everything they do should be fun AND rewarding. But when it comes to something that they don't want to do, that others might, being fun is sufficient."

This is a mostly PvE game, with mostly PvE players, in an industry dominated by PvE games at this point, in North America. This entire game is based on PvE, which like many other MMORPGs, is one of the major differences between this game, and an FPS. I am not aware of an MMORPG yet that doesnt have some sort of creature bashing as the main PvE content, so its difficult to try to downplay the importance of PvE in these games.

You dont run a business by catering to the minority while pissing your majority off - that would be truely idiotic.

At any rate, PvE has no reward at this time, other than what is needed to make the economy and the game work for the most part. Without experiance from creatures, and money from missions, the game as it is now, would not work because those 2 things are the foundation of the game and of most MMORPGs. I suppose that you could say that you could get that legendary weapon as a reward for PvE, but that only applies to a very very very small portion of the playerbase. If you get one, you should also buy a lottery ticket.

If similar non exclusive ways of earning money were added to PvP in a fashion that they could not be exploited, fine. Just not things that you could only earn by PvP. Finding a way to reward PvP without having it exploited all to hell you will find is a huge roadblock especially in this game where you can communicate with everyone. Chances are good that whatever you add, will be exploited all to hell.

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Now you're making excuses to cover something blatantly wrong. Because you don't like to do something or because you don't want to do something, it's fine to deny others any reward for doing what you don't want or like to do. If you don't want to do something, fine. Don't do it. But you don't have any justification to deny reward to those who might enjoy PvP. Or those that aren't bothered by PvP. Your squeamishness at shedding pixelated blood isn't a valid justification for others going without compensation for their activities. "But they're having fun"? Fine, how about they remove the XP and cash from PvE. You're having fun aren't you? That should be reward enough shouldn't it?

And that's what needs to be corrected here. SOE does need to stop catering to you because you represent fundamentally wrong thinking. That you deserve something that you didn't earn. The majority of the people on the planet would gladly accept anything given to them for free. It doesn't mean it's right to cater to their every desire. And most rational, mature people on the planet have no problems accepting that they may have to meet condition in order to receive certain things. Most have no problem accepting that refusing to meet the conditions that may apply will disqualify them for receiving things. So it's not a "pissing your majority off" issue. The real majority is mature enough to accept the consequences of their choices.

Carebear. Fur covered woodlands creature with some sappydepiction on your belly. That's the issue here. People that think they're entitled to everything despite refusing to earn it.

"SOE does need to stop catering to you because you represent fundamentally wrong thinking."

Dont know how much dumber you can get. I represent the MAJORITY. I represent the basic playerbase of ALL MMORPGs in North America.



"Most have no problem accepting that refusing to meet the conditions that may apply will disqualify them for receiving things."

I accept that I am going to buy a PvE based game with a focus on PvE, and that devs will cater to PvE players, unless its part of the niche market of PvP. Apparently you dont, stating that you really dont care about PvP then argueing so passionately for it.



" The real majority is mature enough to accept the consequences of their choices."

Then why is the population incredibly low in every PvP server / game that I know of, compared to the biggest games. This is why PvP is an afterthought in most games.



Just repeat after me: This is not a hardcore PvP game!

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Marzuk147 wrote:
"SOE does need to stop catering to you because you represent fundamentally wrong thinking."

Dont know how much dumber you can get. I represent the MAJORITY. I represent the basic playerbase of ALL MMORPGs in North America.



"Most have no problem accepting that refusing to meet the conditions that may apply will disqualify them for receiving things."

I accept that I am going to buy a PvE based game with a focus on PvE, and that devs will cater to PvE players, unless its part of the niche market of PvP. Apparently you dont, stating that you really dont care about PvP then argueing so passionately for it.



" The real majority is mature enough to accept the consequences of their choices."

Then why is the population incredibly low in every PvP server / game that I know of, compared to the biggest games. This is why PvP is an afterthought in most games.



Just repeat after me: This is not a hardcore PvP game!

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No you don't represent the majority. You don't represent the basic playerbase of ALL MMORPGs in North America. The majority and the basic playerbase has the maturity to accept that there are things they cannot have if they are unwilling to meet the conditions to receive the.

And that's all ths is about:the conditionsfor achieving a certain status or receiving certification to use certain equipment. Incentive for participating in PvP or for making oneself vulnerable to attack from another player. You would be unwilling to meet the conditions to qualify for the incentive. You are unwilling to PvP. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. What is wrong is because you're unwilling to meet any conditions that potentially involve PvP in order to qualify for an incentive, you feel justified in ensuring that those incentives never exist. That is you. An immature Carebear that would be unwilling to accept that you could not have a ship if it requiredyou to be overt to fly it. An immature Carebear unwilling to accept there could be a title you could not attain because you CHOSE to refuse to meet the conditions to achieve it.

The majority and the basic playerbase of ALL MMORPGs in North Americaaren't composed of immature little brats who can't take "No" for an answer. Do not sit there and attempt to insult so many people by accusing them of such rank immaturity.

Message Edited by Rhysen on 12-29-2004 12:02 PM

I can assure you because of people like you, my next game will be a PvE ONLY game. Im tired of hearing this kind of crap honestly, and its just total crap. Done arguing this stupidity with such a moron, only to have constant insults flung at me about my lack of maturity for not enjoying the same kind of game that you enjoy.

I guess its wrong for me to expect a game company to cater to their majority. What can I say. I will not try to play a game where PvP and PvE coexist, because people like you, will always seek to make people like me participate in PvP simply because you dont have enough people who want to PvP to amuse you.

At any rate, Im sure you can find a PvP game that suits your needs. Oh wait, they are not popular enough to even mention, wonder why that is!

Go play shadowbane IMO.

Message Edited by Marzuk147 on 12-29-2004 01:31 PM