Pilot Archive
Thread: Deep Space is like this?
Zade_Taerin
Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:09 am
#27
Don't use "Target Closest Enemy", use "Target next player" (L by default). If the player is Imperial it will be obvious since he'll be in a Tie Variant or a Decimator. If he's Neutral with Imperial then it's a matter of looking at your radar when he comes in to range to see if he isa red dot (can't remember if the Imperial symbol shows up in the background of the player craft display, I've had instinces where Imperial Overt PC's have and have not had the symbol in the background). "Target Closest" only gives you information on the closest... "Target next player" will let you cycle through all of the players in range (rougly 3.5k). You'll want to know if you are facing one or more opposing players.
WTS
Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:38 am
#28
Ramona_Garcia wrote:If we had 5-7 hit kills you'd almost never kill a skilled pilot with shunt cap to shield 4.
i agree with this. i think 2-3 hits is all it should take... otherwise, i'd just keep shunting to shields every 15 seconds.
also.... i make sure i'm searchable, and frequenly even message my victims in deep space before i attack. blowing someone up before they even knows what happened is quite unsatisfying.... it is much more fun to take on a pilot who knows you are coming.
:-)
1st_Viduus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:41 am
#29
quadpers0n wrote:
once players realize that other players want to shoot them down and don't want to send them tells in advance notifying them of that fact everyone will enjoy space pvp much more.
it's not all luck, the only people who say that are people who lose. if i manuver into position to fire on you, aim, fire and hit you, that's not luck, not unless i had my eyes closed the whole time. it's called aim.
not all fights last 1 second either, most people fly big ships that are easy to hit, thus they die fast. changing damage is not going to alter that whatsoever.
equipment does make a difference, albeit slight. in my oppressor i have gone up against countless lighter fighters who cannot fit a lvl 9+ gun on their ship and survived a direct hit. i have also survived several glances that only knocked out half my shields.equipment also can make you move more like a light fighter, always an advantage.
people need to check their pride at the door and realize that everyone dies. we have a plethora of players who think they want to be the undefeated undying ace but it's just not going to happen. it won't happen with decreased damage limits or some other crazy notification that a player is bearing down on your six. just map "cycle next enemy" to your joystick, get out there and have fun.
and ask for bigger shields for MP ships. the one instance PVP damage is rediculous is in their case.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 01-31-2005 12:58 PM
"the people that say that are the people that lose"...? No, someone came up behind me while I was fighting a vette and her B,A, & Y wing escort, I came back and took him AND his buddy out (x and a wings) and BOTH of them saw my oppressor coming - half an hour before my post.
if i manuver into position to fire on you, aim, fire and hit you, that's not luck, not unless i had my eyes closed the whole time. it's called aim. If you start juking and shooting wild, holding down your trigger, while you come flying at me (in either advanced or oppressor), just mashing the trigger and pointing in my general direction and land 1 hit, then where was the skill? There is none.
equipment does make a difference, albeit slight. in my oppressor i have gone up against countless lighter fighters who cannot fit a lvl 9+ gun on their ship and survived a direct hit. i have also survived several glances that only knocked out half my shields.equipment also can make you move more like a light fighter, always an advantage. Yes, you have a point here, but it's definitely more common the other way around.
people need to check their pride at the door and realize that everyone dies. we have a plethora of players who think they want to be the undefeated undying ace but it's just not going to happen. it won't happen with decreased damage limits or some other crazy notification that a player is bearing down on your six. just map "cycle next enemy" to your joystick, get out there and have fun.
I refuse to let SOE have the idea that I find PvP in space fun as it stands.
First of all there's no reason whatsoever player and npc damage should be so different.
Secondly, if something is such a huge threat that it can do what even a corvette or the rebel station cannot and kill me in 1 shot, then yes, we DO need to be able to differentiate it on the radar. Not asking for bells whistles announcements and a tap on the shoulder. A simple Yellow Box around the Red Dot would suffice -- the pilot still needs to be paying attention.
And being killed in 1 hit with 2555 shields F/R and 1100 armor F/R is completely rediculous. PERIOD.
First of all there's no reason whatsoever player and npc damage should be so different.
Secondly, if something is such a huge threat that it can do what even a corvette or the rebel station cannot and kill me in 1 shot, then yes, we DO need to be able to differentiate it on the radar. Not asking for bells whistles announcements and a tap on the shoulder. A simple Yellow Box around the Red Dot would suffice -- the pilot still needs to be paying attention.
