Pilot Archive
Thread: Suggestion: Independent Turrets?
Rowgue
Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:18 am
#53
Ok so let me get this straight. The main argument against having independent turrets is basically that they are supposed to be defensive weapons and not offensive weapons. Ok I follow you there, but I've got a very simple question that requires a very simple answer. Did the moron that designed my ship really think that if the situation arises that I have to use my "Defensive Weapons" that I should just have to fly in a straight line and let the attackers shoot my arse off. If these turrets are supposed to be for defense wouldn't the guy that installed them think that maybe you might want to do some defensive maneuvers with the ship while your "defending" yourself.
Not everyone has teamspeak, it is impossible to communicate what you want the pilot to do without it, not to mention the guy in the other turret may want him to do the exact opposite. Sure the pilot can just fly full speed in straight lines and do jousting runs, but that is not realistic in the least. The defensive weapons on these ships would be designed to kill the speedy fighters as they zoomed around the hull.
And for the this would take the skill out of gunning argument. Ok I'll tell you about my first experience in a turret. I had been piloting for about a week and was still leveling up the tree. I had built some good skills as a pilot and had no trouble doing my own missions and killing pretty much anything I ran into. Someone was looking for gunners and I had never been in a MP ship before, so I say hey why not. We get up there he runs through everyones jobs and we take off for Dathomir. We get there and come in contact with the enemy ships. I'm itchy on the trigger finger cause I can't wait to see what this babies got. I've got my target locked under my cursor waiting for him to come into range and I'm about to mash the trigger. Out of nowhere a bogey jumps us from behind and the pilot makes a slight adjustment. My friggen cursor flies off of the target and there's absolutely no way I can possibly keep him under my cursor while the ship is turning or banking no matter how slight the movement. Now I know your just going to say I am a bad gunner, or that the pilot shouldn't be moving, but come on. The fact of the matter is that targetting something from within a turret should not be twice as hard as targeting something in a regular ship.
Oh and by the way you need to watch the movies over. The MF clearly has independant turrets.
Thatguyfubu
Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:31 am
#54
I personally think that they should leave it the way it is. At the same time I not complain if they do change it 
. Now I have never taken my YT-1300 out for PvP or even in to Kessel. However with a few good gunners and a really good co-pilot I have never had any problems. The only time I really had to do evasive manuvers is when I got swarmed by a couple of aggressors, decimator, and a bunch of TIEs all teir 4. Even still I just hit IFF, full throttle, and boosters. Ran around ship and repaired and headed back in and took everything out. I keep it steady straight and SLOW. I put my faith in my crew to keep us alive. A set of blaster with 4K damage and Weapon Overload 3 and they are killing pretty fast. My co-pilot watches the shields and uses cap to shield shunt when needed. We also help point out where the targets are as well as which ones are the biggest threats. And yes we have done this without TS. I run a cap that is over 1K charge and a 44.5 recharge. Put cap overload 3 and let them go to town.
. Now I have never taken my YT-1300 out for PvP or even in to Kessel. However with a few good gunners and a really good co-pilot I have never had any problems. The only time I really had to do evasive manuvers is when I got swarmed by a couple of aggressors, decimator, and a bunch of TIEs all teir 4. Even still I just hit IFF, full throttle, and boosters. Ran around ship and repaired and headed back in and took everything out. I keep it steady straight and SLOW. I put my faith in my crew to keep us alive. A set of blaster with 4K damage and Weapon Overload 3 and they are killing pretty fast. My co-pilot watches the shields and uses cap to shield shunt when needed. We also help point out where the targets are as well as which ones are the biggest threats. And yes we have done this without TS. I run a cap that is over 1K charge and a 44.5 recharge. Put cap overload 3 and let them go to town. Flying in the MP takes lots of practice by all parties. You need to have a pilot understand that they have to keep slow and steady, heck there are plenty of time I come to a complete stop and watch my gunners take everything done in a matter of seconds. You need to have a really good co-pilot that understands your programs and knows when to use them. Remember they are in charge of that shield. If you have a good droid interface shield shunt works wonders and it also keeps the co-pilot busy. Also be aware of everything that is going on. I cycle through the different targets to find the biggest treats. Target them and let the gunners know where they are. Trust me they will like to know where certain ones are when it starts to really get crazy out there.
