Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
Featuringhigher mass. If you got issues with the JSF, try a Heavy Z-95.
Feyne wrote:
Capping the equipment level for the chassis is not a valid solution. For example, the majority of pilots and certainly pilot/shipwrights will tell you that there is VERY little point in having a reactor past level 4.
I RE'd a level 2 reactor yesterday with only 1346 mass but over 13k generation. The kind of power is about as high as you will get, including the higher levels.
My only gripe about the ships is that they are don't fit in with the "real" star wars ships.
Examples? The only ships in the Star Wars universe that have more than one gunmount (that are in-game) are the b-wing and the y-wing. The only ones that have more than one missile mount are the b-wing and the TIE bomber.
An x-wing with 3 different guns? It is not a gun boat, it's a fighter!
Now dont get me wrong, i woudl cut down on the imp fighters too. Your basic TIES (fighter, interceptor AND advanced) do NOT have missile launchers. I woudl even have doubts about the Advanced havign more than one gun mount.
Being a hard-core star wars fan i find the idea of the x-wing being a floating gun platform a bit tough.
Here is a list of what teh ships shoudl have...to be accurate with reagrds to the established star wars values in the books and movies.
Y-wing - 2 guns, 1 missile 2 guns actually
X-wing - 1 gun, 1 missile 4 guns, 2 missiles actually
A-wing - 1 gun, 1 missile (in some books the guns on the a-wings can rotate 45 degrees up and down..you decide) 2guns actually
B-Wing - 2 guns, 2 missiles 4 guns - i think
TIE Fighter - 1 gun 2 guns
TIE Interceptor - 1 gun 4 guns
TIE Bomber - 1 gun, 2 missile 2 guns
TIE Advanced - 1 gun, 1 missile 2 guns
Maybe if you wanted mor egns you coudl get a mod kit form a shipwright which wouuld grant you more mass to mount another gun, but it woudl slow your ship a lot.
Bits in red are ACTUALLY the "real" star wars stats, however that is not the whole issue. What about toning down the Awings manouverability and upping the Xwings - the Xwing is more manouverable in the SW EU, however, the A is MUCH faster. No TIEs should have shiels except maybe the adv, agg and, opp. All freelancer ships would have to be scrapped and replaced by uglies!
Isamu-alva wrote:
SOE won't nerf these ships because they are 1 time quest rewards, they are supposed to be a little bit better than the standard ships to encourage you to do the quest in the first place, what's the point of doing a quest if you get a reward thats the same as an item manufactured in-game.
At the end of the day (barring the bellabub) you can only do these quests once and after enough blowing up in space all these ships will be down to 10/10 condition and be practically useless eventually anyway and people will go back to the standard ships.
It's the age old arguement, if can't beat them, join them, if you get annoyed at eta-actis / Arc / RGI / Vaksia / Adv X / bellabub pilots, go get one yourself and beat them at thier own game, nerfs don't help anyone in the long run they just alienate people.
Youd be wrong. As a rebel I have a jsf and can get a bel22 no problem. However the fact that we hadbalanced access to an unbalanced ship from the start does not mean that everything is magically balanced. The ROTW ships would still be unblalanced, would have become compo armour in space even quicker, and would have eradicates the Star Wars Xwing versus TIE space feeling that used to exist in space even quicker.
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Please...
...we all knew more mass was coming. Look how many times it's been done in the past.
The Dunelizard, 65k to 85k, in response to b*tching and moaning.
The Oppressor, ~140k (IIRC) to 170k, in response to b*tching and moaning.
The Firespray, 190 (IIRC) to 220k, in response to...well, you get the idea...and boy, that one pissed off early KSE adopters...
...SOE wasn't unbalancing the game in introducing these ships, they were cutting out the middleman and trying to avoid having to change it later, because they knew the throngs of incoming nugget pilots were going to flood the forums with "OMG THIS IS TOO F*!(&@# HARD" posts...
