Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL after Ace = Quenkers in space
Nicolas_Frost wrote:I'd prefer NPCs and players to deal less damage, but the AI be better or worse through the Tiers, instead of NPCs doing one of three things, flying in a cirlce, flying in a straight line away from you, or flying in a straight line at you. I mean, as long as my ship is manuverable and close to the same speed as these NPCs, I can follow them very easily. One-on-One fights are really no challenge.
problem is, i wouldnt even know any offline games where the ai did more than either strictly following their programmed pattern, going straight at you or trying to get away far enough to turn around. add to this that the servers have to do all of that i wouldnt expect awesome space combat ai in a mmo game. i had 500 ships flying around with plenty of geometry, graphics didnt kill it, but the completely simple ai that did nothing but turn a ship towards its target.
adding zeroes isnt bad, as long as everything else will scale by the same amount. in this case i would say npcs over all tiers take too much damage, while their weapons are suspicously weak. just increasing all armor or reducing all weapon damage instead of doing half a dozen different things (low npc damage, high npc shield, silly pvp damage factor) would have looked like a cleaner solution. or at least follow up on the pvp factor, find the right amount of damage and then use that damage for everything while lowering npc shield/armor by the same factor. but right now i feel like their 25% pvp dam reduction is already considered the final solution.
vnicula wrote:Next step:Convert prestige points to FS at 30:1 rate. Paemos is waiting.Slarus, where are you? Any freaking carebear?Message Edited by vnicula on 11-18-2004 12:51 PM
Make it 1500:1 and it'll be fair. Prestige points are too easy for 30:1 ratio...
Trienco wrote:
Drave wrote:
You forgot one thing, until JTL gets at least a 50% damage reduction for pvp, it isnt worth it when you can be blown up in 3 shots.
even better: reduce ALL weapon damage to sensible values, get a clue and stop npcs from being cheaters from hell that take 20 times more damage than a player ship. whats the point of that anyway? first npcs get ridiculously tough shields and armor to make them more challenging (i guess), then players get overpowered weapons (because else they couldnt shoot down any npcs), then pvp damage is reduced (because player weapons do far too much damage). seriously, has homer simpson found a job as game designer and is doing the balancing?
the moment they realized damage is too high and you die too fast in pvp it should have been a wakeup call, but i guess somebody prefered to be lazy and instead of reducing shield/armour of npcs and weapon damage by x% it was quicker to just hack away and reduce pvp damage.
no surprise deep space is completely empty (havent seen anyone here all day), who cares about being blown apart by an unnoticed player that got off 2 or 3 lucky shots? right now you can either shoot fish in a barrel (npcs) or just not go there at all.
Deep space is empty because there is zero reason to go there. Everything you can get in Deep Space you can get anywhere else ingame, except ISD bragging rights.
Lvl 10 components? Ignoring the fact that lvl 10 components are really only desirable on limited use ships (MP, Master Bombers-class ships), these parts drop in Kessel and everywhere else. I've gotten them on duty missions in Dantooine.
Cash? Duty missions aren't in Deep Space..
Prestige XP? The 2.64m Prestige XP I've collected since Saturday didn't come from my only trip into Deep Space.
So given that man by nature will generally choose the path of least resistance, what reason is there for people to populate Deep Space? None. If SOE wants to populate Deep Space they'll have to:
- Remove the option for Master level pilots to do Tier 4 Duty missions in 'safe space'. Duty missions for Master pilots would be to Deep Space.
- Remove lvl 7+ components from the loot tables of NPCs outside Deep Space. Cert Level 7+ Components dropping only from Deep Space NPCs.
- Remove credit loot from NPC <= Tier 4 for Master Pilots. People would farm a Tier 1 spawn for credits if given the chance (see Valarian Swoopers/Jabba's Thieves for existing examples).
- Ignore people who would call this "Forcing them to PvP". They'd always have the OPTION to buy lvl 7+ components from people that do go to Deep Space.