If you are going after particular targets just remember on your approach try to get the target so that both gunners can hit it. There is a small over lap but it is there. We are able to take out teir 4 decimators on the approach path.
What I find that is good gunner practice is; get a duty destroy mission of either level 2 or 3. Go to the WP and come to complete stop. These level ships can hurt you at all. Let your gunners get some good practice in. Once you hit the later waves when they are coming at you 10-12 at a time they will be having a blast and learning how to pick up targets fasters. After you do this and can finish the complete duty in about 20 mintues move up to teir 4 and do the same. I also find my crew loves when we go overt first so they can rack in some FP while we do this.
There have been times when I have just gone up there just me and one other person. We have gotten pretty good at the turrets now that I just leave my ship stopped with just the two of us in the gunner postitions taking down swarms of TIEs. If things look like they are getting out of control I jump back to the pilot spot and he jumps in to co-pilot. He runs the shield programs and other defensive programs while I do the evasive maneuvers to keep us alive. Once we get some place safe we repair the ship and go through the loot box. It is a lot of fun and I absolutly love my YT-1300.
Now I know I have gone way off subject but my point is- it just takes lots and lots of practice for everybody not just the gunners. If they changed the way the turrets worked it would be alot different. Everybody would try to fly their MP ships as fighters. Yes this would be fun but just not the same.
-Zaran
DosWindo
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:37 am
#55
Independant Turrets would go a very long way to making Multipassenger ships twice as effective as they currently are and help deal out twice as much damage as they currently do by allowing the gunners to hit their targets even while on the move.
You know what else would make themmore effective? The ability to outmaneuver a fighter, and to be able to mount a big battering ram on the front. Unfortunately it makes about as much sense as independant turrets.
What REALLY makes them more effective is having gunners that learn how to fire with a turret. I got far better with a couple hours practice, and if I did it regularly, I'd probably make a turretmore effectivethan a forward gun.
You don't fix a blown engine in a car by strapping a supercharger on it. You don't fix a problem(the ability of MP ships to survive a large scale battle) by fixing something that isn't broken. And what's broken is that shields, armor, and hit points on a MP ship are nowhere near appropriate when compared tofighters. Not to mention the massive roach(bug) infestation. This is proven by the NPC ships, whichhave the equivalent of about 50,000 a sideworth of shields and nearly as much armor.
And, as you say, the NPC turrets hit about 90% of the time regardless of your angle to them and the evasive manuevers of your craft. This is an NPC AI issue. The issue being that your craft is no harder to hit by AI while it is evading than when it is standing still. It is NOT an argument for independent turrets. Turrets should be dangerous because they can fire at you from any angle, not because they can hit you almost every time, PC or NPC.
For all you curious Georges, it'sbecause they use the same AI for the turrets as they do the ships. Thing is theydon't have to doany manuevering to get the target in their sights(it's like having a forward gun on a ship with no manueverability limitations), so every shot they take has the same probability to hit as though they are on your 6 and you're flying straight.
Independant turrets is the wrong fix for the wrong problem. I would want the NPC AI fixed; I WOULDN'T want the game fixed so that PC gunners can do the same thing.
DosWindo
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:51 am
#56
Now I know your just going to say I am a bad gunner, or that the pilot shouldn't be moving, but come on. The fact of the matter is that targetting something from within a turret should not be twice as hard as targeting something in a regular ship.
No, I would say that you're a person who's never operated a turret before. And anything you've never done before is going to be harder than something you have. And if you're like many of us, you've been piloting ships on the vid screen since Asteroids came out. But you haven't been operating turrets on a ship that someone else is piloting. Work on a system with your pilot(mine is simple:"as little vertical rolling as possible, pilot!"), and practice.
