Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
Isamu-alva wrote:
SOE won't nerf these ships because they are 1 time quest rewards, br>
Acutally if they wanted to, ill wager touching these ships is far easier than normal ships.
Every chassis is standard, theres no experimentation points to deal with. It keeps a control on it. Any changes they can make with these ships can probably be retroactive since each and every one is the exact same thing.
LeaphChausew wrote:
My main gripe..in fact my only gripe about ROTW from a completely personal based oppinion is that space looks silly with everyone flying just a handful of ships and new pilots are getting an easy pve ride and not actually learning much/if anything at all.
QFE.
It is most amusing outflying and outkillnig all these newfound aces in JSF's (and their NEVER in any other ship, just the JSF). Espeically when in group you hear in group, "how much mass does that tie have over a jsf?!" HAR HAR!
Message Edited by Ducimus on 07-18-2005 08:47 AM
LeaphChausew wrote:
Actually, nerf is a word. We're part of an ever evolving language here. Well, no it isnt to be pedantic but, I know what you mean. And therein lies the problem. It is better to qualify what you mean instead of using a word that is open to interpretation.
But basically..you raise a good point. Thing is..we can sit here forever arguing the pros an cons of the rotw ships but I don't think much will be done to actually fix the problem (yet)and yeh there is a problem. We wouldn't have so many huge threads related to the rotw ships if there wasn't a problem. Everyone is making good/fair'ish points I think. Its just down to your ownperspective. Hm. Yup, though tbh the fact that one of them has JEDI symbolism may cause a lot of the trouble, you know how anything jedi gets in this game
Thinking about it, I'm really kind of sitting half on/half off the fence with the rotw ships. I acknowledge there are valid issues with them, but at the same time....are they 'really' causing that much hassle? From my point of view, I don't think they are on the whole. Me, personally, Its not that much of a big deal on a day to day basis. But, on a bigger picture the new ships are game-breaking. Dont believe me, look at the compo armour on the ground and the CU that wrought!
Just how many pilots who choose to fly the JSF etc actually max them out to their full potential? Not all that many I don't think...not on Bria anyway. True there are hundreds of the things buzzing around, but...most of them are flying third rate crafted gear so in that respect, the pilot's own lack of experience kind of balances them out and makes them easier to kill with my outdated vintage A-wing. /shrug..just food for thought. I have one maxed out, its part Awing comps, Xwing comps, and new stuff, i have 4 mass left over. I took the best stuff from my other ships and put it in the JSF, Ive died twice. In 2 months, it makes PvP so boring now. But one of those crapola loaded JSFs you talk about is worth maxed out Awings. Or in my case one day, my JSF was worth a mixed bag of maxed out Opps, ADV, and Ints flown be VERY good pilots.
As I mentioned earlier...most if not all of these new pilots who go from heavy starter ship to JSF/RG TIE/GSF etc are missing out on a whole learning curve here, so yeh there are loads of rotw ships flying around..but are they really that uber? Maybe these rotw ships are on the whole, just letting those who otherwise wouldn't show much interest in space actually get into space and enjoy it a bit more. So a novice is harder to kill now? So what...if you claim yourself to be a good pilot or even an 'ace' this really shouldn't make too much of a difference. Yup ive gone back o my stock Xwing at the mo to re-up my pilot skills.
The only time balancing issues come into the game are with pilots as good as or better than you who max out the JSF etc and in times like those, you either go get the same ship and do the same as them so you're ona dead par with them..or if you're like me, you accept that that pilot will probably win due to their enhanced ship and equal/better skills but...if you choose to engage them, well if you lose hey..who cares, you're in a worse ship so wave that off as an excuse [if you really need an excuse]
or...if you do actually beat them, well be glad that you managed to beat somthing bigger than you in somthing lesser than them. Cant agree here, the balance problem is that the new ships ARENT balanced while the old ones are, that means that in a fully tricked out Awing, for example, a JSF with nowhere near as good components will out-turn, out-shoot, survive more damage, and all with a worse pilot in it. This isnt much of a problem for PvE, but in PvP these ships lack of balanceis extremely obvious. Space PvP becomes like the preCU ground game, and we REALLY dont want a space CU do we.
I also play with the naive belief/hope that any pilot worth their weight in bantha fodder will choose not to fly one of these new ships and opt to fly what they used to fly with, prior to rotw to make a point that they don't need stabilisers on their bike to fly. However saying that, I won't openly mock any pilot who chooses to make use of one of these new fangled ships.