Message Edited by Rhysen on 12-27-2004 01:00 PM
but i agree that ds needs more motivation, right now its basically just a really great exploit to avoid component decay (if there is no decay its even the perfect place for all those lvl 4 overcharge commands). i like the concept of battlefields, but unless fighting/winning in a battlefield has any meaningful ingame consequences i wouldnt know what they are good for. the cash isnt worth the trouble, the loot isnt any better or more likely, plus if deep space WAS filled with players many of them would soon go because dying before you know whats happening isnt great either. maybe that whole gcw stuff will result in something new and interesting of which deep space is only a first and incomplete glimpse (its either that or pretty embarassing).
and could we just reduce all weapon damage to say 10%, as well as npc shields and armor. might even find out that they are suddenly not worlds apart from player ships anymore.
"I've got nothing against PvP gaming, I just don't want it forced upon me when I'm trying to do something else."
The Anti-PvPers will continue to vehemently attack and denounce anyone supporting PvP. Then complain viciously when all SOE can deliver is something that remains new for 1 or 2 encounters, becoming grinding material thereafter. The irony is amazing.
That's not irony. Even if I were a hardcore PvP'er I'd still call this idea bogus. Folks just want other options than turreting NPC's or getting PvP ganked. And they believe that removing an option(being covert) is not the same as having another option. Imagine that. I think some content, such as a true raid on a faction base(not that silly Deep Space reb base), possibly even involving some "ground" work isn't too much to ask for in the future. Some stuff on a grander scale.
Of course folks who hook up Unreal and fight each other online don't complain about PvP. Because that's precisely why they're playing the game. Same with the new Battlefront game. They join a server to blow people up. It's good fun. If I or anybody else wanted to be "forced faction", we'd play XvT, Allianceor Battlefront and have a good ol' time. Everybody gets on ready to scrap.
But nope, this is galaxies... people can do other stuff here. And they don't really care to be ganked in the back of the head while they're maintaining their harvestor or while doing a mission in space. And if you make it so, they will leave. How hard is that to understand?
As it's already been well put, when people CHOOSE to be covert, that means they have CHOSEN not to PvP. That's a choice. The simple fact is, you remove the option of being covert on the ground, in space, anywhere, those who CHOSE not to be PvP will then CHOOSE not to be factioned, or will leave the game. Which means less peopleto PvP, and not only that, many penny pinching PvP people will just leave and play Alliance or Battlegrounds with no monthly charge. Goodbye, Galaxies.
Put simply, your suggestion is not PRO-PvP, it's ANTI-nonPvP. Removing one option will not strengthen another in this case.In a cyberworld of which people pay monthly to enter, it's a REAL bad idea to eliminate choices.
The real solution is to offer incentive to PvP. Possibly a badge, or better yet, some textures with nixed reb/imp insignia's. Right now, there's nothing.
And as for the "Carebear" theme, it originated as a Conservative derogatory termfor Liberals. It makes as little sense here as it does in the political arena, so how about replacing it with a point rather than callingpeople names?
DosWindo wrote:
The Anti-PvPers will continue to vehemently attack and denounce anyone supporting PvP. Then complain viciously when all SOE can deliver is something that remains new for 1 or 2 encounters, becoming grinding material thereafter. The irony is amazing.
That's not irony. Even if I were a hardcore PvP'er I'd still call this idea bogus. Folks just want other options than turreting NPC's or getting PvP ganked. And they believe that removing an option(being covert) is not the same as having another option. Imagine that. I think some content, such as a true raid on a faction base(not that silly Deep Space reb base), possibly even involving some "ground" work isn't too much to ask for in the future. Some stuff on a grander scale.
Of course folks who hook up Unreal and fight each other online don't complain about PvP. Because that's precisely why they're playing the game. Same with the new Battlefront game. They join a server to blow people up. It's good fun. If I or anybody else wanted to be "forced faction", we'd play XvT, Allianceor Battlefront and have a good ol' time. Everybody gets on ready to scrap.
