Pilot Archive
Thread: The FS Conversion Dead Horse
TomoRainer
Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:25 am
#27
Hmm. I could be wrong, but I don't think the idea of uber pilot skills or an uber pilot profession will appeal to many serious space players. It kind of runs against the whole concept of JTL and many of the things we like so much about it.
More content is always nice, and I'm sure there's a suggestion out there somewhere that would work within the system so many of us like so much, but you're looking at a real uphill battle here.
More content is always nice, and I'm sure there's a suggestion out there somewhere that would work within the system so many of us like so much, but you're looking at a real uphill battle here.
LoNe-R
Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:52 am
#28
MonsofoLexius wrote:
AnzelVincir wrote:
Try posing the same question to the folks over in the Force Sensitive forum and I'll betcha you get much different results...
Thanks again...
Thats always a tought one. If you polled the BH forums an overwhelming majority would want to hunt Jedi in space. If you polled the Jedi forums an overwhelming majority would want to have special abilities. If you polled the Smuggler forums they would want to have restricted movement and/or many special smuggler only missions.
Would these things be better for pilots in general? Maybe yes maybe no, but the compairisons could go on for a long time. What I have always tried to do is take no profession (or the FS posting group) over the rest of the pilots. One of my famous personal quotes from my time in restaurant managment regarding focus groups is "beware of asking a question of a specific group when you allready know what the answer will be" and I think asking this in the FS group would get the same "yes" answer as things like "would you like for easier conversion rates?", "would you want special bonuses for ******".
I am FS grinding on the ground. I don't like it but I do it. Now space is the best part of the game, the reason I joined. New content is what we need. It's true. We don't even really need new ships. We need interesting missions. I don't need FS grinders up in space. The best argument against that would be the crowded space lanes. The only way I could see FS conversion in space palatable is for people to have to be OVERT. Then at least I can shoot the fools into debris when they camp a good spawn that one of my junior pilots needs to attack in order to be a REAL pilot.
But in all, FS grinding in space is terrible. Everyone and their mother will be mucking things up. MORE CONTENT PLEASE!!!
psikobunny
Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:25 am
#29
Jedi isn't content, it's cancer. Content isn't a mindless sinkhole for your experience, it's clever things to do and places to play. Address these things for me if you would.
- expanding the Jedi system does nothing to add to the health of the game. More ways to become jedi equals more jedi, throwing things further out of balance.
- using some of the limited Dev time for Pilot/space on FS conversion is a waste, when it could be better used on things appropriate and needed in space (ie actual content). It's not a simple matter of coming up with a fair rate and plugging it into the tables. Rates of gain between different pilot groups would have to be checked, missions would need to be balanced. All that takes time away from other things. Looking at all the RotW stuff, I'm glad they didn't.
- It's easy to see thefact that in FS conversion Space, every pilot would have to deal with a cap on PP. It's a design point of the FS Village that xp is capped, forcing multiple visits. There is no way they would open FS conversion in space and not implement a cap. Justify this to the Aces that have multi-millions and would lose it. Justify this to the people who have no interest in becoming Jedi, and would lose out if anything else would ever get added using Prestige. Justify the dead time for the non FS pilots who cap. I will bet you cash there are more of them than there are peopleinterested in FS grinding in space.
Alienating the biggest participators in Space in the name of an "improvement" does nothing to help the game. I can think of several people who have done a lot to make Space better for hundreds of pilots who would give up if this change was implemented. If you really want to see more high end content than Jedi, let the devs work on it. Stop shoving there nose back to the Jedi trough with requests for focused Jedi "content"
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:43 am
#30
Jedi and their wannabes can have the FS conversion when Pilot skills take actual skill points to earn.
AnzelVincir
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:35 am
#31
psikobunny wrote:
Jedi isn't content, it's cancer. Content isn't a mindless sinkhole for your experience, it's clever things to do and places to play. Address these things for me if you would.
- expanding the Jedi system does nothing to add to the health of the game. More ways to become jedi equals more jedi, throwing things further out of balance. No, it doesn't. It would still take the same amount of time. If you spend one hour in space or if you spend one hour on the ground it's still one hour. That about as basic as math can be. But my guess is that you already know that and are just grasping at stuff for some other reason.