And being killed in 1 hit with 2555 shields F/R and 1100 armor F/R is completely rediculous. PERIOD.
The only reason I PvP at all is because loot and fp farming is best done in Deep Space, where there are so many targets I have to leave when I need to go to the can, else they just keep coming....
Andno I don't expect to be undefeated. I get ganked every now and then, and sometimes i even lose a straight up 1v1 fight. So what. I win more than I lose, and I still find PvP sucks. Doesn't much matter what you map to your joystick.
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:14 am
#30
So they are pointing in your direction, firing, and it's just button mashing? Right. how come they are pointed in your direction? Why aren't you behind them if they are so unskilled? Why aren't you pointed at them and hitting them first if they are so unskilled?
Do you really need a indication on the radar when the radar only displays up to 2048m but you can detect players with a mapped joystick button at 3000m? Ask to be coddled more I guess, I don't find it necessary.
It's telling that the majority of your complaints stem from being surprised while fighting a mob looking for grinding loot.
There are a few reasons why NPC damage is different than PC damage
To overcome limitations in coding NPC AI they have to compensate by giving npc's better equipment. I don't agree wtih the decision to do this, but the only alternative to increase difficulty would be to increase ship numbers, something that's not possible when a variety of player's computer systems come into play. Perfect and awesome NPC AI is a pipe dream.If we did the same damage as NPC's fights would never end, players would cap to shield stunt, fly around in circles for hours and be able to hyperspace away from any engagement. If they wouldn't be able to do this, they'd be dying in a salvo of shots, which is what is happening now. Which do you prefer?
What players like yourself are essentially asking for is a one or two shot leeway to make up for the fact you don't see players coming. It's not about dueling or dogfighting because both of those are present in the game currently. The only scenario when someone "spams" shots and wins comes from either you being oblivious OR making a mistake and getting turned on. What you are essentially saying is "I'd like to be able to make a few mistakes in the air, because the game's pace is too quick." I suggest using a ship with a smaller hitbox, and not letting people on your six instead of recommending a new system that could have dramatic unintended effects on PVP, especially when you admit you only PVP because Deep Space offers you the best chance to loot. I've been in many fights in space and I have been surprised by someone only once. It was my mistake, I readily admitted it and I have not made the same mistake since. Likely I will eventually, and I'll take responsibilty for it. Likewise, when someone points their ship at me and blows me out of the sky, I don't lament being destroyed in one hit, I lament letting them point their guns in my direction. This is the real difference between your request and my assertion that it is absurd.
That being said, there's no real reason players should be spamming shots like that anyway, blame the bugged WCO3 command and ask for it fixed, don't argue for a mechanic when you have no idea how it will end up playing out in game.
Else-Whira
Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:32 am
#31
I have never been attacked by surprise as a pilot.
It's just not possible. We have a command to target the closest enemy ship and a command to search the section of space we are in for other players (/who).
If you aren't using these commands while flying in deep space, you aren't a good enough pilot to be there and be overt.
It's just not possible. We have a command to target the closest enemy ship and a command to search the section of space we are in for other players (/who).
If you aren't using these commands while flying in deep space, you aren't a good enough pilot to be there and be overt.
1st_Viduus
Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:58 am
#32
1 or 2 shots leeway sounds fair to me when I have 3650 protection per side on the oppressor and 2500 per side on the advanced.
Smaller hitbox? There isn't one smaller than the advanced, as you should know, being an imperial pilot. Advanced and Interceptor are the same size. The only player ship with a smaller profile is the A-Wing, which I obviously can't fly.
NPC's have better equipment? Then why does my paired guns hit for over 7000 damage at max after shield/armor mods and 25% reduction?
People get the drop on me, and I've gotten the drop on people, and TBH all it does is ruin the game experience. It's not "fun" in any way shape or form. If you run around trying to get the drop on people and think it's fun there's a word for you: ganker.
When it's one person complaining about something, it's a complaint. When a relative percentage of willing PvPers is less than 5% of the player base, it's a problem, not a complaint. So if then half of the PvPers feel the way you do, what does that tell you?
And btw your radar goes to 8km, but will actually only spot anything in 2-3km depending on server load/lag. You can sit there smacking your L button all you want, it takes 8 seconds to cover the distance required to pick someone off. When fighting 20+ ai in a serious hairball you can spam L all you want... if someone is comin for you you're gonna get it if they hit range after you've engaged.