"I've been up in this ship for 15 minutes and I'm not owning everything. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!!!"
This mentality has gotta stop.
Rowgue
Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:18 pm
#57
Ok I want you to get in a turret and then type out "roll left and follow the agressor" when you are in the heat of battle and trying to track a target with your turret gun. By the time he does what you asked him to the agressor is now on the other side of the ship. It's just not realistically possible without teamspeak unless he does as you are suggesting and just flies straight level and slow. That doesn't sound like a very good idea when you are trying to defend yourself.
You still did not answer why tartgetting something with the turret should be more difficult than targeting something normally. I should be able to do more as a pilot than fly straight level and slow so my gunners have a chance at hitting the broad side of a Firespray. Right now multiplayer ships suck. They are too easy to kill, pack less firepower than a heavy fighter, are way harder than a normal ship to hit anything in, and not to mention they are bugged to no end on top of all of that.
If you think it's just the skills of the pilot and gunners that make the difference then come to Kettemoor server and load up your MP ship with your crew, Ican tell you without a doubtI will blast you out of the sky in my Krayt without even breaking a sweat. That is just not plausible in real life or in a fantasy world.
DosWindo
Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:44 pm
#58
Well, for starters, you don't have to relay a command at the time. You can set up and practice predetermined actions, like which way the pilot will turn to acquire the target. If you know that as the fighter strafes by, that the pilot will cut left to get behind him, you can turn in the same direction, making your turret spin to acquire faster than any fighter can turn to intercept. In terms of multiple bogeys, you can agree beforehand to go after the strongest. And if there are far too many to make those kind of choices, Independant turrets nor anything else is going to help you.
When it comes to the comments about MP ships being weak, you're preaching to the choir. But it's the defenses that are the problem. And of course, the bugs. In even game realism, a MP ship should be able to absorb a moderate bombardment by fighters as it soars off to drop a load of space bombs into a heavy cruiser. The turrets should be a decent defense against that bombardment. With training, they can be, though I agree with many who say the turrets should pack alot more punch. As in more damage, not IT's.
And again, the scenario with your Krayt, Rowgue, isn't really an argument for IT's, it's an argument to fix PvP. In the right context, I'm all for that argument. But not in this one.
AlexKC
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:37 pm
#59
1st_Viduus wrote:
1108 capacity w/ 49.6 recharge hasn't run out yet....
My 55k mass 1255 capacity w/ 49.0 recharge doesn't run out even if i don't overload it. I do overload it though so i can shunt power to shields when needed.
MericCarew
Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:39 am
#60
DosWindo wrote:Well, for starters, you don't have to relay a command at the time. You can set up and practice predetermined actions, like which way the pilot will turn to acquire the target. If you know that as the fighter strafes by, that the pilot will cut left to get behind him, you can turn in the same direction, making your turret spin to acquire faster than any fighter can turn to intercept. In terms of multiple bogeys, you can agree beforehand to go after the strongest. And if there are far too many to make those kind of choices, Independant turrets nor anything else is going to help you.When it comes to the comments about MP ships being weak, you're preaching to the choir. But it's the defenses that are the problem. And of course, the bugs. In even game realism, a MP ship should be able to absorb a moderate bombardment by fighters as it soars off to drop a load of space bombs into a heavy cruiser. The turrets should be a decent defense against that bombardment. With training, they can be, though I agree with many who say the turrets should pack alot more punch. As in more damage, not IT's.And again, the scenario with your Krayt, Rowgue, isn't really an argument for IT's, it's an argument to fix PvP. In the right context, I'm all for that argument. But not in this one.
So your telling me that if Multipassanger ships were given more armor and more shiels they would be viable enough in combat to use. Personally I think you've bumped your head. Sure it may take longer to kill the target but if your gunners still can't hit a fighter while in a turret what good do those extra defense do for you. If it takes me 15 hits to kill you and only 2 for you to kill me I am going to win because of how turrets are designed. Lets not add more fighters into the equation either because then you are in a hopeless position because you can't evade our shots or manage to get one of your own.
