Pilot Archive
Thread: Suggestion: Independent Turrets?
NightGun
Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:46 am
#40
Indepent turrets simply don't make since. They do take away from skill because part of riding as a turret gunner is knowning how to adjust to the ships movements and still get hits. Accuracy of 50 -75 % sounds pretty decent to me for a turret gunner now all you have to do is get them to be able to still do that while you are actually flying the ship instead of sitting still. As is JTL is way easy in my opion to easy but I realize not all think that way. However just because it takes time and practice to be a good turret gunner I don't think we need to go changing a system that is already correct. Turrets are attached to the ship and do not have any automated controls to keep with a target you are in the turret it is your job to stay on target. I think that many adjustments are need to make MP ships more valuable but making turrets insanley easier to use is not one of them. I would recommend your gunners use the mouse controls and also would recommmend they not focus to hard on any single fighter but take shots of opportunity as a target comes into view. Communication with the pilot can help with this a lot but remember as a turret gunner you have to line up and shoot quick which yes means you will miss a lot but the reason it is a turret is it should do a pretty insane amount of damage (I know they don't now).
PadiOne
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:43 am
#41
MericCarew wrote:
Multipassenger ships aren't worth it at the moment and we all can agree with that. Having Independant turrets would go a very long way into making them a lot more useful. I am confused why people would object to making it so their master level ships are more worthwhile.
I do not know how many of you actually postion here own a Multipassenger ship. I do and can tell you that having to take hits by flying straight so that your gunners can hit their targets is insane, and as far as PvP goes it is an impossibility. I have taken 100's of people up to gun during Beta and into live and even while completly motionless most of the better gunners will still only hit 75% of the time. Thats 75% against the eaiser to hit targets, against A-Wings and most TIE's that number drops to around 50% and even less for the majority of those who want to be gunners.
Making turrets independant does not take away from the skill involved in gunning because the gunner will still need to manual target and manually fire at the target that is still moving itself. Independant turrets doesn't mean that your target sitting still always under your reticle. If your target moves to the right and your pilot moves left you will still need to move your reticle to the right to keep him under your recticle. How people confuse that with automatic hits confuses me becuase it is still the players who have to aim and fire at the target and hit or miss is dependant on the gunners skill.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 11-24-2004 11:14 AM
Meric. Star Destroyers aren't starfighters, and neither are Nova's, YT's, or VT-49's. Their defense is their ability to hang in a fight over a long time. Thus, improving the odds that they'll be able to hit their intended target. For the big ships, its about the number of shots fired - not about the accuracy. With 100 turbo batteries, if the star destroyers in the movies hit 75% of their shots, the battles would have been over in seconds.... and the rebels wouldn't have one.
The problem with the MP ships is that you can't keep them in a fight long enough to be effective, and in the rare event that you do, you just don't do the dmg that a ship that size should do.
Also, keep in mind that they ordnance launchers are the only offensive weapons on the MP ships. The laser batteries are for defensive purposes.
AirDingo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:15 pm
#42
It seems to me that the largest complaint so far is the question of whether ships with Independent Turretsremove skill. So lets think about that. We have ship A with Dependent Turrets and ship B with Independent Turrets. Both A and B are flying straight or doing gentle turns and rolls (as some have said is the true way to fly MP ships as of right now) Since ship movement is basically nill then there is a negligible amount ofdifference in the distance gunners have to track to find their targets given identical firing solutions. So when flying straight or doing gentle turns and rolls it really doesn't matter if you have Independent Turrets or no. BTW Flying straight or with gentle rolls is a good way to get a torp up the exhaust pipe and for all who have seen this happen to a certain battlestation that is a very bad thing...
Now lets take the situation of defensive flying. Both A and B are negotiating an Asteroid field being pursued by enemy ships. It is a given the pilot will be forced to execute evasive maneuvers on a moments notice. Sudden juking and diving and rolling and all sorts of neat maneuvers. What happens now? Ship A's accuracy would drop to pretty much nil wouldn't it? Even with verbal communication the pilot couldn't possibly tell the gunners how to aim at the same time as avoiding all the obstacles. Everyone can admit that. But what about B? Ship B's accuracy would also drop. B's pilot would be executing the very same manuvers Ship A's Pilot would be doing. That means without a doubt the turret's line of fire would rotate through several windows just as Ship A's did. However, the difference is with independent turrets ship B would have time to track and fire a few shots at the enemy during each window of opportunity.