- using some of the limited Dev time for Pilot/space on FS conversion is a waste, when it could be better used on things appropriate and needed in space (ie actual content). It's not a simple matter of coming up with a fair rate and plugging it into the tables. Rates of gain between different pilot groups would have to be checked, missions would need to be balanced. All that takes time away from other things. Looking at all the RotW stuff, I'm glad they didn't. This is one of my favorites. "Limited Dev Time". Again, basic math there buddy. Multiply 250,000 by $14.99every month (not year... month) and I'm pretty sure they can cover it...
- It's easy to see thefact that in FS conversion Space, every pilot would have to deal with a cap on PP. It's a design point of the FS Village that xp is capped, forcing multiple visits. There is no way they would open FS conversion in space and not implement a cap. Justify this to the Aces that have multi-millions and would lose it. Justify this to the people who have no interest in becoming Jedi, and would lose out if anything else would ever get added using Prestige. Justify the dead time for the non FS pilots who cap. I will bet you cash there are more of them than there are peopleinterested in FS grinding in space. First, there is nothing to substantiate an immenent cap of PP. Second, one hour of play in space should be the same as one of play on the ground. I can repeat that as many times as you need me to until you get it. Keep making red herring arguments and I'll keep reiterating myself.
Alienating the biggest participators in Space in the name of an "improvement" does nothing to help the game. I can think of several people who have done a lot to make Space better for hundreds of pilots who would give up if this change was implemented. If you really want to see more high end content than Jedi, let the devs work on it. Stop shoving there nose back to the Jedi trough with requests for focused Jedi "content"
Dude, we get it. You don't like Jedi. You need to tone it down a little bit there though. If you don't like Jedi then playing a Star Wars game may not be the best choice...
LoNe-R
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:37 am
#32
Coran_Sienar wrote:
Jedi and their wannabes can have the FS conversion when Pilot skills take actual skill points to earn.
In other words, never?
Coran_Sienar
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:40 am
#33
Not necessarily never. It depends on if the Devs are willing to change the system (again) to cater to the FS crowd.
psikobunny
Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:46 am
#34
I play a star wars game set in a time period where the number of jedi could be counted on one hand. Over the weekend I saw more than I could count on my fingers and toes. One hour of playtime should not equal one hour of playtime when jedi are the only assumed goal. I want the devs to spend their time making Pilot better, not copy/pasting so that Pilot gets watered down with another aspect of the game. How many times to I need to say that before you get it?
AnzelVincir wrote:
Dude, we get it. You don't like Jedi. You need to tone it down a little bit there though. If you don't like Jedi then playing a Star Wars game may not be the best choice...
AnzelVincir
Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:18 am
#35
psikobunny wrote:
I play a star wars game set in a time period where the number of jedi could be counted on one hand. Over the weekend I saw more than I could count on my fingers and toes. One hour of playtime should not equal one hour of playtime when jedi are the only assumed goal. I want the devs to spend their time making Pilot better, not copy/pasting so that Pilot gets watered down with another aspect of the game. How many times to I need to say that before you get it?
AnzelVincir wrote:
Dude, we get it. You don't like Jedi. You need to tone it down a little bit there though. If you don't like Jedi then playing a Star Wars game may not be the best choice...
Holy crap! There are like three different issues here.
1.) You get no argument from me with Jedi not belonging in SWG. I strongly feel they should move the timeline like 500 years forward or 500 years backward or somewhere where Jedi would be more appropriate. Removing them just isn't going to happen.
2.) One hour of play is one hour of play. You don't get to dictate why someone plays.
3.) I want them to make SWG better for everyone, pilots included.
LoNe-R
Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:31 am
#36
AnzelVincir wrote:
Holy crap! There are like three different issues here.
1.) You get no argument from me with Jedi not belonging in SWG. I strongly feel they should move the timeline like 500 years forward or 500 years backward or somewhere where Jedi would be more appropriate. Removing them just isn't going to happen.
2.) One hour of play is one hour of play. You don't get to dictate why someone plays.