Simply saying more defenses is the solution to multipassenger ships problems is ridiculous. You might as well not equip any weapons since all they do is take up space and are ineffective against another smaller then another Multipassenger ship.
So again I will say that the solution for Multipassenger ships is a combination of more defenses and independant turrets. Havin one without the other still make the ships worthless in combat.
DosWindo
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:42 am
#61
WIth practice, you can. You're the one complaining about how you or your gunners can't hit the broad side of a barn, and you're telling me I bumped MY head?
In two hours practice I was able to wipe out tier 5's with a 2.5k turret without too much trouble, and I'm hardly a crackshot. The most difficult thing about them was that they were in and out of range in less than 10 seconds. But I usually got at least one shot in on every pass. It still took a long time, since NPC tier 5's seem to have the equivalent of about 20k shields, which is why I say the MP ships should have stronger blasters than a fighter.
If you can't "get 2 shots in to a fighters 15", then I wouldn't bother lobbying for IT's, cuz they won't help you much. Drop to a dead stop and let your turret guys fire away, and you'll see what I mean. And when you find that it doesn't work, you'll be back in here lobbying for AI turrets, and we'll have the ground game up in space.
...but hey, if you wanna say that I've lost my mind because I can play the game and you can't, then by all means...
1st_Viduus
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:54 am
#62
With good Cert 10's (not even RE'd) you can take out a Tier 5 in 3 hits (npc). RE'd you can do it in one or 2.
Player ships... hehe. One hit and if he's not exploded he's floating dead and needs to eject. In either case, not too difficult, if the gunner has taken the time to learn what he's doing.
MericCarew
Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:50 pm
#63
DosWindo wrote:WIth practice, you can. You're the one complaining about how you or your gunners can't hit the broad side of a barn, and you're telling me I bumped MY head?In two hours practice I was able to wipe out tier 5's with a 2.5k turret without too much trouble, and I'm hardly a crackshot. The most difficult thing about them was that they were in and out of range in less than 10 seconds. But I usually got at least one shot in on every pass. It still took a long time, since NPC tier 5's seem to have the equivalent of about 20k shields, which is why I say the MP ships should have stronger blasters than a fighter.If you can't "get 2 shots in to a fighters 15", then I wouldn't bother lobbying for IT's, cuz they won't help you much. Drop to a dead stop and let your turret guys fire away, and you'll see what I mean. And when you find that it doesn't work, you'll be back in here lobbying for AI turrets, and we'll have the ground game up in space....but hey, if you wanna say that I've lost my mind because I can play the game and you can't, then by all means...
Let me ask you this when you fly a multipassenger ship how do you fly it. Do you stop, do you fly straight and slow, or do you try and avoid atleast some of the shots that fly your way.
I would bet money it's either the first or second option there. Even the best gunners at the moment have a horrible hit rate while sitting in a turret. Anyone can sit stationary or fly straight and slow and abuse tier 5 fighters. That there is the problem with just asking for more defense on Multipassenger ships. I can agree that defense is an issue with the ships but a ship that can move and shoot is twice as effective as a ship with defenses that just sits there or flies from point A to B without moving.
Lets imagine your Mutlipassenger ship has 20k shields and armor. How long do you think it would last in PvP against a fighter with no shields and armor. With the way turrets work now that single fighter would tear you a new one just because you are forced to either sit still so you can MAYBE hit it or evade and not be able to hit it.
I would think you people would like to have ships that are fun to fly. A pilot of a Multipassenger ship has ZERO fun factor. The pilots needs to be able to fly his ship and know that his gunners can aslo do their jobs and everyone on the ship have fun doing it. These "You just need more practice" attitudes are ridiculous.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 01-12-2005 07:52 PM
1st_Viduus
Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:41 pm
#64
Very strange...