Now that being said, lets take an example from the movies. The ship everything here is based off of: the Millenium Falcon. In the movies we see the falcon go into battle a number of times. The last thing Han is doing is keeping the ship still.He has the Falcon doing belly rolls and who knows what else? Obviously Han feels a need to do this otherwise he would just fly straight. I mean that would get him to his destination faster. No, he must think that he will have to do these maneuvers to stay alive (I doubt he does them just for giggles...) and this is the Falcon Han wants to keep alive. I'm going off the assumption that as heavily modified as the Falcon is it makes our MP ships look like those starter ships... So if Han doesn't fly straight why do we think we could?
AirDingo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:37 pm
#43
I was not implying that simply making turrets Independent is an end-all to MP ships. Not at all. It was simply the topic of this particular thread. I agree that it would be great to see additional modifications, but I was simply focusing on just this one particular aspect.
1st_Viduus
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:54 pm
#44
AirDingo wrote:
Now that being said, lets take an example from the movies. The ship everything here is based off of: the Millenium Falcon. In the movies we see the falcon go into battle a number of times. The last thing Han is doing is keeping the ship still.He has the Falcon doing belly rolls and who knows what else? Obviously Han feels a need to do this otherwise he would just fly straight. I mean that would get him to his destination faster. No, he must think that he will have to do these maneuvers to stay alive (I doubt he does them just for giggles...) and this is the Falcon Han wants to keep alive. I'm going off the assumption that as heavily modified as the Falcon is it makes our MP ships look like those starter ships... So if Han doesn't fly straight why do we think we could?
Incorrect.
We see Han take the Millenium Falcon into battle, yes. There are 2 instances where he is actually using the turrets (manned)... the scene in which he gets Chewie to fly(and there's a lot of rolling but very little turning - watch the scene) while he and Luke fire the turrets manually and it takes them forever just to kill 4 TIE basic. And Han is supposed to be exceptional at it...
The second instance is when they are chased into an asteroid feild, where they actually managed to shoot down ONE TIE basic, the rest were exploded on asteroid impacts... and nobody was manning the turrets. His automated blasters did the firing.
Every other instance we see the Millenium Falcon go into combat, Han has the turrets locked forward and is firing from the helm.
This is something we cannot do, and nor do I feel we should.
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 11-24-2004 02:56 PM
MericCarew
Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:21 pm
#45
PadiOne wrote:
MericCarew wrote:
Multipassenger ships aren't worth it at the moment and we all can agree with that. Having Independant turrets would go a very long way into making them a lot more useful. I am confused why people would object to making it so their master level ships are more worthwhile.
I do not know how many of you actually postion here own a Multipassenger ship. I do and can tell you that having to take hits by flying straight so that your gunners can hit their targets is insane, and as far as PvP goes it is an impossibility. I have taken 100's of people up to gun during Beta and into live and even while completly motionless most of the better gunners will still only hit 75% of the time. Thats 75% against the eaiser to hit targets, against A-Wings and most TIE's that number drops to around 50% and even less for the majority of those who want to be gunners.
Making turrets independant does not take away from the skill involved in gunning because the gunner will still need to manual target and manually fire at the target that is still moving itself. Independant turrets doesn't mean that your target sitting still always under your reticle. If your target moves to the right and your pilot moves left you will still need to move your reticle to the right to keep him under your recticle. How people confuse that with automatic hits confuses me becuase it is still the players who have to aim and fire at the target and hit or miss is dependant on the gunners skill.Message Edited by MericCarew on 11-24-2004 11:14 AM
Meric. Star Destroyers aren't starfighters, and neither are Nova's, YT's, or VT-49's. Their defense is their ability to hang in a fight over a long time. Thus, improving the odds that they'll be able to hit their intended target. For the big ships, its about the number of shots fired - not about the accuracy. With 100 turbo batteries, if the star destroyers in the movies hit 75% of their shots, the battles would have been over in seconds.... and the rebels wouldn't have one.
