Pilot Archive
Thread: I hate them because I care
Alarien wrote:
"Our knowledge and technology doubles every year, why would it be different then. Technology has no limits, really."
Yeah, but everything has ceilings that have to break, if they can be broken. The speed of ongoing computer technology has finally ground down to something manageable. Remember 1998-2003? You'd buy a computer and it would be out of date before you got it home from the store, as would all its parts. Much of what is good now, was around and good within the last year and a half.
Its not unreasonable to guess that after that amount of development time, things would slow down a tad, heh.
There are always caps on progression. Materials science, laws of physics all impose limits on how far and how fast we can progress, and its not always that easy.
Consider, computer chips were supposedly going to double in power every 18 months till we hit the silicon limit at about 15 GHz, which should have been (at the time) 15 years. Processors were around 2GHz at the time and every few months saw a newer and faster chip launched. Last I saw, processor technology hasn't significantly progressed beyond 4GHz in several years. Current system architecture can't effectively handle the demands. Even short of the theoretical optimum of the science, we've hit a wall.
Its possible for a society to reach a level of technology and plateau substantially for a good long time. There are societal factors which in some areas retard progress. Take genetic manipulation and cloning (VERY canon issue here). Sciences which could blow through medical barriers like a lightsaber through gauze, but moral and ethical considerations hold back the floodgate.
If you think about space travel, the most advanced spacecraft flying now, (The SSTS, Soyuz, Shen Zhou) all fly using the same principles that the first ballistic missles used when Oberth and Goddard lofted their first fireworks scale rockets in their back yard.
you know its a really interesting question "how should the pre ROTW ships be balanced?".
say you increase the mass on a tie advanced to 95-115k, it's optimum turn is still at 90%(ish). so now you can fit some decent guns on there, and a digustingly high YPR engine but the hitbox is still the same size and it doesn't have the manuverability advantage that the IGI has because it's turning at 90% throttle.
increasing mass would make all the old ships more viable for PVE, and definately make them more competitive for PVP but would people still fly the JSF because of hitbox and chassis ypr values?
I know everyone hates a nerf, but I'd prefer the ROTW ships to be nerfed rather then the pre-ROTW ships to be improved. This is because pre-ROTW I thought the balance was great. By improving the ships you're opening up a whole new can of worms here, the whole mechanics as we know it change because the norm in terms of speed, maneuverability, damage output, defense, and everything else, are now different from how they used to be. Combat could become too fast paced, or it could become slower, or it could simply become too easy. The current PvE game is balanced for pre-ROTW ships, by upgrading them not only do you throw those ships off, but you throw the PvE game off now too.
Because personally I believe, and I think it'd be hard to argue differently, all the pre-ROTW ships were viable for PvE. In fact, they're too viable. PvE is far too easy across theboard. It's just the ROTW ships are even more viable then anything else we've seen before.
Though, it'd be great to see flight speed up to give us more of a feeling that we're in a starfighter, but I'll take that loss. It'd be much easier and take much less development time and there's a lot less room for new issues to be createdby balancingthe 6 ROTW ships rather then balance every other ship out there.
Message Edited by Feynan on 07-12-2005 01:19 PM
Coran_Sienar wrote:
The devs did mention bringing up the stats of our old fighters to be comparable to the new.
I still don't understand how the stats could have been so (let's face it) unbalanced for the new fighters. It's the same dev team as for JtL, right?
/sigh. More and more it becomes inescapable that the devs have no clue. Everything about this game is becoming the quick fix, for devs and for players alike. Any sort of challenge and risk is being eroded away in favour of lowering the bar more and more.
As for the arguments of movie canon etc, that's all good, but this is a game first, and it requires balance to be fun. This involves breaking some canon rules, ie, hyperspace and shields on TIEs, YTs that fly like a bathtub (try and avoid an asteroid like Han in ESB lol).
Fact is actually, it's not the same Dev team that did JtL. Even if it was, that's still no reason. Development teams change a lot, especially after a product is released (though with expansions not so much as the original game, ie. after SWG:AED was released much of the team was either dropped or left, but after JtL and ROTW I believe the majority was just brought back into the fold).
