Pilot Archive
Thread: Am I the only pilot sick of hearing....
>>died!!!! That is so unfair!!!!"?
No your not the only one.
Hence why i made the "PvP primer for rookie pilots" post. ( thought id attempt at being constructive rather than flaming them like i REALLY want to
)>>JTL pvp needs some tweaking. some very minor tweaking. but that is all.
Agreed.
>>That's what gets people to come and PvP. It's not winning or losing, it's >>the rush.
Truer words were never spoken. Its what makes SWG .... FUN. The rush, the thrill, the exelleration. Take that away, and i honestly have no reason to play this game anymore. Its the thrill that makes SWG to me, a cut above your typical MMORPG. I can roleplay AND get the rush here, and best of all i dont have to grind the template of the month to do it either! I can improve my game by improving my personal skills and knowledge, not by how much time i grind getting to the next level on my toon.
As a former planetside player, what id really like is MASSIVE space battles! When im kissing starport 10-20 time in an hour and maybe scored 30 to 40 kills in that same hour.. Life will be good!
VemaGara wrote:i'm surprised this many people get it, honestly.Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-04-2005 04:56 PM
I "got this" early on, but then I drifted away. I converted over. The more that I put "everyone's fun" as important, the more the system needs changes. I'm not dissing anyone for LIKING this type of PvP. I do get the challenge. But what's good for the game? That makes me pause. That's what got me to change camps away from this camp.
the problem is, you are working off the assumption that people don't pvp because of the quick kills. that's all it is though, an assumption based off annecdotal evidence. what if people avoid pvp because there's no point? i've queryed my server board asking why people in space don't pvp and you know what the # response was? "i'm always overt in space." followed by "there's no point" i believe.
annecodal information is just that, but we do know for a fact that many people are bored in space. we know for a fact many people don't play space at all, or even own JTL. would modifying a mechanic that does have sizeable support with the community seem worth the assumed result that it would increase participation in space? i don't think so. not without fixing everything that is really broken and adding inticing content first.
plus, did you ever consider that even if (and imo it's a big if) a big portion of the playerbase was in the long dogfight camp, they could be flat out wrong about what it would do to the game if moidified improperly?
VemaGara wrote:
PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.Message Edited by VemaGara on
Reducing PvP damge wont bring in many ( if any ) new players to JTL. The reality i think is jtl itself, is a nitch playstyle.
With all the GCW changes on the ground, CU, ROTW adding in a whole new planet, the majoirty of the people are going to on the ground. It's really hard to resist.
On top of that, the majority of players in SWG, do not like to PvP at all. PvP players are a minority group. Of this minority group, most of them are special spamming defensive stackers. Space isnt set up like this, so its probably not appealing by default. Overall, Space PvP seem to be the smallest niche intrest in the game. It is a minority group, of what is already a minority in SWG. The smallest of the small. How large do you think this community is EVER going to be?
Geevo wrote:
I think of it this way...
Episode 4 ... Luke was able to take a few hits (getting damaged with Artoo repairing)
The falcon was able to take a beating a lot better
We should go towards that direction...but be careful not to make ships too powerful.
Luke took a few glancing shots and was the hero so he has to live. He got shot down in ESB and in ROTJ, reb and imp pilots were getting blastedleft and right. One shot kills all over the place. However, I do agree that MP ships should be able to take more damage...much more. Even with an outstanding repair crew, pilot, and gunners, and MP ship won't last much longer than a fighter in PVP. Personally I would like to see master Shipwright exclusive parts for MP ships. Parts that will take advantage of that 5mil mass. Parts that only master shipwrights can craft and only master pilots can use. Novas and Decimators should be slow and sluggish but should be able to take massive amounts of damage and should be able to deal massive amounts of damage as well. The YT should be MUCH more manuverable and able to take more damage...although not as much as a nova or decimator.
Lots of work to do on the ships and droid programs, but the mechanics, physics, and combat systems are fine the way they are.
And for those of you who feel space combat is too fast and too deadly....just wait until the new X-wings and TIE Interceptors come out.You sissiesmight as well just stay on the ground and keep grinding your Jedi. 
quadpers0n wrote:
VemaGara wrote:i'm surprised this many people get it, honestly.Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-04-2005 04:56 PM
I "got this" early on, but then I drifted away. I converted over. The more that I put "everyone's fun" as important, the more the system needs changes. I'm not dissing anyone for LIKING this type of PvP. I do get the challenge. But what's good for the game? That makes me pause. That's what got me to change camps away from this camp.
the problem is, you are working off the assumption that people don't pvp because of the quick kills. that's all it is though, an assumption based off annecdotal evidence. what if people avoid pvp because there's no point? i've queryed my server board asking why people in space don't pvp and you know what the # response was? "i'm always overt in space." followed by "there's no point" i believe.annecodal information is just that, but we do know for a fact that many people are bored in space. we know for a fact many people don't play space at all, or even own JTL. would modifying a mechanic that does have sizeable support with the community seem worth the assumed result that it would increase participation in space? i don't think so. not without fixing everything that is really broken and adding inticing content first. plus, did you ever consider that even if (and imo it's a big if) a big portion of the playerbase was in the long dogfight camp, they could be flat out wrong about what it would do to the game if moidified improperly?
So to fix PvP in space, first we need a point to it. That's a good place to start. When there is a point to it, the rules must be such that everyone from rookie PvPers to the true Aces must all feel like they contribute. This doesn't necessarily mean nerfing damage, but it does mean having a meaningful role for light, medium, and heavy craft, and especially POB ships. Right now, with a dogfighting centric PvP, there is little incentive or need for a wide variety of craft. I find this sad.