The problem with the MP ships is that you can't keep them in a fight long enough to be effective, and in the rare event that you do, you just don't do the dmg that a ship that size should do.
Also, keep in mind that they ordnance launchers are the only offensive weapons on the MP ships. The laser batteries are for defensive purposes.
A Star Destroyer is not desgined for anti-starfighter combat. It is meant to subdue whole systems and to completly overpower any enemy Capital ships it came into contact with.
I am confused as to how you got onto comparing what happens in game to what happened in the movies. The 75% I threw out there was the percentage of shots a very good gunner will hit while gunning on a stationary Multipassenger ship. The number isn't exact either but from whatching a hell of a lot of people gun form my turrets in Beta and Live. Now you say it's the number of shots that matters in the end and I have to disagree with you there. Mainly for the fact that in PvP a fighter pilot will have damn near 100% accuracy against you in a Multipassenger ship while only the better gunners are able to come close to 75% and more often then not the first shots are missed while the gunner is trying to find the correct lead on his target, and the Starfighter pilot already has his down. Now in PvE this isn't really an issue until you face higher tier Multipassenger ships and Capital ships.
The problem with the MP ships is that you can't keep them in a fight long enough to be effective, and in the rare event that you do, you just don't do the dmg that a ship that size should do.
Right there you said it all. Independant Turrets would go a very long way to making Multipassenger ships twice as effective as they currently are and help deal out twice as much damage as they currently do by allowing the gunners to hit their targets even while on the move. A stationary target is a dead target and borders on suicide. Independant Turrets in PvE would allow a Multipassnger ship to dance (as well as a flying brick can dance that is) while fighting against NPC's fighters and open new tactics for taking down Capital ships. As for PvP it would also help in the fact that what sucidal pilot is going to run up alone in an A-Wing against a Multipassenger ship that can actually hit it with a 4k+ damage weapon while dancing it's way through a battlefield. Any smart pilot would avoid it until it had reinforments.
Now onto ordnance. I thought that was kind of funny. A lot of people here are saying that Multipassenger ships aren't Starfighters and I agree, but in orber to use ordance against anything but Capital ships requires that you attempt to fly like one. Which in most cases means you only have guns to keep you safe. Also would like to add while the Nova and Decimator have 3 ordnance slots the YT-1300 only has 2 which is a lot less missile firepower then the other two ships.
Independant Turrets won't fix all the issues with Multipassenger ships but it would go a hell of a long way to making them viable in combat other then just against Capital ships. Other things I would like to see would be increased range for all Multipassenger ships and higher probably around 700m for NPC and PC controlled ships. We need better shield and armor eqiupment. The type of stuff only equipable on Multipassenger ships. There are a lot more things that could help as well but the biggest for me now would be Independant Turrets because even with more range and better equipment you are still dead if you can't hit your targets with a decent amount of accuracy.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 11-24-2004 04:24 PM
TomoRainer
Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:08 pm
#46
Not to mention anyone who's ever fought an NPC multiperson ship knows they have independent turrets. I can remember back when I was flying a Kihraxz, one of the most agile ships in the game, and even when I was pulling the most random Crazy Ivan juking patterns on them they were still hitting roughly 90% of the time. Which is roughly 100% IMPOSSIBLE!
Heh, seriously though, MP ships need some real changes, and I think this would be a useful one. Another thing to consider is that, in basically every situation, a MP ship can only fire at a given target with one turret at a time. Add in the low accuracy that comes with a turret that gets yanked around with the ship, and you really can't do the kind of damage a ship of this size should be dishing out.
It needs some kind of help, and I think independent turrets would be one step in that process.
Heh, seriously though, MP ships need some real changes, and I think this would be a useful one. Another thing to consider is that, in basically every situation, a MP ship can only fire at a given target with one turret at a time. Add in the low accuracy that comes with a turret that gets yanked around with the ship, and you really can't do the kind of damage a ship of this size should be dishing out.
It needs some kind of help, and I think independent turrets would be one step in that process.
AirDingo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:28 pm
#47
1st_Viduus wrote:
It doesn't really matter, one way or the other.
If you want to use the cinematics, then let's do that.