Even if it was though, I guarantee that none of the developers have anywhere near as much knowledge of the game as we do, simply because most don't play the game, or at least not to the degree we do.
My guess would be the problem would be upper management, or the way the team is run. A_Developer_12 doesn't have to know every little thing about the game, they can't really, they don't have as much time to play this game as we do because they're spending their time making it. However, all those changes should be going through someone who does know every little thing about the game. I've never understood why Dev teams wouldn't bring on a group of volunteers who, under a strict NDA, they use to field all ideas before they go into development. Test Center is used somewhat like this, however by the time it hits TC it's already been created, the time has already been spent, and the Devs don't want to go back and completely redo it, so big problems aren't fixed. They need to be fixed at the core of the problem, when they're in the design phase.
SWG has a great group of Correspondants, why can't the Dev team use them? Hate to say it but, make being a Correspondant much stricter, with a legal NDA that could cause the person a lot of problems if they squealed. And then just throw everything past them as its being designed, get their input, and keep them in the loop. I'm willing to bet Tomo, if he was involved in the designing and developing process, would have noticed that the ROTW ships seemed out of whack stat-wise, and he also would have known that the majority of players would like to keep the realism in terms of the timeline and that Clone War era ships should be used more for show or as a trophy then as full-fledged combat ships. They should be usable in combat, no doubt, but not the best.
SheenaBrelya wrote:
I'm getting entirely too close to chewing out people in game. It's not their fault entirely, as I feel I share some of the blame (since it would be me doing the chewing out) as well as SOE because their choices have me at a loss of understanding. I even like the people, too... well, most of them.
LucasArts wanted space flight in their Star Wars MMO, I game content decision that only makes sense. It was part of the original design docs, as far as I know, and was kept low priority while the ground game was fleshed out. I would agree that finishing the elite professions, and adding mounts, vehicles, and player cities all took priority.
In the end, though, we got space flight. I would be happy to go on the record to say that "They did good." It is not X-Wing vs TIE fighter, nor should it be. It is not XWA, nor should it be. Content is provided for the basics, but (as feels proper to me in such an open ended MMO) in general the system provides the tools to make your experience "yours alone."
The ships we were given worked pretty well. The three factions had diffent toys, but the toys were all pretty much on the same scale of (speed and manueverability) inverse to (offense and defense through Mass).
There was a hitch, though, when the Krayt heavy gunship was introduced. Suddenly the Frelancers were not only given the second most powerful single person ship in the game, but also the ability to make it a two person craft, and the flight handling that almost rivaled a medium fighter! We adjusted, and not everyone flocked to it, but the effect of making certain other ships obsolete was undeniable. Ships with less mass and worse handling were left by the wayside as this (relatively) nimble behemoth pushed them aside, with only a few light fighters standing fast in the datapads of those pilots who preferred them.
Space combat went on, and we enjoyed it. On any given trip through space, it would be possible to see a variety of different ships being flown, and each one said something different about its pilot. The A-Wing zipping around, the X-Wings in the think of action, and the B-Wings loaded down with heavy ordnance all had their place.
Ahh, it is to be no more. Now certainly, there are a variety of ships that can be seen on any given trip through space. There are half a dozen or more ships that are popular and common, but none seen now that were available before Kashyyyk entered our lives.
JSFs; B22s; Crimson TIEs; heavy Scyks, Z95s, and TIEs; heavy X-Wings; Vaksais - these ships are no longer compromises, they no longer say a little something about their pilots, and they no longer create a situation where the chassis you choose truly has an effect on the components you equip or tactics you are forced to use.
As we experienced these ships, we were amazed. Taking that JSF out for its first spin was magical, as the ship seemed to be almost everything we could want in a fighter. Then the truth seeped in - these ships *did* have everything we could want, and *that* was the problem. No more TIE Interceptors or Advanced patroling the space lanes or A-Wings and X-Wings coming up to challenge them. No more Dunelizards making appearances on both sides. No more changing chassis more than once from Novice to Master, as the heavy ____ turns great and can handle top of the line equipment from the bottom of the path to the top.