Maybe you didn't really read my post completely... I win more than I lose, my fellow imperial.Even the wins are anti-climactic. I take no pride or glory in one-shotting another player, or in my 19-3 record... I do it only because it's "kill or be killed". The PvP setup is rediculous, period.Try torealise that you're in the minority in liking it the way it is, and drop the attitude; if you weren't you would find TONS of people ready to go all over space; going overt would become the norm for probably half the pilots out there, at any tier, if not more. These forums are filled with "PvP sucks" threads and have been since launch - the only reason they're less frequent now is because people have given up on being heard and already moved on. Find me a "Wow PvP rocks!" thread... I challenge you... (and making one in response doesn't count).
"To overcome AI limitations".... I have no problem with the AI setup for absorbing damage. They should be hitting for the same as players though, or players should be hitting for the relative same as the AI. Maybe a little harder for players with "uber" equipment. So an Oppressor with my gun setup would hit about as hard as a gunboat... meaning if I want the kill "one lucky shot" won't cut it, I would need to stay on target for 2 or 3 consecutive hits... and that, my friend, would take more skill than one shot in my direction that happened to land. More skill than some pilots have. You are still assuming I'm at the losing end -- drop that assumption. Don't assume either that I get my kills that way... I did enjoy one kill once, he saw me coming and stillI came to within 75m of the pilot that had ganked me earlier and shot him plain straight in the cockpit. That was the one kill I enjoyed.
And yes, the DI Progs are BS, on this we can agree.
With WO3 bugged, Cap Never Drains, and you can Cap->Shield as many times as you need to... but that's irrelevant if you get hit for 7k damage in one hit now isn't it? The real problem now is that to make PvP viable, a true balance isn't possible, they'd need to go on with more *damage reductions* which is also stupid, as well as fix the programs. But in either case a balance should be able to be reached. 2-3 shots sounds good to me. If I want to die in 1 shot I'll put on 1200 f/r shields that have WAY lower mass just to cover me from the stupid AI, THEN i'd deserve a 1-shot death.
Satch_of_GL
Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:27 am
#33
1st_Viduus wrote:8. Just gotta throw my $0.02 in on that one... : "PvP is more realistic..." bah, humbug. That's completely irrelevant first of all, and secondly, "realistic" compared to what? Don't go WWII-ing me, they didn't have shields in WWII. Or armor for that matter, unless you count the firewall that protected *most* of a pilots back.
The movies? Riiiight, the one where Luke takes 4 hits in the rear while he has all shields forward and still doesn't go boom? Or the one where everyone that isn't a hero dies in 1 or 2 shots..? The movies play it both ways, so you can't use that either. Face it, it's a game, a Science Fiction game, and realism has very little to do with it.
Having spent years playing Warbirds I, II, & III plus many other flight sims, and having some expertise with real world aircraft - I love the way you can stop dead in space and not turn unless you have the ether flowing over your wings. The model sucks, but it's a game. JTL is the only thing that kept me from going back to Warbirds (may go anyway), I hope they can fix the model enough to make it possible for the newbee's to play and make it interesting for the Falcon players.
quadpers0n
Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:38 am
#34
Again with the 5% of the player base, you mind explaining where you got that number from? Anecdotal evidence? The die hard anti-PVP'ers warcry based on a year and a half old forum poll. Just like your supposition that all PVP ends in one hit and there's never any dogfighting. annecdotal.
Radar does NOT go up to 8km. you are actually dead wrong. What does go up to 8km is the detection range for larger ships, like corvettes and the rebel space station, and occasionally ships you have already seen will remain visible past 4km.
However the RADAR, in which you said you would like to see a visible difference between ship graphics only displays up to 2048. So requesting that you have a visible indicator on the thing when you can already detect players up to 3km away is inane.
The fact that you take no pleasure in any of your wins just goes to show how little you PVP. I don't take pride in blowing someone unaware out of the sky either, but I've had PLENTY of fights where a dogfight lasting more than 5 seconds ensued and it was fun as hell. I don't need to find a post talking about how fun PVP is because I hear it from people all the time in game. Find me a ton of posts talking about how fun the GCW is. Does that automatically mean 95% of the playerbase shuns PVPs out of protest? No.
People don't PVP because of time constraints, imbalances favoring powergamers, flat out not liking competition between players and lack of reason to do so. "Fixing" PVP would not suddenly fill the skies with pilots looking for action. If that were the case you'd see plenty of people loading up level 5 weapons and making a game of it out there. People don't do that though, why not? Because people realize the skill it takes not to die in one hit, but they go back to the ground because there's no incentive or reward whatsoever..