/shrug
-Leaph
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-18-2005 08:58 AM
I think this is where old imperial pilots have a huge advantage over new JTL players and even over the other 2 pilot professions, they had to learn how to make those compromises much more so than the others. Good example being a friend of mine who has never been other than a freelance ace for the last 6 months. He got his hands on a B-22 the other night and had a hard time kitting it out with "only 90k mass" (the same is true of post-ROTW imperial pilots) whereas imperial pilots (or rebels who flew A-wings) given 90k mass are like a kid in a candy shop.
There is no question at all in my mind that these ships are unbalanced. I have a JSF, I fly it sometimes, but I will admit, it is unbalancing. People with these dont need to spend hours scouring the galaxy for good parts to RE (especially engines) because of the chassis' inherent manouverability. A-wing with 71 PYR easily being out-turned by a JSF/B22 with a crappy 61 PYR crafted engine is extremely unbalancing. Fit a RE'd lvl 8 engine with over 75 PYR in one of those as I have and it is extremely difficult to be able to out-turn them. And this is without even mentioning the tiny hitboxes on some of the ROTW ships.
The one advantage I will admit that the ROTW ships have brought is that there are far more Ace pilots out there, which means more targets in DS. Yes, most of them dont have the skills of pre-ROTW pilots, but they usually make up for it with unbalanced ROTW ships.
Also, I don't agree with the "If rebels had a JSF we wouldnt be calling for nerfs" argument. You would en up with JSF vs. JSF every time rather than the original pre-ROTW Tie vs. X-wing/A-wing feel. It kills the mood.
*cycle targets; "Ooh look a jsf, another jsf, and would you believe it, another jsf!"*
Message Edited by Eioen on 07-18-2005 05:18 PM
Message Edited by Eioen on 07-18-2005 05:19 PM
I am so tired of these "discusions". Yes, the ROTW ship are powerful, but the balace between JTL ships and ROTW ships doesn't matter. what matters is the balace between the professions. I thought it was painfully obvious, what SOE is doing with these ships. The ROTW ships are more powerful therefore everyone wants them but to get them you have to buy the expansion. This means that they can ensure that more people will buy the expansion. (BTW for those of you that get some kind of elitist kick out of not using any of these shipsbut still have ROTW... you have alredy fallen into SOE's trap so quit being a whiner and enjoy the new ships).
that being said, if you think they are going to even consider changing the new ships, you were not around during the CU. If they won't listen to large groups of people protesting (in game) then you have overinflated ego that is just taking up space on the forums.
And you yourself are taking up pointless forum space with your post. If these pilots egos are so big, do you really think they would listen to you and take your point to heart?
Eioen wrote:
Capitalism > Gameplay
And you yourself are taking up pointless forum space with your post. If these pilots egos are so big, do you really think they would listen to you and take your point to heart?
Yes and probably not.
PaceNebulon wrote:
I am so tired of these "discusions". Yes, the ROTW ship are powerful, but the balace between JTL ships and ROTW ships doesn't matter. what matters is the balace between the professions. I thought it was painfully obvious, what SOE is doing with these ships. The ROTW ships are more powerful therefore everyone wants them but to get them you have to buy the expansion. This means that they can ensure that more people will buy the expansion. (BTW for those of you that get some kind of elitist kick out of not using any of these shipsbut still have ROTW... you have alredy fallen into SOE's trap so quit being a whiner and enjoy the new ships).
that being said, if you think they are going to even consider changing the new ships, you were not around during the CU. If they won't listen to large groups of people protesting (in game) then you have overinflated ego that is just taking up space on the forums.
Hmm, tbh the ROTW ships are the JTL equivalent of ubertemplate/comp armour/stun damage, that existed on the ground and prompted the CU, therefore it would be better to deal with them now than let the problem escalate. Plus, you dont have to put BETTER loot, into an expansion to get people to buy it, just NEW loot.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
PaceNebulon wrote:
I am so tired of these "discusions". Yes, the ROTW ship are powerful, but the balace between JTL ships and ROTW ships doesn't matter. what matters is the balace between the professions. I thought it was painfully obvious, what SOE is doing with these ships. The ROTW ships are more powerful therefore everyone wants them but to get them you have to buy the expansion. This means that they can ensure that more people will buy the expansion. (BTW for those of you that get some kind of elitist kick out of not using any of these shipsbut still have ROTW... you have alredy fallen into SOE's trap so quit being a whiner and enjoy the new ships).
that being said, if you think they are going to even consider changing the new ships, you were not around during the CU. If they won't listen to large groups of people protesting (in game) then you have overinflated ego that is just taking up space on the forums.
Hmm, tbh the ROTW ships are the JTL equivalent of ubertemplate/comp armour/stun damage, that existed on the ground and prompted the CU, therefore it would be better to deal with them now than let the problem escalate. Plus, you dont have to put BETTER loot, into an expansion to get people to buy it, just NEW loot.
