Pilot Archive
Thread: Suggestion: Independent Turrets?
Blackjack_Nova
Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:04 pm
#27
This is one of those features (independate turret operation) that one of the devs replyed with "Iwill look into this". This was in
JTL Beta. I am getting old so I forgot the Devs name but I absolutly remember that response.
JTL Beta. I am getting old so I forgot the Devs name but I absolutly remember that response.
It would be Starwararific if we could get a further word on this!
1st_Viduus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:50 pm
#28
AnteriusPataka wrote:
Ok...here's my clarification that I accidently put into a new thread...
---------------------------
Ok first off people... when we say "independant turret movement" We do not imply that ANY AI is going to be involved. What we are saying that when the ship banks, the guns do not change where they are pointing. They stay where they are pointing until either: A) the ship turns so much the turret reaches it's limit of fire arc. or B) the gunner moves it.
We are not implying any computer controlled turrets at all. These are still completely and utterly manned guns.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion that I've been getting from your posts.
And the response :}
There's no confusion, at least not on my part.
What you're asking as "Independant Movement" is akin to "Gyroscopic stabilization".
How do you intend independant motion when the turret is attached to the ship?
I like the system the way it is, difficult as it can be to adjust to, because it requires pilot - crew communication and teamwork to make an effective team.
Releasing the turrets from the motion of the hull would make the gunners an offensive hardpoint, when they are in fact a defensive hardpoint.
I have had a few gunners up, and some of them have a very very hard time with the tuurets.... others have a great time with them, having had practice in other games. I see no reason to change the ships in this regard, rather, it would behoove the gunners to learn to fire effectively, and the pilots to learn to fly with a crew.
Ventrilo or TeamSpeak really, really help, btw...
1st_Viduus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:25 pm
#29
You said the AI would have no part of it...
But having the turret move independantly from the ship would be virtually inseparable from AI-enhanced tracking, where all you need to do is "fine tune" the tuning the AI is already providing for you... hence, point-and-click firing. Completely removes the need for turret skills as a gunner, and makes it "shooting fish in a barrel".
I'm strongly opposed to the idea, it can be done effectively with a good crew and good communications, and implementing this would allow "just anyone" to hit up a turret and be dangerous.
The idea with the turrets, besides giving out huge damage (mine are 4k and 3.4k respectively) is that they are a defensive measure - anyone getting in gun range runs the risk of getting blown to pieces by a good gunner, not is guaranteed to get blown to pieces by some yokel with a trigger.
AirDingo
Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:39 pm
#30
I believe your idea of an "independent" turret is flawed... there is no AI involved and its not "shooting fish in a barrel" either. The idea is that the gunner can track and fire without the movement of the ship to screw up his aim. And as far as removing the skills of a gunner thats not any more true than a starfighter not needing skills. As any competent fighter knows the targetting reticle your provided doesn't guarantee a hit. Only a guide. The difference between a novice and a master isn't skill points or boxes its knowing how to maneuver your ship and how to predict the movement of the enemy to shoot not where he is but where he will be. The same basis is used for Turrets with the exception of maneuvering.
Jay-Bird
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:15 pm
#31
BTW, sorry to burst your bubble but when it says 5,000,000 mass......it was supposed to be 500,000.0 mass. So the MP ships actually have 500k mass, not 5 million.....
Jay-Bird
Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:25 pm
#32
That really all it comes down to. People are not good at firing NOW so want the system made easier NOW. Personally, i have flow on a y-wing, a Nova, and a Decimator, and I don't have much trouble shooting. There are just little tricks you need to employ. Such as, never let your mouse stop moving for more than 3 secounds. That is the window you will have to fire at a ship. At the end of that time, it will have made it to a differant quadrant (the ship being point 0, -0) so you will have to adjust, or it will have moved to a differant quadrant on the verticle plane, making it impossible to shoot it from your side of the ship. The thing is, every ship will take 3 or so passes befoer it is destroyed. Every gunner must focus on every ship, not just one. If your ship can't take 3-4 passes, from 3-4 ship, then it will not be safe.
1st_Viduus wrote:
AnteriusPataka wrote:
Ok...here's my clarification that I accidently put into a new thread...
---------------------------
Ok first off people... when we say "independant turret movement" We do not imply that ANY AI is going to be involved. What we are saying that when the ship banks, the guns do not change where they are pointing. They stay where they are pointing until either: A) the ship turns so much the turret reaches it's limit of fire arc. or B) the gunner moves it.
We are not implying any computer controlled turrets at all. These are still completely and utterly manned guns.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion that I've been getting from your posts.
And the response :}
There's no confusion, at least not on my part.
What you're asking as "Independant Movement" is akin to "Gyroscopic stabilization".
How do you intend independant motion when the turret is attached to the ship?
