Pilot Archive
Thread: Am I the only pilot sick of hearing....
VemaGara wrote:
I disagree.
For me, this is a game-mechanics problem. The entire flavor of PvE is lost going to PvP.
The ground game used to follow this model: shoot and kill. In the end, the ground game rejected this model. They wanted knock-down, dragout fights, and not one-hit kills. I'm for that model for the same reasons: I don't want to one-shot my enemy. I want to get into a stiff fight where time and skill, and and much less chance, determines the winner. I don't want to one-shot my enemy, I want to sweat the combat for the entire time, and have my skill and not my RE guns, to give me victory. Secondly, I want my opponent to get experience fighting me. I want him to survive long enough to get excited by the fight, and go "that was great!" even when he looses. My opponent will LEARN something, and soon grow to be a better and tougher opponent.
One-shot PvP discourages PvP. One-shot PvP makes it harder to develop better opponents. One-shot PvP puts too much emphasis on luck or surprise. For these reasons, PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.
Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-04-2005 11:35 AM
The current model for ground PvP (as stated in the CU notes) is that a PvP battle should last around 1-3 minutes. It's not one-shot kill stuff, but it's fast.
Currently, that's about the same for space PvP, unless you sneak up on someone and tag them with a missle shot or a gun blast.
Lesson: Deep Space or Overt means being alert at all times. The difference in the ground game is that you can take a hit or two and heal, and either run or engage. Space is much less forgiving. (But it still comes down to practice and awareness.)
This isn't like some Master Rifleman taking down somenew player with no armor and a CDEF pistol. By the time an Ace pilot has the opportunity to enter Deep Space they have had ample time to collect the chassis and great components. Any pilot that goes overt in normal space to collect faction points is probably not going to get gunned down by an Ace. All kidding aside, I never saw a single overt Rebel ship when I went up the line.
Right now, there is very little range difference in equipment. Sure, I've read there are some "pre-nerf" engines and some exploited shields, but I really wonder how much of a problem that really is, and there a much higher maturity level in space PvP than there is in the ground game. If you want people to get experience fighting you, then set up in starter ships with all prototype equipment, so there is no difference in equipment levels.I'm betting that would be the fast track to getting people excited about PvP in the scenario you describe.
Space PvP with SKILLED individuals can already last a couple of minutes. I don't see your point.
and plus a properly outfitted Krayt, Firespray, Oppressor or even an X-wing won't die in one shot. The last time someone got the better of me was when he was in a firespray and I hit him 3 times thinking I got him, and he took me out with half armor damage!
Read the dude's post up top.They are trulywords of wisdom. Beautiful, and to the point.
For PvP to be engaging to a larger audience, PvE skilled individuals must be able to last long enough in a PvP to get an adrenalin rush and feel like they COULD have won. That's the hook. That's what gets people to come and PvP. It's not winning or losing, it's the rush. That's where the rules should put you. A good PvE pilot should come into PvP, have a rush, but ultimately lose. The damage rules need to favor that balance.
Everyone here knows that PvP and PvE are just different. A great PvE pilot is not a PvP pilot. Telling a good PvE pilot, "learn to fly", is just condescending. Telling them, "get better equipment" is condescending. A good PvE flyer already has good equipment and good skills, but these are tuned to fight NPC opponents. However, human opponents are a different playing field, and the difference between those fields is extreme. It's that extreme difference that the one-shot opponents don't like.
Like I said, I don't want to take out an opponent, even an incompentent one, in 1 shot, 2, or even 3-4 shots. I want THEM to have fun so that they will come back for more, which makes for more fun for everyone.
VemaGara wrote:
I disagree.
For me, this is a game-mechanics problem. The entire flavor of PvE is lost going to PvP.
The ground game used to follow this model: shoot and kill. In the end, the ground game rejected this model. They wanted knock-down, dragout fights, and not one-hit kills. I'm for that model for the same reasons: I don't want to one-shot my enemy. I want to get into a stiff fight where time and skill, and and much less chance, determines the winner. I don't want to one-shot my enemy, I want to sweat the combat for the entire time, and have my skill and not my RE guns, to give me victory. Secondly, I want my opponent to get experience fighting me. I want him to survive long enough to get excited by the fight, and go "that was great!" even when he looses. My opponent will LEARN something, and soon grow to be a better and tougher opponent.