But nope, this is galaxies... people can do other stuff here. And they don't really care to be ganked in the back of the head while they're maintaining their harvestor or while doing a mission in space. And if you make it so, they will leave. How hard is that to understand?
As it's already been well put, when people CHOOSE to be covert, that means they have CHOSEN not to PvP. That's a choice. The simple fact is, you remove the option of being covert on the ground, in space, anywhere, those who CHOSE not to be PvP will then CHOOSE not to be factioned, or will leave the game. Which means less peopleto PvP, and not only that, many penny pinching PvP people will just leave and play Alliance or Battlegrounds with no monthly charge. Goodbye, Galaxies.
Put simply, your suggestion is not PRO-PvP, it's ANTI-nonPvP. Removing one option will not strengthen another in this case.In a cyberworld of which people pay monthly to enter, it's a REAL bad idea to eliminate choices.
The real solution is to offer incentive to PvP. Possibly a badge, or better yet, some textures with nixed reb/imp insignia's. Right now, there's nothing.
And as for the "Carebear" theme, it originated as a Conservative derogatory termfor Liberals. It makes as little sense here as it does in the political arena, so how about replacing it with a point rather than callingpeople names?
vnicula wrote:
Next step:
Convert prestige points to FS at 30:1 rate. Paemos is waiting.
Slarus, where are you? Any freaking carebear?
Message Edited by vnicula on 11-18-2004 12:51 PM
I can't see it being exchanged at tha rate. Its too easy to gain. If they did, a good balance would be somewhere in between weaponxp and squadleader xp.
AspiringBountyHunter wrote:
vnicula wrote:Next step:Convert prestige points to FS at 30:1 rate. Paemos is waiting.Slarus, where are you? Any freaking carebear?Message Edited by vnicula on 11-18-2004 12:51 PM
I can't see it being exchanged at tha rate. Its too easy to gain. If they did, a good balance would be somewhere in between weapon xp and squadleader xp.
Uhm, weapon experience to Force Sensitive experience is a 30:1 ratio, last time I checked.
I agree with the previous poster who said the rate should be around 1500:1, that's if they do that at all, I don't think they should. Its just way too easy to gain Prestige.
Riskless Reward? what do you call grinding a ground game combat profession on quenkers w/buffs and 90% composite? The ground game is the same, i make my own content or find somebody who's putting on somekind of event. I PvP on occasion, i actually have fun, lol. Bu i wouldn't want to do it 100% of the time. I've been ganked at the bazaar before, that's no fun, going w/grp against an equally pwrful grp is the way i prefer. FORCED pvp is the issue here, if ya don't see many ppl overt that does say something about the waypplview it. The only time ya see ppl overt is when they're buffed and armored, to implement forced pvp in the current enviroment would be insane, that's not the point of this game imo. The point is to have fun. Space for me is fun. Even w/o additional content atm, i think of jtl as a flight sim where i can go and fly and shoot stuff. I think of the ground game as well...i can do anything i feel like,i can go and shootoff fireworks for giggles if i feel like it, long as it's fun for me atm.Ifyou want a game that's all pvp, there's games out there, everyone in them consented to it by playing that game. If ya want a game where ya can fight when ya feel like it (and the other player feels like a fight too) stick w/SWG.
Rhysen wrote:
DosWindo wrote:
The Anti-PvPers will continue to vehemently attack and denounce anyone supporting PvP. Then complain viciously when all SOE can deliver is something that remains new for 1 or 2 encounters, becoming grinding material thereafter. The irony is amazing.
That's not irony. Even if I were a hardcore PvP'er I'd still call this idea bogus. Folks just want other options than turreting NPC's or getting PvP ganked. And they believe that removing an option(being covert) is not the same as having another option. Imagine that. I think some content, such as a true raid on a faction base(not that silly Deep Space reb base), possibly even involving some "ground" work isn't too much to ask for in the future. Some stuff on a grander scale.