But if you dislike 1 hit kills and it gives you no joy then by all means, load up a second level 5 gun on your oppressor and turn that into your PVP gun. You'll feel rewarded for your kills finally, since you are always the victor you'll have a case for saying PVP under that system will be much more fun, then you can move on to disagreeing with people's position that it will turn the game into a powergamers equipment paridise. If you are 19-3 then you should probably be able to do real well with guns that reflect the range of hits you want combat to have.When I want to have fun PVP'ing I load up my intercerceptor. What kind of gun do I use? A level 5. So it takes me a few shots to kill someone. I'm also fully aware my 1000k shields will likely get me killed in one hit. The system you desire is already in the game for you to play. By your logic people should be flocking to PVP then.
As for the hitbox sizes, I was under the impression the regular Ties and Inteceptor hit boxes were all smaller than the other ships. However I'm going to assume you are right on that, despite being wrong about everything else, simply because I don't know for a fact they are smaller.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-01-2005 09:46 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-01-2005 09:46 AM
LostCityCorrespondent
Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:30 am
#35
Else-Whira wrote:
I have never been attacked by surprise as a pilot.
It's just not possible. We have a command to target the closest enemy ship and a command to search the section of space we are in for other players (/who).
If you aren't using these commands while flying in deep space, you aren't a good enough pilot to be there and be overt.
wow, your arrogance is amazing. if you get the time, please write out all of your rules for what we should and shoudln't be good enough to do, let's see if we can make everyone come up to your standards.
IL-Vec
Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:50 am
#36
sumner wrote:
First thing to do before going to DS is bind target closest hostile player (or something like that). It id shift tab by default (or was it ctrl tab) I put it to my space bar and make sure I smack it about every 10 seconds, if there isn't a hostile player in scan range (seems tobe about 2500m) then it just stays on your target.
Situational awareness is your most powerfull weapon in space. You can have the best shields, armor, and weapons in the game, but if your flying around and have no idea what is around you consider yourself dead! The idea is to make sure you know about the other guy before he knows about you...even better is if he doesn't know about you until he explodes
Also, you without a doubt ran into a another player, the tier V NPCs in DS are no tougher than the ones in Kessel, the only other thing that might kill you that fast is a Corvette, but I doubt you got that close to one without knowing it.
never thought to bind it to another key but also a 6 gunship set spawning next to him could do it
FYI on more populated servers don't go alone
IL-Vec
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:05 pm
#37
1st_Viduus wrote:
Well.... lots if opinion and misinformation (and lack of it) in this thread... let me add my own.
1. Oppressor is viable for PvP. Depends who is flying it and what you put in it.
just about anything can be viable to an experienced pilot
3. If you are using crafted weapons you had best leave, you won't be killing anyone. They doabouthalf thedamage ofRE'd guns of same min/max stats.(I'm a MSW as well btw).
if you have the mass the tier 4 reward gun RE'd is AWESOME sine 13.1 drain WO4'd still isn't too bad
7. Droid programs are a must -- but knowing your ship and equipment are also. You with the 103.7 speed engine... you're just asking for death. Your PYR is so low that watching you turn is like watching a feather drop. Get yourself some looted stuff and save up 30 engines if you have to to max out the PYR stats.
personally I use a lvl 8 RE'd PYR 71.6/74.1/72.1 spd 93 EO3 or 4 depending on Awing or Xwing I'm in
I'm sure there's a million other things I could add, but really those are the most important things to consider... note I said consider, not take as gospel. Every situation is different, and every ship and pilot have different strengths to bolster and weaknesses to cover, so not everything here applies to everyone.Ain't that the truth
But it's a start.
also my PvP experience is limited from lvling 3 pilots but I can still voice a mildy experienced opinion
Eaca
Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:07 pm
#38
1st_Viduus wrote:
Then why does my paired guns hit for over 7000 damage at max after shield/armor mods and 25% reduction?
Ok, with those guns how many hits should it take you to kill somebody in an A-Wing? 2? 3? 4? If it takes 4 hits for you to kill somebody in an A-Wing with those gun, about the most effective gun you can get on an A-Wing is an RE'd borstel, which is going to hit for about a max of 2500 damage in a hit. Add your much larger shields on top of more armor and heavier components, and the A-Wing now has to hit you 15-18 times to take you out. You just became invincible. Even just TWO hits for you to take out an a-wing is 7-8 hits for them to take you out.
Message Edited by Eaca on 02-01-2005 11:42 AM