One-shot PvP discourages PvP. One-shot PvP makes it harder to develop better opponents. One-shot PvP puts too much emphasis on luck or surprise. For these reasons, PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.
Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-04-2005 11:35 AM
Story time...
I was in Kessle, overt as always, killing Black Sun fighters and Aces (looking for that DAMN helmet), I was in my advanced, in the middle of a Black Sun infested nebula when I saw another red dot on my radar moving in a nice straight line towards me. obviously a player. I hit the "target closest enemy player button" and sure enough...overt X-wing inbound.
I kept doing my thing to make him think I didn't notice and also to try and gague his speed. just before he got into range I went into action. I turned, faced him as if I was going to joust with him, then droped, turned and rolled to get under his belly and finish the job. He countered and rolled out of the way. At that point I knew this wasn't going to be a match speed flying around doing a circle jerk. I did a looping roll and got on his 6 and he boosted to about 1100 speed. My advanced has no booster but with EO4 I can get up to well over 1400 so running him down wasn't a problem. The fact that he lured me into a blind spot and lead me into a rebel vette was the problem. I was able to avoid the vette and the gunboats and he looped around and over the bridge of the vette to try and get on my 3 and take me out. I rolled and went between that gap in the vettes engines and decided to take him for a tour of my office. The Kessel astroid fields.
I was able to shake him in the astroid field, get back on his six and squeeze of a few shots. He rolled and got behind one of the bigger astroids and did a very nice tight turning roll around it and came out right on my 12 and spit death at me. I did a quick dive and rolled back around the same astroid just as the blaster bolts streaked past me. With my 1500 shield and no armor, had they hit me I would have been done.
This kept going on for about 5 minutes. Another overt reb in an A-wing showed up and cut across my flight path blasting and hitting nothing but empty space. Obviously very nervous to see another overt which is why I think his shots went wide. I dropped speed to about 1200, did a quick bank, and ended his run. my single blaster spits at around 3600 and is more than enough to deal with most shields. So now it was back to 1 on 1.
But my little manuver to take out the A wing was all the X-wing needed to get on me. He started laying down heavy fire and I was in trouble. I cut engines, banked and rolled and as he went past me he scored a hit that killed my engines but he put himself right in my line of fire. Had he pulled up after killing my engine I would have been gone. But he wasn't expecting me to stop dead and wasn't able to react quick enough. By the time he knew what was going on so he could correct it was too late.
Since then he and I have had several such dog fights. Sometimes he wins, some times I do. But on average they last around 5-10 minutes. And believe me when I tell you that my heartwas pumping the entire time. If you have two pilots how know what's going on and are aware of the space around their ship, then you are in for a dogfight. 90% of my kills have been scored on pilots who simply were not paying attention.
One-Shot PVP keps you on your toes. One shot PVP will make good pilots better and poor pilots either want to get better or not play. Either way it will keep bad pilots out of my vaccume. If you find yourself getting shot down you have to want to get better and learn NOT to get shot down. Begging the Devs to make things easier for you will only make it harder on you in the long run.
Get up there, get blasted, learn what you did wrong, fix it, get back up there, get shot up some more, wash-rinse-repeat until you actually deserve to sport that "Ace" tag over your head.
Saddly, that Reb pilot and my dogfighting buddy is leaving the game soon. Looks like I'll have to make a pilot on Kauri and see if I can't get Lone-R to adjust his sig a bit
/salute
AnzelVincir wrote:
I haven't seen another overt player in months...
Thradd wrote:
VemaGara wrote:
I disagree.
For me, this is a game-mechanics problem. The entire flavor of PvE is lost going to PvP.