And as we've seen as of late, their forward thinking still didn't save us from THAT, either.
EDIT: I still think 75% of these posts would've never been authored had SOE just made two different versions of the JSF - the Eta-2 for Imperials, and the Delta-7 for Rebels.
Somehow I think all would've been mostly right and good with the world had it been done that way. Call it a hunch.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-18-2005 04:54 AM
Why will they suddenly get bored and stop using them, exactly?
Isamu-alva wrote:
SOE won't nerf these ships because they are 1 time quest rewards, they are supposed to be a little bit better than the standard ships to encourage you to do the quest in the first place, what's the point of doing a quest if you get a reward thats the same as an item manufactured in-game.
At the end of the day (barring the bellabub) you can only do these quests once and after enough blowing up in space all these ships will be down to 10/10 condition and be practically useless eventually anyway and people will go back to the standard ships.
It's the age old arguement, if can't beat them, join them, if you get annoyed at eta-actis / Arc / RGI / Vaksia / Adv X / bellabub pilots, go get one yourself and beat them at thier own game, nerfs don't help anyone in the long run they just alienate people.
Not true. Not exactly, anyway. In addition to people repairing in Deep Space, a chassis at 10/10 condition is JUST as effective in PvP as a full condition ship. Only in PvE are you likely to notice a difference, and even that would be minor. These ships aren't going anywhere. Additionally, maybe instead of the word nerf try balance - many pilots want to see the game continue and grow stronger, the new ships are not helping that.
The Heavy ships also need to be looked at. I would suggest moving them to 4/x/x/x or Ace. They really make no sense where they are now - especially the Heavy TIE, which negates nearly every other variant of TIE until possibly the Advanced or Opressor as a dogfighter. The heavies could have been much better implemented - it's great to see regular TIE fighters out in Deep Space and in PvP. But it makes absolutely no sense to hand a new pilot a 90k ship. All that does is lead to more whining when they still can't pass their missions because they never learn component balance. The heavies throw the entire system off balance.
I like them in PvP though. Brings more of an SWG freel at Ace. But they should never have been introduced as newbie ships.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Isamu-alva wrote:
SOE won't nerf these ships because they are 1 time quest rewards, they are supposed to be a little bit better than the standard ships to encourage you to do the quest in the first place, what's the point of doing a quest if you get a reward thats the same as an item manufactured in-game.
At the end of the day (barring the bellabub) you can only do these quests once and after enough blowing up in space all these ships will be down to 10/10 condition and be practically useless eventually anyway and people will go back to the standard ships.
It's the age old arguement, if can't beat them, join them, if you get annoyed at eta-actis / Arc / RGI / Vaksia / Adv X / bellabub pilots, go get one yourself and beat them at thier own game, nerfs don't help anyone in the long run they just alienate people.
So, what you propose is a player based movement to voluntarily nerf all the balanced JTL ships in favour of the unbalanced ROTW ships. Can you tell me why you think this is a good idea, cause i can certainly tell you why it isnt?And the new ships will NEVER hit a condition of 10/10, especially if you fly in DS!And see my post above on why new QUEST or crafted items are NOT supposed to be better than stuff you can already get!
Hmm you're quoting me out of context here, if you read the section you have highlighted I have pointed out that nerfs dont help anyone, they just wind people up.
The only other thing that could solve this problem is increase the YPR and mass of the pre-ROTW ships to bring them inline but then you've just got a generic box with wings that has a skin over the top and no real point to having different ship styles.
And as far as ships never losing condition in DS, well you dont lose condition on items while overt on ground based PVP either so that make's sense really. So what if you get smoked in DS by a JSF, just repair in DS and you dont have any lost condition either.
Isamu-alva wrote:
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Isamu-alva wrote:
SOE won't nerf these ships because they are 1 time quest rewards, they are supposed to be a little bit better than the standard ships to encourage you to do the quest in the first place, what's the point of doing a quest if you get a reward thats the same as an item manufactured in-game.