3.) I want them to make SWG better for everyone, pilots included.
SWG won't be better if you bring force conversion to space. It will just make it like the ground. More than half the spawn campers are mindlessly grinding FS down there. I walk around when I grind, never go into caves. But even if I wanted to, there's some nitwit camping the cave. the only cave or dungeon I think that isn't being spawn camped is the Deathwatch Bunker. Now, if space is changed, and all of space is being camped, where will our novice pilots go? How will people go for multiple badges? Duty missions are cool, but will 10 people doing the same duty mission, lagging the server IMPROVE the game? I think not.
If you can tell me why Force conversion is GOOD for space, other than warm bodies suddenly appearing, I'd like to hear it. Because the type of people that FS conversion from space would allow are not the types who would make JTL anymore fun.
Ducimus
Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:46 am
#37
KaylBreinhar wrote:
The only way I'd ever think Prestige xp to FS xp would EVER be fairly convertible would be if the ratio was 500 or 1000:1. You couldn't make starship xp convertible, as true powergrinders would do eight squadrons, then stick at 4444 on the 9th to exploit the multi-Ace bonus.
Ouch your right. I hadnt thought of that. One more reason why FP xp conversion should not EVER happen.
Wraith-X
Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:16 pm
#38
I'll admit to being a bit confused by this issue.
Folks against FS conversions seem to be worried that enough FS grinders will enter space to camp spawns and make things unfun as they 'grind out' their experience.
I can see why that would bother people but I've been all over space and can only think of ONE spot where you can truly mindlessly grind hours away with no real piloting skill and everyone already knows where it is so its camped all the time anyway. So that bit wouldn't change. And really that 'one spot' should probably be changed as it feels a bit... I don't know... exploity (and I've gone there and done the grind thing... just not recently cause it feels a lot like work and not a lot like playing.)
I can see why the mindset of FS grinder would bug people but it seems like that mindset wouldn't enjoy space in the first place. In space you have to be at the computer, mostly paying attention (I do like to throw in a movie to listen to while I blast stuff in Kessel or Dathspace though.). I've had to run on emergency bio breaks while helping a newbie pilot take out tier 2 stuff so set myself spinning and trusted that my super cool shields would regen fast enough to keep me alive. Oops... came back just a couple minutes later to be sitting at the station. Away from keyboard grinders will not be coming to space any time soon.
I personally feel that Jedi should NEVER have any advantage over other types of pilots (and from the expansion notes it sure looks like they're getting none. The 'Jedi fighter' from what I've seen will be available to all.) The number of Jedi running around currently is silly... yes. But thats the way the game is built so far. Whether or not there are too many isn't the point though. Whether they get an advantage in space or not (Please no) isn't the point. The only thing that should be argued is whether Force Sensitive's should be able to convert pilot xp (Please no) or Pilot Prestige (Yes) to FS experience.
There is usually some comment about how 'they' should have to be perma overt or somesuch and lose xp like 'they' do on the ground. Force Sensitives don't lose a single point of xp when they die on the ground. Force Sensitives are never (to my knowledge) overt without consenting to be so.
Then there is the assumption that all FS grinders are doing so to be l33t j3d!. Of the people I know who are even doing the FS thing... 3 or 4 are working on what will eventually be a fully templated Jedi (Me included although I'd go for being an NS I think if that were an option.) and none of those are doing it to be uber but more cause the Force is a large part of the SW universe despite the fact that the smuggler was so much sexier than the Jedi in the original films.3 are working on FS just to get the extra character slot and may or may not drop some or all of their FS skills if possible once they've unlocked. 2 are working onthe FS skill to supplement their template with the FS skills and have no plans of using theextra slot nor working on Jedi (I think they're doing this largely because their current templates are suboptimal even for PVE and are hoping to shore them up a bit.).
Maybe this has radically skewed my perspective or something since intellectually I know those numbers aren't representational but emotionally it just doesn't seem like its this huge game breaking problem. It could also be a server thing asit was almost a month before I saw alightsaber in action and my guild still makes a commentin chat when they see a Jedi. I take it from other folks comments thatJediare a heck of a lot more visible on my server.