The ground game used to follow this model: shoot and kill. In the end, the ground game rejected this model. They wanted knock-down, dragout fights, and not one-hit kills. I'm for that model for the same reasons: I don't want to one-shot my enemy. I want to get into a stiff fight where time and skill, and and much less chance, determines the winner. I don't want to one-shot my enemy, I want to sweat the combat for the entire time, and have my skill and not my RE guns, to give me victory. Secondly, I want my opponent to get experience fighting me. I want him to survive long enough to get excited by the fight, and go "that was great!" even when he looses. My opponent will LEARN something, and soon grow to be a better and tougher opponent.
One-shot PvP discourages PvP. One-shot PvP makes it harder to develop better opponents. One-shot PvP puts too much emphasis on luck or surprise. For these reasons, PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.
Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-04-2005 11:35 AM
Story time...
I was in Kessle, overt as always, killing Black Sun fighters and Aces (looking for that DAMN helmet), I was in my advanced, in the middle of a Black Sun infested nebula when I saw another red dot on my radar moving in a nice straight line towards me. obviously a player. I hit the "target closest enemy player button" and sure enough...overt X-wing inbound.
I kept doing my thing to make him think I didn't notice and also to try and gague his speed. just before he got into range I went into action. I turned, faced him as if I was going to joust with him, then droped, turned and rolled to get under his belly and finish the job. He countered and rolled out of the way. At that point I knew this wasn't going to be a match speed flying around doing a circle jerk. I did a looping roll and got on his 6 and he boosted to about 1100 speed. My advanced has no booster but with EO4 I can get up to well over 1400 so running him down wasn't a problem. The fact that he lured me into a blind spot and lead me into a rebel vette was the problem. I was able to avoid the vette and the gunboats and he looped around and over the bridge of the vette to try and get on my 3 and take me out. I rolled and went between that gap in the vettes engines and decided to take him for a tour of my office. The Kessel astroid fields.
I was able to shake him in the astroid field, get back on his six and squeeze of a few shots. He rolled and got behind one of the bigger astroids and did a very nice tight turning roll around it and came out right on my 12 and spit death at me. I did a quick dive and rolled back around the same astroid just as the blaster bolts streaked past me. With my 1500 shield and no armor, had they hit me I would have been done.
This kept going on for about 5 minutes. Another overt reb in an A-wing showed up and cut across my flight path blasting and hitting nothing but empty space. Obviously very nervous to see another overt which is why I think his shots went wide. I dropped speed to about 1200, did a quick bank, and ended his run. my single blaster spits at around 3600 and is more than enough to deal with most shields. So now it was back to 1 on 1.
But my little manuver to take out the A wing was all the X-wing needed to get on me. He started laying down heavy fire and I was in trouble. I cut engines, banked and rolled and as he went past me he scored a hit that killed my engines but he put himself right in my line of fire. Had he pulled up after killing my engine I would have been gone. But he wasn't expecting me to stop dead and wasn't able to react quick enough. By the time he knew what was going on so he could correct it was too late.
Since then he and I have had several such dog fights. Sometimes he wins, some times I do. But on average they last around 5-10 minutes. And believe me when I tell you that my heartwas pumping the entire time. If you have two pilots how know what's going on and are aware of the space around their ship, then you are in for a dogfight. 90% of my kills have been scored on pilots who simply were not paying attention.
One-Shot PVP keps you on your toes. One shot PVP will make good pilots better and poor pilots either want to get better or not play. Either way it will keep bad pilots out of my vaccume. If you find yourself getting shot down you have to want to get better and learn NOT to get shot down. Begging the Devs to make things easier for you will only make it harder on you in the long run.
Get up there, get blasted, learn what you did wrong, fix it, get back up there, get shot up some more, wash-rinse-repeat until you actually deserve to sport that "Ace" tag over your head.
Saddly, that Reb pilot and my dogfighting buddy is leaving the game soon. Looks like I'll have to make a pilot on Kauri and see if I can't get Lone-R to adjust his sig a bit
Damn, makes me really want to fly overt now. I only wish the YT-1300 was good in PvP. I would use that! Otherwise, I should look into finding some pilots to fight.
LoNe-R wrote:
VemaGara wrote:
I disagree.
For me, this is a game-mechanics problem. The entire flavor of PvE is lost going to PvP.