An X-Wing vs a TIE variant? Only if it's a heavy X-Wing and a Crimson TIE. Dunelizards popping up to help each side? Higher mass, smaller size, quicker turning ships will simply tear them to shreds. Want a new ship? Many are more likely looking to cross server trading of reward items than what a Shipwright can provide.
Many people had many various issues with the "good old days," I'll never deny that. What this influx of "ideal" ships has given us, though, is the removal of the tactical considerations of chassis choice when it came to pilot skill, flight style preference, and mission target. Do we even still need our wonderful new ship slots now that we can create a single ship that will handle any situation?
I hate them, the added choices we have been given, because they have removed the choices we had. Welcome to Rage of the Wookiees... buy it or don't bother flying.
I hate them because I care about space combat.
Shona Bre'lya
Valcyn Galaxy
77th Wing Training Officer
Im more or less agreed with you totally. Im pretty sure i bitched about these ships on the word go. Their awesmoe for newbies to be certain, but you dont learn anything from flying them.
I and one or two others that i know, refuse to fly the JSF. Its the space composite. PvE wise, i fly my Tie Advanced or Tie Oppressor. Odd thing is, i can outkill "ace" pilots in JSF's with my T/A.
In PvP, i simply don't care anymore. Between exploited parts and ships that empower a newbie to think hes immortal, i have no qualms about using an RG Tie. I would prefer to use my old tie, but the reality is, it can't compete anymore.
At least you still care, i can't say that i do anymore, espeically in PvP. The games balance and mechanics are pretty much trashed, and its exloited to hell in a handbasket. I dont care anymore, and i don't have any faith sony will fix the problems. Exploits that basically put you in god mode have existed since day 1. WO3 bug has existed since day 1. Their not going to fix it, i think its kind obvious by now.
I think the only reson im playing now, is ive enjoyed the new guild ive gotten into and some of the people i know.. taht and just generally being an MMO addict. But the game i loved, has long been ruined.
Alarien wrote:Bring the A-Wing up to 80 or 90k mass and the regular X-Wing to 120k mass. Give the A-Wing a 2nd gun.
Stop the bus right there.
That is so not the answer, its not even funny.
JanuHull wrote:
Think about it this way, I have a Clone Relic carbine, an archaic weapon from a bygone war, unlike carbines of the modern era, its range is shorter and its damage is lesser.
We also need to keep in mind that these "relics... from a bygone war" is not entirely accurate. From the begining of the clone war to the present ingame time is about 20 years. Our millitary still uses M-16s introduced in the Viet Nam war more than 30 years ago. Only now are new innovations being implemented on the battlefield. Not mention that the new tech being used is not really new. It is at least 5 years old.
Also these relics are of the best of the technology of the era not the standard millitary issue like the old ships. There is a massive difference between the two. For example, the computer I use at work is decent and about 2 years younger than my computer at home. However, my computer at home is about 3 times faster than the one at work. Just because something is newer and from a more technologically advance time doesn't mean that that technology was used in the absolute best methods on every single one. This like saying that just because you have an R2 droid it be able to do everything thatR2-D2 could do or that your YT-1300 should be exactly the same as the Mellinium Falcon(sp?).
All that being said. I think the JSF should have been much harder to get, and probably have less mass along with the Bel-22.
Ducimus wrote:
Alarien wrote:
Bring the A-Wing up to 80 or 90k mass and the regular X-Wing to 120k mass. Give the A-Wing a 2nd gun.
Stop the bus right there.
That is so not the answer, its not even funny.
True, but that's the cry you'll hear.
Its unfortunate, what used to be a badge of courage is just another night's grinding. Before, whether you were some hot ace on the stick who never scratched his armor or a struggling dirtsider who pulled off the million shot kill against that last TIE fighter on his Kessel exit mission with smoke and fire streaming out of his ship, becoming a master felt like an accomplishment.