Once there is a point to PvP, I think that folks will be much more willing to be blown apart, as they feel part of something bigger.
what do you know about the majority? your position isn't even the majority on this very thread protesting PVP damage.
fact: significantly less players play space frequently than their ground pounding counterparts
fact: there is no point whatsoever to space pvp save bragging rights
fact: you can get faction on the ground without danger of PVP
given those FACTS alone it is astounding that there is even PVP at all.
hey, lets have some more facts:
1. fact: deep space is not empty 24/7
2. fact: some servers have very active PVP.
3. fact: numerous mechanics that affect PVP are still rediculously broken and you have no idea what will happen to PVP after they are fixed.
the post you quoted was correct and it is good advice. the last FACT is that people who hate the amount of damage done in PVP right now are the same people who cannot grasp a substantial portion of the requisite knowledge to be marginally successful in space pvp. it was bound to happen. not everyone can be good at things, the important part is that the devs recognize that when the people who aren't good complain, they shouldn't be listened to.
I speak as a mastershipwright, an active pvp player with 2 accounts, having completed 3 seperate pilot cert badges, working on the 4th. I make it a point to go to deep space daily and see if anyone is there and usually destroy them if they are. If that means I don't know enough to comment things I guess you can just ignore me. And this post is supporting pvp damage, not protesting it. I'm protesting pvp damage in certain areas. I want to find a solution that keeps light fighters the way they are now and gives heavy fighters more protection from shields and armor.
1. I think we all know that, because myself and other players are up there alone wishing there were more players. What is your point?
2. Some servers. Not all. I don't want to change servers, I like my server I want to tweak things so that more people on my server play.
3. That is exactly what we are trying to discuss. PvP damge is one of them.
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 04-05-2005 10:52 AM
The falcon was able to take a beating a lot better
VemaGara wrote:
So to fix PvP in space, first we need a point to it. That's a good place to start.
What's the point to ground PVP then? If that's you're argument then nobody should be fighting each other at all. On the ground you get a PVP rating. Big deal. The hardcore PVPers have ratings that change so often they don't even keep track anymore. PVP to hunt Jedi is nice but still...what's the point. They'll be back on the BH terms again anyway. PVP bases...what's the point there? You blow one up and in a day or two there is another to take it's place. So why bother? Because it's fun. PVP on the ground gains you nothing other than the excitment of testing your character control skills against another human being. Thus the point of space PVP. To go up against a human pilot in space is far more exciting then blasting NPC ships all day. If you suck then it's frustrating. But you will either get sick of getting shot down and get better or not come back to space overt ever again. Good pilots want to become great pilots. Nancy Boy pilots land and never come back. Either way it works for me. In the animal kingdom they call it Natural Sellection.
When there is a point to it, the rules must be such that everyone from rookie PvPers to the true Aces must all feel like they contribute.
They do contribute. Rookies train and work hard to become true Aces and as they get better they can help out the newer rookies. Then once those rookies become Aces they will go out and kill other Aces and help the rookies who will then become Aces and continue the cycle. That's called the Circle of Life (see The Lion King for details) and when you couple that with Natural Sellection you get JTL.
This doesn't necessarily mean nerfing damage, but it does mean having a meaningful role for light, medium, and heavy craft, and especially POB ships. Right now, with a dogfighting centric PvP, there is little incentive or need for a wide variety of craft. I find this sad.
While some ships are better than others in PVP all ships do have a role. Light craft are perfect for solo sweeps and patrols and 1 on 1 dogfights. Medium ships are perfect for escorting light overt ships on missions or patrols and in the hands of a good pilot are deadly in PVP. Heavy ships are great for busting vettes or player MP ships, and again, in the hands of a good pilot, a heavy fighter is a force to be reckoned with. MP ships do need work. But they do have a role. If you've got a GOOD squadron, you can roll out with a few MP ships and have fighter escortsfor each ofthem. With MP ships the way they are now it's suicidal to fly without a fighter escort. For me I use a full crew of 10 for my Decimator (1pilot, 1 Ops, 2 gunners, 3 repair techs, 3 docs) and have Opressor and Interceptor escorts...usually 3-5. Believe me when I tell you that if we come across any other players they are gone. Now imagine 3-5 Decimators with 3-5 escorts each out on patrol through Kessel or deep space. Unless you run across an equal or greater sized force, nothing will stand in your way. Plus on top of that you can do a little Role Playing. use call signs, get Team Speak or some other audio program. When you have a headset on and are able to issue commands to your pilots or MP ship crew, things are just that much better and very very exciting.
Everyone in our flight has a role, some are assigned to stay with the Decimators, some are tasked with clearing out any fighters or other MP ships we come across, and the MP ships are tasked with providing cover and supressive fire. When you're in a big dogfight and you've got fighters coming after you and keping you away from the MP ship, people tend to forget about that MP ship which is closing in on you with 4K+ blasters eating you alive. There are roles for EACH craft...you just have to use them right and put forth the effort to use them right.
Once there is a point to PvP, I think that folks will be much more willing to be blown apart, as they feel part of something bigger.
The point to PVP is to have fun. If you are no good at it then you need to work hard to get better. Of course it isn't fun to get shot down..but if you WANT to have fun you have to work and learn how NOT to get shot down. At the most basic levels what will help you the most is a good PYR engine and SITUATIONAL AWARNESS!!! I can't stress that enough. If you get shot down for not paying attention then that's your own damn fault. If you get shot down because you zigged when you should have zagged then you need to work on that. If you get shot down because you got bested then you need to get used to the fact that there is always a bigger fish. Send that big fish a /salute then go after him again or go practice. To be good at ANY PVP, space or ground, it takes practice, practice, practice.
I don't care what people whine to the Devs about. Because no mater what, at the end of the day, if you are a weak pilot, you will get shot down. 1 shot, 10 shots, you will die.