At the end of the day (barring the bellabub) you can only do these quests once and after enough blowing up in space all these ships will be down to 10/10 condition and be practically useless eventually anyway and people will go back to the standard ships.
It's the age old arguement, if can't beat them, join them, if you get annoyed at eta-actis / Arc / RGI / Vaksia / Adv X / bellabub pilots, go get one yourself and beat them at thier own game, nerfs don't help anyone in the long run they just alienate people.
So, what you propose is a player based movement to voluntarily nerf all the balanced JTL ships in favour of the unbalanced ROTW ships. Can you tell me why you think this is a good idea, cause i can certainly tell you why it isnt?
And the new ships will NEVER hit a condition of 10/10, especially if you fly in DS!
And see my post above on why new QUEST or crafted items are NOT supposed to be better than stuff you can already get!
Hmm you're quoting me out of context here, if you read the section you have highlighted I have pointed out that nerfs dont help anyone, they just wind people up.
The only other thing that could solve this problem is increase the YPR and mass of the pre-ROTW ships to bring them inline but then you've just got a generic box with wings that has a skin over the top and no real point to having different ship styles.
And as far as ships never losing condition in DS, well you dont lose condition on items while overt on ground based PVP either so that make's sense really. So what if you get smoked in DS by a JSF, just repair in DS and you dont have any lost condition either.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-18-2005 08:15 AM
Yes, fly them "IF THEY WANT TO", I never said remove all the JTL ships from the game I just said if you cant beat them join them, you're putting words in my mouth, if people don't want to use the quest ships then don't use them, just 'cos I suggest a tactic for dealing with them doesn't mean I expect every pilot on my server to bow down to my opinion and do as I suggest, it's just what "I" would do in that situation.
And as for decay, I was refering to PVE decay in my 1st post, not PVP decay, only when the thread moved towards talking about PVP decay in DS did I change my post to reflect this.
Oh and since when did you have the authority to tell me what words I can and can't use in my messages? If I want to say NERF i'll say NERF, the word NERF is widely used slang for adjusting a game item or system so that it is'nt as good as it once was, it has nothing to do with SW cannon.
What do you want me to say instead "Sausage?"
"Man we need to SAUSAGE the JSF it's too overpowered".. no that just sounds silly.
Message Edited by Isamu-alva on 07-18-2005 04:38 PM
Actually, nerf is a word. We're part of an ever evolving language here.
But basically..you raise a good point. Thing is..we can sit here forever arguing the pros an cons of the rotw ships but I don't think much will be done to actually fix the problem (yet)and yeh there is a problem. We wouldn't have so many huge threads related to the rotw ships if there wasn't a problem. Everyone is making good/fair'ish points I think. Its just down to your ownperspective. Hm.
Thinking about it, I'm really kind of sitting half on/half off the fence with the rotw ships. I acknowledge there are valid issues with them, but at the same time....are they 'really' causing that much hassle? From my point of view, I don't think they are on the whole.
Just how many pilots who choose to fly the JSF etc actually max them out to their full potential? Not all that many I don't think...not on Bria anyway. True there are hundreds of the things buzzing around, but...most of them are flying third rate crafted gear so in that respect, the pilot's own lack of experience kind of balances them out and makes them easier to kill with my outdated vintage A-wing. /shrug..just food for thought.
As I mentioned earlier...most if not all of these new pilots who go from heavy starter ship to JSF/RG TIE/GSF etc are missing out on a whole learning curve here, so yeh there are loads of rotw ships flying around..but are they really that uber? Maybe these rotw ships are on the whole, just letting those who otherwise wouldn't show much interest in space actually get into space and enjoy it a bit more. So a novice is harder to kill now? So what...if you claim yourself to be a good pilot or even an 'ace' this really shouldn't make too much of a difference.
