Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
Feyne brings up an entirely different problem in terms of balancing the game, and that's trying to argue what should be in the Star Wars Universe and what shouldn't. I think you've got some valid points, other than the fact that I think the devs should lean towards fun instead of pinpoint accuracy. I remember them saying (and man, do I ever wish I'd saved this quote) before launch that the game would start relatively accurate and slowly drift away as it evolved.
Of course, I'm not sure what course we're on now.
I don't understand. Sure the JSF / B22 are strong, but no one says anything about the RGI. The RGI is clearly the most broken of all the new fighters. The thing is impossible to hit, even the AI can't hit the thing, I took out a tier 5 gunboat, and did not even have to use cap to shield shunt once, something I cannot do in a JSF or B22. Just my 2 cents. As for the JSF and the B22, all I'd have to say is, if the game was true to the movies, Vader is an idiot for flying an advanced in ANH instead of the JSF!
I would like for everyone to calm down. Take a good look at SWG, SOE has made the game (and the expansion) for new players. They have had no reguard for those that have played the game for 2 years. Space is no different.
Kirsha - Kettemoor
KaylBreinhar wrote:
And I disagree - I see these discussions as an attack on the very nature of the Piloting profession, led in large part by people who wish to standardize the gameplay until we're all equally screwed and space is one large goddamned zone with everyone having the same abilities and equipment. While some may have completely valid reasons for calling for the "adjustment" of a specific chassis, at the basest heart of the "discussions" are underlying mechanics leading from envy and a desire to "get even."
Gee, that sounds a lot like the ground game right now. I wonder if there's a correlation?
The only problem I have with the ROTW ships is Shipwrights were not brought into the loop involving their manufacture, which brings in ANOTHER underlying element - vindictiveness.
I'll adapt regardless of the outcome - I made do with 65k mass for six months straight. But I'll be damned if I'm going to give up something I've grown fond of simply because it's easier to call for its nerfing rather than learning to adapt yourselves.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-17-2005 05:23 AM
I agree with the original poster and I do agree with you Kaylexcept fora couple ofthings.
I'm an experienced pilot, even considered by many to be an 'Ace'. I make use of my65k mass Awing just fine, even agins good pilots in 'better' ships on good days.I don't need to get even with anyone to be honest on my server because well, I just don't..not because I'm particularly awesome, but I'm at a high enough level where I just don't feel the need to. I respect those aroundme, there are those not as goo as me, those as good as me and a couple better than me and I don't care...I fly what I fly inorder to improve and you could say I fly with an intentional handicap for fun, but I do think the only way you could ever achieve 'totally fair pvp etc' would be in standardisation of all parts and ships,...
HOWEVER.
That'd screw over the s/w prof and remove a major part of the pilot prof from this game [looting] so would be pointless. Also, this is a MMORPG so space needs that aspect to it...standardisation would never work so ignore the above. 
Another point. Life/the universe/JTLS/Other pilots/Next door's pet Wookie...aren't fair...they're not supposed to be perfectly fair and thats part of the game...You need an imbalance in order for that drive to be 'better' and to improve to exist. Life/this game is all about tipping the balance in a vain attempt to balance it. The catch is..you never will perfectly achieve this, hence it being a vain attempt. [A wise man ona mountain told me that]
However again...I do think the new rotw ships do need some tweaking. Par example...From what I've read about the JSF..It -is- supposed to be amazing BUT, its drawback [according to canon] is it has high energy drain on the weapon systems so it requires a pilot [like a Jedi] in order to make every shot count. This doesn't happen ingame and it shouldnt either [just think of the abusive spamming then... ] but 'somthing' needs to be done and I think some kind of limiter on the parts woold be good or, bringing down it's mass? If I can do well in a 65k mass A-wing..then say a 70/75k mass JSF would still give it an 'edge' perhaps, but would make it less ridiculously uber'ified and would prevent the uber unbalancing but maintaining the potential to be rather ace still.
That...or just make these new ROTW ships [bar the heavy t1 variants] MUCH harder to acquire maybe? I got my Advanced X-wing a couple of hours after Bria went live with ROTW on my own with little hassle. I wouldn't mind having to re-earn that ship if they did decide to make it a much harder quest.
I also really do think the RG TIE's hitbox needs making bigger. My reasons are these.
1. It's an RG 'Better' Squint simply because of the horrifying redness and it's 80k mass and r,p,y acc which is slightly better than my good ol' A. [If they made A-wings equivelent, Id probably not stop laughing maniacally for a month]
2.The RG TIE is the only ship with a hitbox smaller than itself.I don't see why it deserves thiswhenother's don't regardless of it's regal status. It is RoyalGuardy enough already. Plus...it's a ship particularly reserved for the Empire's most elite. Elite shouldn't need a 'hitbox modifier' on their ships. They'd do just as well with a standard squint hitbox.