I like the system the way it is, difficult as it can be to adjust to, because it requires pilot - crew communication and teamwork to make an effective team.
Releasing the turrets from the motion of the hull would make the gunners an offensive hardpoint, when they are in fact a defensive hardpoint.
I have had a few gunners up, and some of them have a very very hard time with the tuurets.... others have a great time with them, having had practice in other games. I see no reason to change the ships in this regard, rather, it would behoove the gunners to learn to fire effectively, and the pilots to learn to fly with a crew.
Ventrilo or TeamSpeak really, really help, btw...
1st_Viduus
Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:38 pm
#33
AirDingo wrote:
I believe your idea of an "independent" turret is flawed... there is no AI involved and its not "shooting fish in a barrel" either. The idea is that the gunner can track and fire without the movement of the ship to screw up his aim. And as far as removing the skills of a gunner thats not any more true than a starfighter not needing skills. As any competent fighter knows the targetting reticle your provided doesn't guarantee a hit. Only a guide. The difference between a novice and a master isn't skill points or boxes its knowing how to maneuver your ship and how to predict the movement of the enemy to shoot not where he is but where he will be. The same basis is used for Turrets with the exception of maneuvering.
Maybe shooting fish in a barrel was a small exaggeration, but certainly still 10 times easier than flying ship and shooting. And there's no reason that should be so.
I know there is no actual AI in-game involved.
But you're asking the AI aka SERVER to eliminate ship movement, which comes to exactly the same thing.
My view is NOT skewed. I simply find it perfect the way it is. Nullifying ship movement as a factor in aiming effectively removes the requirement of skill, you need only follow the little green blip and poof! it's dead.
As it is now, you need to talk to your pilot, make sure he rolls this way or dives or turns or pulls up... and all of it gently... and when he moves you need to get back on target. You need to let go of the trigger once in a while, while you re-aquire. You need to know when the opportunity is golden, and when to potshot. The pilot needs to learn to warn you before changing vectors. Or before speed changes. Et cetera et cetera.
It's not broken, don't fix it.
AirDingo
Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:06 am
#34
My point still stands that it does not remove skill. If you take a lousy shot and put him into a turret, be it independent or not, he will still be a lousy shot. The same applies to a good shot. What it might do is make them both better. JtL is not a matter of simply clicking and shooting. Its about timing and precision. Think from the viewpoint of a starship designer. Having the turret move with the ship is nothing but a hinderance, however you slice it. Now if you remove that hinderance you would improve the performance of your vessel.
Isn't that the goal here? Improving what is already here? This isn't an issue of broken or not broken. This is about making things fun and improve things. Everyone, be they lousy or a good shot, would benefit from Independent turrets. And as for AI... everything is AI when you look at it from the server's point of view. PCs are just bits and bytes like everything else. So what if we ask the server to remove ship movement? We ask the server to show us the way with a great huge pillar of light! We ask the server to execute our combat for us while we are on the ground and to call in reinforcements when in space be it bombers, pirates or repair ships.
And for talking to my crew and gunners, I do that. I talk to them as much as I can when in combat. Communication in combat is very important. I agree with you 100% in that regard. But this doesn't have to do with communication or piloting at all. This has to do with turrets and thier accuracy. If a pilot barrel rolls a turret is gonna lose thier target with or without independence.And no amount of communication will improve accuracy, all it will improve is target acquisition. This idea hurts no one. A lousy shot might become a decent shot right along with a good shot being an awesome shot.
NightGun
Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:19 am
#35
More guns More sheilds more equipment all very good ideas.
Turretts no longer attached to the ship bad idea IMHO.
I do not like the idea of Turrets not moving with the ship and would not want any kind of AI in the turrets. I think the turrets are intended to be a definsive measure mostly and also anit fighter. MP ships should be like a small capital ship. Obviously these are more manuverable and don't have quite that much firepower but that is were I see their role coming in. Independent turrets simply don't make sense to me.
NightGun
Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:55 am
#36
By having a turret move independently of the ship it does indeed remove skill. Ai is invloved to eliminate the movement of the ship thus allowing much easier time in lining up a target. Since what you are purposing is that the turret would always stay were it was pointed you are proposing an AI to "keep my target lined up" while the ship moves. This is AI no way around it. Call it whatever you want when the turret moves automatically (if it stays lined up that is what it is doing) then that is AI movement of the turret. I know you are not proposing that the turret shoot on its own that would be just horrible but what you are proposing is nearly as bad. The turret is attached to the ship it will move with the ship if it doesn't then an AI is countering the movement of the ship.
With good pilot communication this can be easily overcome. You do not always have to move in a straight line you just have to make sure your gunners know what you are doing so they can adjust. Starting out stright lines and slow turns are probably the best plan to get used to everything then just keep up good communication and all should be good.
Also you may to consider that the pilot twisting the ship around can also line up new shots for you how upset will you be when the shot disappears to quickly because of AI turret movement.