The only time balancing issues come into the game are with pilots as good as or better than you who max out the JSF etc and in times like those, you either go get the same ship and do the same as them so you're ona dead par with them..or if you're like me, you accept that that pilot will probably win due to their enhanced ship and equal/better skills but...if you choose to engage them, well if you lose hey..who cares, you're in a worse ship so wave that off as an excuse [if you really need an excuse]
or...if you do actually beat them, well be glad that you managed to beat somthing bigger than you in somthing lesser than them.
I also play with the naive belief/hope that any pilot worth their weight in bantha fodder will choose not to fly one of these new ships and opt to fly what they used to fly with, prior to rotw to make a point that they don't need stabilisers on their bike to fly. However saying that, I won't openly mock any pilot who chooses to make use of one of these new fangled ships.
/shrug
-Leaph
Isamu-alva wrote:
"2. You suggest that pilots should voluntarily nerf(remove) the JTL ships from the game as they should fly the ROTW if they want to."
Yes, fly them "IF THEY WANT TO", I never said remove all the JTL ships from the game I just said if you cant beat them join them, you're putting words in my mouth, if people don't want to use the quest ships then don't use them, just 'cos I suggest a tactic for dealing with them doesn't mean I expect every pilot on my server to bow down to my opinion and do as I suggest, it's just what "I" would do in that situation.
And as for decay, I was refering to PVE decay in my 1st post, not PVP decay, only when the thread moved towards talking about PVP decay in DS did I change my post to reflect this.
Well if you feel that the best way to address an imbalance is to just fly one of the imbalanced ships, thats is for you to do. Personally, I still cnat see how that fixes the inherent game breaking problem of intoducing imblalnced ships into a game with a perfectly good balance system. Perhaps you could elucidate upon this further?
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-18-2005 08:42 AM
LeaphChausew wrote:Actually, nerf is a word. We're part of an ever evolving language here.
But basically..you raise a good point. Thing is..we can sit here forever arguing the pros an cons of the rotw ships but I don't think much will be done to actually fix the problem (yet) and yeh there is a problem. We wouldn't have so many huge threads related to the rotw ships if there wasn't a problem. Everyone is making good/fair'ish points I think. Its just down to your own perspective. Hm.
Thinking about it, I'm really kind of sitting half on/half off the fence with the rotw ships. I acknowledge there are valid issues with them, but at the same time....are they 'really' causing that much hassle? From my point of view, I don't think they are on the whole.
Just how many pilots who choose to fly the JSF etc actually max them out to their full potential? Not all that many I don't think...not on Bria anyway. True there are hundreds of the things buzzing around, but...most of them are flying third rate crafted gear so in that respect, the pilot's own lack of experience kind of balances them out and makes them easier to kill with my outdated vintage A-wing. /shrug..just food for thought.
As I mentioned earlier...most if not all of these new pilots who go from heavy starter ship to JSF/RG TIE/GSF etc are missing out on a whole learning curve here, so yeh there are loads of rotw ships flying around..but are they really that uber? Maybe these rotw ships are on the whole, just letting those who otherwise wouldn't show much interest in space actually get into space and enjoy it a bit more. So a novice is harder to kill now? So what...if you claim yourself to be a good pilot or even an 'ace' this really shouldn't make too much of a difference.
The only time balancing issues come into the game are with pilots as good as or better than you who max out the JSF etc and in times like those, you either go get the same ship and do the same as them so you're ona dead par with them..or if you're like me, you accept that that pilot will probably win due to their enhanced ship and equal/better skills but...if you choose to engage them, well if you lose hey..who cares, you're in a worse ship so wave that off as an excuse [if you really need an excuse]
I also play with the naive belief/hope that any pilot worth their weight in bantha fodder will choose not to fly one of these new ships and opt to fly what they used to fly with, prior to rotw to make a point that they don't need stabilisers on their bike to fly. However saying that, I won't openly mock any pilot who chooses to make use of one of these new fangled ships.
/shrug
-Leaph
QFE
Very good arguement