When Chewbacca is flying and Han & Luke are firing the turrets, Chewie is doing quite a bit of rolling, but very little turning. Camera switches views to Luke in the turret... and wouldn't you know it, the Tie's are flying by mighty quickly, but Luke is tracking them... and he has to follow them... but either a: during those shots, the ship isn't rolling or turning in any way (fromsome clips, that's what it looks like) or b: the turrets are moving with the ship, and they are tracking around that (also a couple of short clips where this is apparent).
Go rewatch the movie.
I don't think anyone has compared Chewie to Han... He may be quite the co-pilot and mechie but when it comes to piloting he doesn't hold a candle to someone like Han... And since Chewie is flying pretty much straight, Luke being a newbie to turrets and combat in general gets lucky in nailing but a single TIE. If those TIEs were actually trying to kill them I doubt luke would even have come close. I must confess. I believe I am be missing your point because of course he has to track the TIEs otherwise he would NEVER hit them. If your point is that it is Luke tracking the TIEs and not some AI doing it for him then yes but Chewie as you pointed out IS flying straight so be it independent or dependent doesn't matter. All that proves is luke is a pretty poor shot at this point.
AirDingo
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:08 am
#48
Well first of all your first instance is a strange example for you to pull from because those TIEs weren't trying to kill the falcon at all. They were just trying to be evasive. The Empire let them go to track them. And as for your second instance they were not fighting they were fleeing. Perhaps you missed the ISDs and SSD on thier tail? In fact in both instances they were fleeing. And rightly so given it is the Empire and all. Woo! (Ok a little shameless rooting there but oh well :smileyvery-happy
As for them shooting those 4 TIEs. Have you ever tried hitting those little black ships? They are hard to hit unless you broadside thier solar panels having almost a narrow a profile as A-wings. And from what I recall Han wasn't the one who had all the difficulty shooting the TIEs. It was luke who up till then had never even been in a turret before.
1st_Viduus
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:15 am
#49
Yes they were fleeing...
Yes they were firing...
Yes it took them forever to get any shots in, and you make my point for me - the ties were being evasive, and were nearly impossible to hit.
Luke being "the hero" in the movies and FS had an edge - and he didn't get all the kills, just got the first one.
And as I said, every other instance of combat for the MF is either Locked Forward Position, or Automated Firing Systems (AI).
Besides which, using the MF as an example is poor at best, since as you can see in the movies, and as the devs have stated, the MF is an exceptionally customized ship and far exceeds all performance variables that players will never, ever, be able to meet, nevermind exceed.
You never see the MF go head-to-head with any small ships, the only cases where he actually goes offensive are when he comes in from behind with guns locked forward and shoots Luke's attackers.
AirDingo
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:24 am
#50
The Falcon is what these ships are based off of, be it extraordinary or not, I was using those examples to show that flying straight (which is the only way to BE accurate enough with a dependent turret in a combat situation) is nothing but pure suicide. Having independent turrets would allow a pilot to be able to perform much more intensive maneuvers while having the gunners maintain a mediocrum of accuracy to make flying that huge starship worth it. Is there any doubt that a ship with indepenedent turrets could in fact fly better maneuvers than a ship with dependent turrets? And that a ship flying maneuvers has alot more survivability than one flying straight?
1st_Viduus
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:31 am
#51
It doesn't really matter, one way or the other.
If you want to use the cinematics, then let's do that.
When Chewbacca is flying and Han & Luke are firing the turrets, Chewie is doing quite a bit of rolling, but very little turning. Camera switches views to Luke in the turret... and wouldn't you know it, the Tie's are flying by mighty quickly, but Luke is tracking them... and he has to follow them... but either a: during those shots, the ship isn't rolling or turning in any way (fromsome clips, that's what it looks like) or b: the turrets are moving with the ship, and they are tracking around that (also a couple of short clips where this is apparent).
Go rewatch the movie.
AnzelVincir
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am
#52
I really don't see why the turrets can't be locked forward. We are in a universe where you can travel faster than the speed of light but you can't lock a turret in the forward position?
Even if you made it so that the co-pilot in the second chair needed to fire the weapons and issue droid commands it would be an improvement over what we have now.