Please do not let this happen I think it would hurt the game way to much.
PadiOne
Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:26 am
#37
I don't like the idea of independent turrets. If you ship turns, the gun is gonna turn. If it doesn't than it's computer controlled. If it's computer controlled, you don't need gunners.
The thing with these turrets is that they aren't suppose to hit all the time like a starfighter. However, they should hit for big dmg. The problem that we're gonna run into if they put huge guns and shields into the game as lvl 10 parts for the MP ships is that somebody is gonna find a way to RE them down so they fit in an oppressor. That just shouldn't happen. So we need 1 of 2 things. Either MP specific components that are craft by shipwrights only, or there needs to be modifiers assigned to the ships. This would function similar to the speed modifiers that are already in place.
Currently, a Tie/IN has a spd modifier of .97, whereas a Tie Interceptor has a modifier of 1.00. If you have a 100.0 top spd engine, then you can go 970 in the Tie/IN or 1000 in the Tie Interceptor. If we applied this same concept to laser batteries for the MP ships we could do something like this:
All single and two man craft have a weapon modifier of 1.00. MP ships could be assigned a weapon mod of 1.5. This would give you 6000 power out of you 4000 dmg lasers. Something similar could be done for the shields. I really think this is the purpose of the overload 4 commands at this point. However, to this point, I haven't been in a ship that could effectively use them because we couldn't put a big enough reactor in it. Also, it may be necessary to expand the memory of the v6 flight pc's.
Another idea is that all guns put into MP ships hit for max dmg.
There are alot of things in this thread that are good ideas and we need to keep this discussion going. However, I don't think we want to push too hard for any of these changes right away. At this time, there are very few pilots who have really tweaked their ships. We just haven't had a large enough time period to get the good RE components at the higher levels and only the most die hard pilots have figured out which droid commands work the absolute best with their ships. I think its gonna take at least two more weeks before we can truly gauge which changes will need to be made.
MericCarew
Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:02 am
#38
Multipassenger ships aren't worth it at the moment and we all can agree with that. Having Independant turrets would go a very long way into making them a lot more useful. I am confused why people would object to making it so their master level ships are more worthwhile.
I do not know how many of you actually postion here own a Multipassenger ship. I do and can tell you that having to take hits by flying straight so that your gunners can hit their targets is insane, and as far as PvP goes it is an impossibility. I have taken 100's of people up to gun during Beta and into live and even while completly motionless most of the better gunners will still only hit 75% of the time. Thats 75% against the eaiser to hit targets, against A-Wings and most TIE's that number drops to around 50% and even less for the majority of those who want to be gunners.
Making turrets independant does not take away from the skill involved in gunning because the gunner will still need to manual target and manually fire at the target that is still moving itself. Independant turrets doesn't mean that your target sitting still always under your reticle. If your target moves to the right and your pilot moves left you will still need to move your reticle to the right to keep him under your recticle. How people confuse that with automatic hits confuses me becuase it is still the players who have to aim and fire at the target and hit or miss is dependant on the gunners skill.
I do not know how many of you actually postion here own a Multipassenger ship. I do and can tell you that having to take hits by flying straight so that your gunners can hit their targets is insane, and as far as PvP goes it is an impossibility. I have taken 100's of people up to gun during Beta and into live and even while completly motionless most of the better gunners will still only hit 75% of the time. Thats 75% against the eaiser to hit targets, against A-Wings and most TIE's that number drops to around 50% and even less for the majority of those who want to be gunners.
Making turrets independant does not take away from the skill involved in gunning because the gunner will still need to manual target and manually fire at the target that is still moving itself. Independant turrets doesn't mean that your target sitting still always under your reticle. If your target moves to the right and your pilot moves left you will still need to move your reticle to the right to keep him under your recticle. How people confuse that with automatic hits confuses me becuase it is still the players who have to aim and fire at the target and hit or miss is dependant on the gunners skill.
Message Edited by MericCarew on 11-24-2004 11:14 AM
1st_Viduus
Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:28 am
#39
I own a Decimator, got it the day I got my Ace.
And I'm against changing the turrets to "independant motion" - I realise most people find it difficult as it is, and that's just too bad. Take the time to learn, and practice,and your accuracy will go up. Not any more complicated than that.
And I'm against changing the turrets to "independant motion" - I realise most people find it difficult as it is, and that's just too bad. Take the time to learn, and practice,and your accuracy will go up. Not any more complicated than that.
I AM however 100% FOR increasing the defenses of the MP ships, or at least, changing how damage is dealt to them.
A large ship with defensive, player controlled turrets SHOULD be forced to make changes in motion very, very slowly.
You never saw a B-52 in WWII doing barrel rolls around the Germans.
You never saw a B-52 in WWII doing barrel rolls around the Germans.