Of course folks who hook up Unreal and fight each other online don't complain about PvP. Because that's precisely why they're playing the game. Same with the new Battlefront game. They join a server to blow people up. It's good fun. If I or anybody else wanted to be "forced faction", we'd play XvT, Allianceor Battlefront and have a good ol' time. Everybody gets on ready to scrap.
But nope, this is galaxies... people can do other stuff here. And they don't really care to be ganked in the back of the head while they're maintaining their harvestor or while doing a mission in space. And if you make it so, they will leave. How hard is that to understand?
As it's already been well put, when people CHOOSE to be covert, that means they have CHOSEN not to PvP. That's a choice. The simple fact is, you remove the option of being covert on the ground, in space, anywhere, those who CHOSE not to be PvP will then CHOOSE not to be factioned, or will leave the game. Which means less peopleto PvP, and not only that, many penny pinching PvP people will just leave and play Alliance or Battlegrounds with no monthly charge. Goodbye, Galaxies.
Put simply, your suggestion is not PRO-PvP, it's ANTI-nonPvP. Removing one option will not strengthen another in this case.In a cyberworld of which people pay monthly to enter, it's a REAL bad idea to eliminate choices.
The real solution is to offer incentive to PvP. Possibly a badge, or better yet, some textures with nixed reb/imp insignia's. Right now, there's nothing.
And as for the "Carebear" theme, it originated as a Conservative derogatory termfor Liberals. It makes as little sense here as it does in the political arena, so how about replacing it with a point rather than callingpeople names?
One of the reasons why I actually support this is because right now space is nothing but Riskless Reward for Master Pilots. Credits and components earned in utter safety because the NPCs that have the credits/components pose no threat to the pilot. Riskless Reward is usually the cause of a bad nerf down the line. The most recent evidence of this is the solo mission payout nerf. A nerf which also rendered it pointless to group for anything but XP to farm for FS conversion. Really good job there, taking out all motivation for players to group in a Massively Multiplayer Online Game.
Space needs Risk. Without Risk, it isn't a game. It's nothing but a time-sink. And honestly the only real source of Risk in the game, especially for Master level pilots, is another player. To keep JTL a game it would be wholly appropriate to require people to face the risk of other players for the top level components. For the right to fly the biggest ships. Ethical stances, philosophical viewpoints and plain ole "But I don't wanna!" aren't applicable. The NPCs cannot provide the risk that merit the rewards in space and as such will always make space vulnerable to nerfs. You'd have your option: Don't strive for the rank of Master.
And yes, it is irony. SOE can only provide new text scripts as activities. SOE can only provide nNew objects with a different twist on how to destroy them. But they can't make them unique. They can create a Death Star object in space and point people at it with a banner headline reading "New Content: Destroy the Death Star". But once destroyed the "New" description is no longer applicable. It becomes a source of either grinding or farming. Each PvP encounter is potentially unique. In most cases it is unique, even when facing an individual you have faced before. Because most times they try something different, especially if they lost the previous time. Yet, PvP is denounced. Mostly for moral and philosophical reasons. One of the few sources of ever changing content is refused while people beg for more of the same. Yes, that is irony.
Pelf wrote:
Riskless Reward? what do you call grinding a ground game combat profession on quenkers w/buffs and 90% composite? The ground game is the same, i make my own content or find somebody who's putting on somekind of event. I PvP on occasion, i actually have fun, lol. Bu i wouldn't want to do it 100% of the time. I've been ganked at the bazaar before, that's no fun, going w/grp against an equally pwrful grp is the way i prefer. FORCED pvp is the issue here, if ya don't see many ppl overt that does say something about the waypplview it. The only time ya see ppl overt is when they're buffed and armored, to implement forced pvp in the current enviroment would be insane, that's not the point of this game imo. The point is to have fun. Space for me is fun. Even w/o additional content atm, i think of jtl as a flight sim where i can go and fly and shoot stuff. I think of the ground game as well...i can do anything i feel like,i can go and shootoff fireworks for giggles if i feel like it, long as it's fun for me atm.Ifyou want a game that's all pvp, there's games out there, everyone in them consented to it by playing that game. If ya want a game where ya can fight when ya feel like it (and the other player feels like a fight too) stick w/SWG.