Besides NONE of the ground loot is better than stuff already existing, for example the proton carbine looks cool but if it was loot like the JSF/BSF it would allow you to oneshot kill people from 1000m away, just as the clone armour would allow you to permanently burst run, double your health, inventory, and damge output!
Did you read the second part of my post?
To reiterate, they are using these new ships to bring in money. So don't care what we think as long as people buy ROTW. They are not going to "fix" the new ships, so just accept it and move on. They might one day bring the JTL ships up to speed but I will believe it when it happens.
I was thinking about the general imbalance in space in general the other day. What got me there was X-Wing Alliance.
In SWG, you can get a big, bulky ship and put a nice engine in it. It'll fly like magic. You can put good armor and shields or heavy weapons on a light ship. In X-Wing Alliance, you had to pick one. You could fly a fast ship that could bob and weave and use hit and run tactics. Or you could get a heavy ship with lots of firepower and take a beating and live to tell about it. But in SWG, you don't have to pick. Everyone can have a fast, powerful ship. All depends on what you put in it. But that's based on 2 things. You either have to be lucky and loot the good stuff or you have to have the money to buy the good stuff. Not everyone has those things.
Wow, so far a pretty good discussion with some very interesting and elightening opinions. I have to admit, I didn't think that this thread would be as civil as it has been. I figured alot of people would just use the "learn to fly better" or "get one yourself" argument. Instead, it seems most of you agree that the new ROTW ships are unbalanced with the other ships in the game.
My initial post, that proposes the limitation on the level of equipment different chassis would be able to use, was only a possible solution and not something that I think should neccessarily be done. Also, I do not wish for all ships and equipment to be exactly the same but I do want each ship to fill a certain role. As it is right now, the new ships not only fit their intended role, they go way beyond it. For example, the JSF/Grievous are a small, agile fighter but they have the mass to be equipped more like a superiority style fighter(Xwing). I can't comment on the new RGI as I haven't seen anyone flying one on my server yet. This is why I proposed that equipment limitation. As it is right now, mass isn't doing the job of limiting the different ships to fit their role and their role only. If it would be more simple to reduce the mass on the new ships, then so be it and I would be happy with that.
I hardly fly my JSF and Grievous anymore as I feel it makes both PVE and PVP too easy and I spend most of my time in the Heavy Xwing and Awing. Like Leaph, I like to fly these other ships for the challenge they present, especially when flying against someone in the JSF/Grievous. Sure, it puts me at a disadvantage, but it makes me a better pilot and that should be the goal of everyone out there. I can deal with these new ships and if nothing is ever changed, so be it. However, for the sake of JTL, I would hope that something is done to balance out the new ships to bring them inline withthe older ships. I don't mean for them to be nerfed to oblivion and make them exactly the same. I just mean make it so they aren't overpowering like they are now.
Message Edited by Toszik on 07-18-2005 02:43 PM
Ok, thought of a different way some of the ships could be changed instead of limiting the level of equipment. Again, these will only be examples of a possible solution and only a few ships as I can't comment on all of them as I haven't flown them myself or haven't flown against them.
Heavy Xwing - Keep the mass the same but adjust the chassis YPR modifiers so it handle somewhere in between theregularXwing and the Ywing. The way it is right now, it makes no sense to fly the regular Xwing. The heavy version handles the same, but has the mass to load out like a bomber/assault style ship. Being that it has extra mass, it shouldn't handle as well as its' lighter version.
JSF/Grievous: - Reduce the mass to be inline with that of the other light fighters(Awing, Interceptor etc) but keep everything else the same. This way they still have incredible manueverability and small profiles, but cant be equipped beyond what they should be.
I am not sure about the other ships and I am sure something could be done with them as well and maybe someone with better knowledge of them can comment on that. I do remember seeing someone saying that the heavy variants of the starter ships should be moved up higher in the pilot profession and I thought that was a pretty good idea.
Message Edited by Toszik on 07-18-2005 02:58 PM
1.) People are going to fight any reduction in ROTW ships tooth and nail. Personnaly i think these ships make the game too easy, removes a level of challenge in outfitting ships, and well, people like being on easy street. Trying to rationalize why these ships are over the top is much akin to taking candy away from a kid in candy shop and telling him he has to leave the store.
2.) Only reason why the ROTW ships are over the top is because they have excessive mass as compared to ships of the orginal JTL game.
3.) Its like these ships came from two different games. Theres this game called JTL, and then theres this game called ROTW. The ships from these two different games don't mesh very well. The scale is different. Sony needs to pick one and stick with it. My vote is for the JTL version of ships. If we go the ROTW ship route,the history of the ground game will repeat itself in space. Garunteed the game will be screwed over in the long term when a space CU hits us in the face.