On the other hand the only timeI've reported other characters in game were two Jedi.
But Jediare not the same as Force Sensitives.
Currently there is achoice for people like me between having fun in space,or grinding out FS on the ground (Jedi doesn't call to me as much as having an extra slot for a shipwright I could play and not feel like I was missing out of combat SP'swhen itcomes to killing NS, which is the only fun I have in the ground game anymore.Be nice to be able to fly for multiple squadrons at once too (with an alt). All that hinges on unlocking Jedi since I'm barely scraping to afford the one game fee per month let alone six or seven as some folks do. (No, I don't like that the only way to unlock the slot is to do the FS grind. No, I don't think its good for the game that there is only one 'uber' profession in the game.)
Anyway enough of my rambling. I actually forced myself to post this as my natural inclination when I see these threads is to move on... but then I noticed that if you just move on people start assuming that the quiet people agree with the majority. The reason I'm reluctant to post particularly on this issue (Forced myself several times so far) is because despite the relative courtesy I've found on the pilot boards this issue and a couple others seem to result in heated responses not toofar from flames.
Perhaps a poll could be placed in some relatively neutral area (Rather than the pilot, force sensitive, shipwrightor Jedi boards) and simply linked to the interested forums? And preferably a real poll instead of a post based one to encourage people to vote who otherwise might shy away for fear of being flamed. Finally, if a poll were posted, and if the poll were broken up into multiple options please leave one pristine bit for a 'Yay or Nay' vote assuming that plenty of the other things people are hoping for (For instance if a FS conversion were put on live I would want to feel some real pain choosing to convert those PP's because I'd be giving up some really cool stuff I could otherwise buy with it.)
Like I said maybe my view is seriously skewed, but I suspect the heat surrounding this issue would be toned way down if Pilots were already agonizing over all the hundreds of different things they could do with their PP's. As it is if a FS conversion came in tomorrow I actually do think that would be a problem and might be against it just because there's nothing else to do with those points. Heck one trip to DS is usually PAID for by a couple hits on stuff IN DS. How cool would it be if there were so many things to do with PP's that some pilots would have to actually grind for a minute or two to even GET to DS?
AnzelVincir
Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:36 am
#39
LoNe-R wrote:
AnzelVincir wrote:
Holy crap! There are like three different issues here.
1.) You get no argument from me with Jedi not belonging in SWG. I strongly feel they should move the timeline like 500 years forward or 500 years backward or somewhere where Jedi would be more appropriate. Removing them just isn't going to happen.
2.) One hour of play is one hour of play. You don't get to dictate why someone plays.
3.) I want them to make SWG better for everyone, pilots included.
SWG won't be better if you bring force conversion to space. It will just make it like the ground. More than half the spawn campers are mindlessly grinding FS down there. I walk around when I grind, never go into caves. But even if I wanted to, there's some nitwit camping the cave. the only cave or dungeon I think that isn't being spawn camped is the Deathwatch Bunker. Now, if space is changed, and all of space is being camped, where will our novice pilots go? How will people go for multiple badges? Duty missions are cool, but will 10 people doing the same duty mission, lagging the server IMPROVE the game? I think not.
If you can tell me why Force conversion is GOOD for space, other than warm bodies suddenly appearing, I'd like to hear it. Because the type of people that FS conversion from space would allow are not the types who would make JTL anymore fun.
1.) If you read my original proposal above you would see that we are NOT looking to shorten (in terms of time) the FS grind by bringing people to space. An FS conversion of PPs would require that the player spend just as much time playing the game in space as they would on the ground.
2.) Most FS power grinders use MACROS. AFAIK there is no superior macro for JTL over what is accomplished on the ground. Not even using 3rd party macros. Yes, some people would go into space to try and grind out some FS but regardless of their intent they would actually have to PLAY the game rather than run a macro in the other room while they watch TV. And that IS good for SWG and JTL.
3.) The more people you have in space actually playing the game means that all of those people need to actually buy a ship instead of using their yacht. That means increased sales for SWs on chassis, increased sales on equiptment and weapons, and more people actually playing JTL. More people playing JTL means that JTL will require more development time. More development time means better JTL.