Rhysen wrote:
I call it the same thing. I call it the reason the mission payouts got nerfed, removing a significant portion of the motivation to actually do a mission as a group (it's more effective to do a true solo mission than group now). I call it the reason SOE is doing an entire revamp of the ground combat system in order to repair.
You call it being forced. I call what you're doing demanding to have access to everything under conditions you specify. If SOE put aNebulon-B Frigatein the game that required the player to be Overt to pilot, you'd call it being forced to PvP when in reality nobody is forcing you but yourself. You wouldn't have to fly that frigate. Nobody would be holding a blaster to your head making you visit a faction station and declaring. Nothing but your wounded ego and wounded pride at being refused access because you, yourself, refused to meet the conditions to qualify.
I'm an ace pilot and I still spend 99% of my time in an X-Wing in space. The 1% being when I take up my Nova Courier to craft things as that's where my workshop is. Fitting level 9/10 components isn't feasible on most of the starships I use on a regular basis, the exception being the Y-Wing if I chose to fly it over the B-Wing. So in terms of functionality, a player refusing to reach Master pilot would be missing out on very little actual functionality. That makes the real issue here Ego. People's ego could notaccept the consequences of their own refusal to meet the conditions for Master, if it were applied. Ego is not an issue the developers should be attempting to resolve nor be concerned with. People complain about being 'forced' to group. About being 'forced' to find a representative of a specific profession for an item they need. But sometimes for the health of the game conditions have to be set that must be met in order to achieve something. Issues of Ego is not a priority for resolution as the developers can only code so many ways to pat people on the back. And honestly if it Master pilot was made overt I'd tell those that complained about being 'forced' to PvP:
You have 4 Tiers of ships, components and abilities that are likely to see more general use than anything in the Master box.
How can you call asolo group "doing a mission in a group"? Your in a group, sure, but your still not doing anything with the members of that group. You may as well be alone.
As far as this whole master always overt thing goes, its a bad idea. Think about it..... you can say that you can just not go master, sure. But then what are you doing? Blocking content to certain people just because they don't want to be constantly 3-shotted by people while they do missions or just blow up ships. It would be like the devs adding a new space dungeon and saying "Anyone who PvP's is not allowed to enter just because they PvP."
And think about the ships granted at master. Particularly the B-Wing and the multiplayer ships. Master only ships, so by this you'd have to be overt. Who in thier right mind is going to use a B-Wing if they have to be overt while doing it? The B-Wing has little to no worth at all in PvP, it would just be an invitation to die. And the multiplayer ships? Same thing but even worse. Lets see, go up into space overt, almost certain to die and get eternal flames of despair on your ship, have to redeed it to fix it so that we can go back up and have it happen all over again? No, I don't think so. And even once that bug is fixed, a MP ship is only the size of a barn with less firepower than some fighter ships and a heck of alot less manueverability.
PvP has been and always will be a choice. Some people, myself included, want to play a game like Star Wars Galaxies to play with other people, not against them. I don't care to fight other people because 1, I don't get any pleasure out of making others suffer, and 2, I'm playing to make friends, not enemies. There are dozens upon dozens of games out there thatcenter around people killing one another, go pick them up if you want that sort of thing. Heck, get Star Wars Battlefront. Much better ground PvP to be had when you actually have to aim and shoot rather than just spamming Dizzy+KD attacks.
Face it, life involves risk, people aren't playing this game to have more risk. A game is meant to provide people with fun, not fear.