The JSF, the Belbullab and the others like it have robbed JTL of its brain. There's a debate on the Kettemoor forum about how unbelievably easy it is to be fully evasive in aJSF, that because it makes attaining a high end fighter so simple. Duels between pilots who know their game lasting 15 minutes or more and people with very little practice or talent can suddenly beat every piece of content in the game without risk.
I get so sick of some jackass faction hopper looking down on me because my ship is a flaming wreck limping to the station after a hard run in Deep Space soloing gunboats andlarge waves of fighterswhile his little Jedi p*ssy fighter is unscathed at the same task. Dammit I like having to work to win. I do it harder because I'm better than the JSF or the Belbullab. I don't need to be coddled like that...
I agree with you in general, that the new ships from RotW are all too common. I think it's mostly because they're new. You mentioned the Heavy X and TIE interceptors, those will eventually be gone as well, once chassis decay sets in. The bellulab-22 I can see being around for the long run, as you can always get another one, and with prices coming down, you can easily stock two or three for future use.
Obviously, the heavy variants that SW can make (can they make the heavy X-wing?) are an effort on the part of the devs to push more of these factional ships out there. The fact that they even had to make heavy variants speaks loudly for how sh1tty they made the masses on these things, as no ace would EVER fly a standard TIE, if they wanted to stand a chance anywhere in the game.
I would go so far as to suggest that a mass balance pass happen on the pre-RotW ships. As for tactical considerations, I agree, part of the fun was trying to decide what components were more important than others, which chassis would fit your flying style, or work for the mission you were about to face. I have a TIE interceptor (pre-RotW) that I've gotten to the point of perfection for me, and I'll NEVER give it up. I'll probably only take the CG interceptor out for a spin and then redeed it. The jsf I'm saving for deep space, so it doesn't suffer decay, should I choose to fly it. I like the bellulab-22 as my toon's "personal" fighter, as opposed to the "company" TIEs, but I'll still fly them. And, you can't blame Imperials for flying the CG interceptor, when it's given 90k mass and actually ACTS like an interceptor, as opposed to the regular version, which is around 50k, and flies a little worse than the TIE Advanced (the ship the interceptor was supposed to improve upon).
So call me crazy, but I think we'll be seeing these new ships alot less as time goes by, unless the devs do something crazy to ensure they are still around. Personally, I can't see the purpose of a heavy X-wing (feel free to correct me), but they should definitely give the Imps a heavy TIE interceptor. That would definitely put a lot more iconic starfighters on the front lines.
Mox ShehalisI used to kid that if I was given 15k more mass over the 65/66 I had in my Advanced, I could move the world.
Well, I got 25k, and I'm rocking some socks. Soon, thanks to the M22-T, I will own every spawn I touch. I don't even mind the 5% speed penalty on the JSF, because I don't ever run, and my 17 second booster (soon to possibly be 18+) gives me the speed I need to get from A to B to F in no time flat.
It's just not normal for a JSF to outdamage 5 other fliers (2 JSF, 1 Bel-22, 1 Adv X-Wing, and one misplaced Y-Wing) working in unison to KS me, but then again, not all of them have been meticulously specced out by me over a period of seven months, in anticipation of another ship coming along to give me the mass to truly create an invincible warbird. While people spent months looking for Exceptional/Legendary weapons/items that were SURE to be nerfed in the CURB, I was busy crafting and collecting for my "Exceptional" ship.
Every piece except the CM launcher (and droid, but that's external) is REed (yes, even the armor, of which I have at least a dozen closely-matched pieces for easy replacements), about as light - both power and mass-wise - as I can get it, and, I can say without ego [/Hanzo], each piece is among some of the best parts ever REed in this game. Both ships are/will-be WO3-fix ready - the Krayt will even be WO4-usage ready, with dual, triple, or quadruple weapon loadouts.
I'm nearing perfection, on both the Imperial and Privateer fronts. And I'm doing all this whilst outfitting a recently-returned friend of mine with the parts he needs to become the premier Imperial aerial enforcer on my server in my absence, be it short or long-term.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-12-2005 04:02 AM