3.I pvp'ed against alot of these and have had to repeatedly score hits on people several times before scoring damage. Now a hit is a hit..I'm not talking about those 'lucky glancing blows' here..I'm talking about smacking those solar panels etc obviously...now I'm sorry but a ray shield is a ray shield. It is projected in a squircle around the body it protects....when you hit it..it should get damaged andthen if you hit an unshielded substance with a laser bolt [nce that shield i down]...it should recieve damage too...not just register it as nothing.
The amount of times I had toexplain to miffed Rebel pilots about the hitbox on the RG TIE being much smaller than the chassis itself,is ridiculous. Most of the time they've thought their adversery [even if the rebel won..so not as a bad loser] was exploiting because their hits didn't damage the shields for a long time [I've had to bail a number of my Imperial RG TIE pilot friends out of these accusations before and its getting annoying]. This can causegriefing which is bad [Dumicus having being a reciever of the prior mentioned accusations or at least I got the flak and I righted the wrongly accuser]. In fact..I don't condone it at all, but the RG TIE..well it is like fighting against a ship with exploited shields to be perfectly honest and I can see where those who complained saying that,are coming from totally.I don't want to be the one to cause a forum war here, but I wouldn't be surprised if these new ROTW ships did cause some people to be tempted to exploit in order to beat them or even beat their rivals wth similar skill/ships etc. I mean..I don't even know where to begin with various, previously mentioned in other thread' exploits and would NEVER do it myself. Hell..I have a Grievous but favour my A-wing out of sheer stubbornessso why would I? But I think it is a valid point to make and I think have a point when a single ship causes otherwise respected pilots...which are also friends of mine to be demeaned in that childish manner.
As a disclaimer...I got nothing really against the RG TIE overly much and nothing whatsoever against those who fly them as they stand now even with their 'A-wingonsteroids and then some stats'. I'm not crying nerf here, I'm requesting adjustment for all of our sakes.
Message Edited by LeaphChausew on 07-17-2005 07:12 PM
Nerfing anything is the last thing they should do. If anything ships taht arent supposed to have shields shouldnt have them. Space PvP is already not real star wars stuff because it consits of two ships looking right at each other until someone with a faster small ship gets 1 shot in on someone. If anything the flight models of all ships need overhauling and then we could judge what is too good and what isn't. Never in a star wars movie do you ever see what PvP combat has become.
tehre are rare instances where actual flying is involved though rather than who has the better engines and ship
Aaahhh much better. Thanks for the replies so far.
Attacca, I like your ideas and I agree that the new ships aren't unbeatable, but like you said, where do they go from here? I agree that reducing the mass on the JSF/Grievous and/or reducing it to one hardpoint would be fine and leave the rest the same. I too, wish that alot of the bugs will get fixed and hopefully soon.
Voodez, I can understand not wanting to nerf the new ships and just bring the old ships up to par, but I think that would make things too crazy. I agree, nerfing isn't always the best option and it uspets many people, myself included. However, if they improve the older ships to bring them inline with the newer ones, then they will become overpowered in PVE. As it is right now, PVE is trivial at best and I would really like to have that aspect of the game more challenging too.
Anyways, thanks for the responses and keep em coming
i know what your saying toszik, so i would therefore suggest the same statincreaseto all correspondingnpc ships...
I am as tired as anybody of seeing ships which dont really belong in this time period being used everywhere, and want to see x-wing/a-wings vs TIE's again, but ijust cant see the merit in reducing the fun and speed (that the new ships have given us)of the gameto accomplish this. Anyway, will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Message Edited by Voodez on 07-17-2005 08:57 PM
...we all knew more mass was coming. Look how many times it's been done in the past.
The Dunelizard, 65k to 85k, in response to b*tching and moaning.
The Oppressor, ~140k (IIRC) to 170k, in response to b*tching and moaning.
The Firespray, 190 (IIRC) to 220k, in response to...well, you get the idea...and boy, that one pissed off early KSE adopters...
...SOE wasn't unbalancing the game in introducing these ships, they were cutting out the middleman and trying to avoid having to change it later, because they knew the throngs of incoming nugget pilots were going to flood the forums with "OMG THIS IS TOO F*!(&@# HARD" posts...
And as we've seen as of late, their forward thinking still didn't save us from THAT, either.
EDIT: I still think 75% of these posts would've never been authored had SOE just made two different versions of the JSF - the Eta-2 for Imperials, and the Delta-7 for Rebels.
Somehow I think all would've been mostly right and good with the world had it been done that way. Call it a hunch.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-18-2005 04:54 AM
ShoginArmada wrote:Argeed, if the rebels got the toher type of jsf then no one but the freelancers would whine..but they go their own new ship so i doubt they would whine much anyways. But then if they got a JSF of their own..id want a ARC for imps
If rebels really want a JSF that badly then go imp for a few days (your friendly local smuggler can sort out faction), get the quest to obtain the JSF deed (bring a freelance or imp friend along for the space part), drop imp, re-grind rebel pilot.
Same for the ARC for imperials just the opposite way around.