Our gunners took out an entire T4DM without a single ship making it past the 2nd pass for practice, and in DS blew a hole so wide in a player A-Wing on the first shot he never even made it within "visible" range (where the crosshairs show up), and had to Eject before the pilot got spun around.
Seems we must just be very very lucky, and practice, skill, communication, and equipment have absolutely nothing to do with it.
_____
P.S.:
Still waiting for this thread to die...
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 01-12-2005 10:42 PM
DosWindo
Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:46 pm
#65
I would think you people would like to have ships that are fun to fly. A pilot of a Multipassenger ship has ZERO fun factor. The pilots needs to be able to fly his ship and know that his gunners can aslo do their jobs and everyone on the ship have fun doing it. These "You just need more practice" attitudes are ridiculous.
Wow, I guess I would call this a diff in fun factor...
Cuz let me tell ya, of ANY experienceI've hadin JTL, I could say my few sessions in an MP ship have been the most fun I've had since I got Galaxies at all... bugs or no bugs.
But to answer your questions,You fly straight and fast as much as possible. The pilots job in an MP ship is to pursue a target and keep it in range. WHEN, notAFTER, the targetturns towardyou, you slow down and turn to intercept when they pass, then speed up again to try to keep it in range. You rely on your copilot to angle the shields and use droid programs and special manuevers effectively. Why not try to evade? The YT1300 of JTL is NOT the Millenium Falcon. It can't roll to avoid blasters like in the movies. It can't come close. It's just too big. So are its' counterparts. That does tend to diminish the role of a pilot in an MP ship compared to a fighter, but it's in the cooperation that makes the MP ship fun.
An MP ship is not a fighter hunter; it's a cruiser killer. But if you're going to use it to kill fighters, the pilots will have to rely on their turret men to do the job. Int my short 7-8 hours of MP ship XP we never got blown up by any number of fighters, but we did get blown up by stepping a little to close to some gunboats. Yeah, those guys with the 90% turret hit rate.
Evasive manuevering? It's like trying to run the Indy 500 in a Coupe DeVille. You can have the baddest engine on the block, you're still gonna get your butt handed to ya. You can't dodge fighters. You're just too big. Han and Lando both did it, but it's not gonna happen in JTL. Believe me, I shared your disillusionment.
But you're really talking about PvP, aren't ya? And let me tell ya, it's not just MP ships that are completely hosed by the current "system".It's a different subject, honestly. The PvP system is a completely different beast, and IMHO, it shouldn't be. An A-wing shouldn't be able to seal the fate of a YT1300 in 2 shots. It's absurd. But IT's aren't the answer, I'm tellin' ya. They aren't gonna do what you think they'll do. Again, if you don't believe me, find a couple NPC targets and hit the brakes. See how long it takes your turret guys, with you at 0 throttle and off somewhere getting a drink, to wipe out the bogies. My bet is you'll make the perfect Bloody Mary and they won't be halfway done with a tier 5. And that's better than they'd fare with independent turrets. Seriously, try it some time. They'll miss nearly as much as when you're moving. Because a turret is a different beast.
If I were to complain, it'd be about the 90 degree lock. Han and Luke didn't have a 90 degree lock. How 'bout fighting and lobbying to get rid of that?
Lets imagine your Mutlipassenger ship has 20k shields and armor. How long do you think it would last in PvP against a fighter with no shields and armor. With the way turrets work now that single fighter would tear you a new one just because you are forced to either sit still so you can MAYBE hit it or evade and not be able to hit it.
I'd blow the Mofo sky high. If my pilot were halfway smart, he'd run straight with a heavy shield angle, and the minute the fightermade 2+ connecting shots I'd have him with one; if I didn't, I'd deserve to get blown up. It doesn't pertain to the argument regarding IT's, but I thought I'd answer your question. I'm kinda a polite freak that way.
Message Edited by DosWindo on 01-12-2005 07:50 PM