The ground game used to follow this model: shoot and kill. In the end, the ground game rejected this model. They wanted knock-down, dragout fights, and not one-hit kills. I'm for that model for the same reasons: I don't want to one-shot my enemy. I want to get into a stiff fight where time and skill, and and much less chance, determines the winner. I don't want to one-shot my enemy, I want to sweat the combat for the entire time, and have my skill and not my RE guns, to give me victory. Secondly, I want my opponent to get experience fighting me. I want him to survive long enough to get excited by the fight, and go "that was great!" even when he looses. My opponent will LEARN something, and soon grow to be a better and tougher opponent.
One-shot PvP discourages PvP. One-shot PvP makes it harder to develop better opponents. One-shot PvP puts too much emphasis on luck or surprise. For these reasons, PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-04-2005 11:35 AM
Space PvP with SKILLED individuals can already last a couple of minutes. I don't see your point.
and plus a properly outfitted Krayt, Firespray, Oppressor or even an X-wing won't die in one shot. The last time someone got the better of me was when he was in a firespray and I hit him 3 times thinking I got him, and he took me out with half armor damage!
Read the dude's post up top. They are truly words of wisdom. Beautiful, and to the point.
You are in serious denial LoNeR.
Pvp is not perfect. Deep space is always empty. All the praise it gets from people who say it's perfect doesn't mean squat when I go into deep space and it's empty. Preach all you want but the devs have the numbers and they don't lie. People aren't playing at the master level in space, pvp or pve.
A) Learn to fly
B) Get beter parts for your ship
C) Don't PVP in space
D) If you want to PVP in space see 'A' and 'B'
E) Stay on the ground
F) Play X-Wing vs. TIE
G) See 'A'
Stuff like this doesn't help anything and it's the best way to get exactly what you don't want. Find a solution that makes the majority happy, otherwise you'll be the one doing choices C-G.
VemaGara wrote:
Space PvP with SKILLED individuals can already last a couple of minutes. I don't see your point.
and plus a properly outfitted Krayt, Firespray, Oppressor or even an X-wing won't die in one shot. The last time someone got the better of me was when he was in a firespray and I hit him 3 times thinking I got him, and he took me out with half armor damage!
Read the dude's post up top.They are trulywords of wisdom. Beautiful, and to the point.
For PvP to be engaging to a larger audience, PvE skilled individuals must be able to last long enough in a PvP to get an adrenalin rush and feel like they COULD have won. That's the hook. That's what gets people to come and PvP. It's not winning or losing, it's the rush. That's where the rules should put you. A good PvE pilot should come into PvP, have a rush, but ultimately lose. The damage rules need to favor that balance.
Everyone here knows that PvP and PvE are just different. A great PvE pilot is not a PvP pilot. Telling a good PvE pilot, "learn to fly", is just condescending. Telling them, "get better equipment" is condescending. A good PvE flyer already has good equipment and good skills, but these are tuned to fight NPC opponents. However, human opponents are a different playing field, and the difference between those fields is extreme. It's that extreme difference that the one-shot opponents don't like.
Like I said, I don't want to take out an opponent, even an incompentent one, in 1 shot, 2, or even 3-4 shots. I want THEM to have fun so that they will come back for more, which makes for more fun for everyone.
then why not use a level 5 gun in your pvp ship? i do. not a single person who takes your stance: IE: "i don't want it to be too easy" has explained to me yet why they don't actively pursue the 5-10 shot mechanic they clamor for by simply using a level 5 gun. you know why? because your stance is a smoke screen. nobody does that because the reality is nobody wants to be at a "disadvantage". your attitude is your disadvantage and you don't even know it.
and unfortunately your theory about the transition between PVE and PVP doesn't hold water either. space PVE for me, is very fast with my heavy fighter's guns. only tier 5s last more than 1 or 2 hits, so what PVE experience really is being lost? the PVE experience vs gunboats? you are right about one thing though, it is condescending. however it's warranted. it does not take as much skill to be a good PVE pilot as it does to be a good PVP pilot. why?
because enemy AI is finite and predictable. it has nothing to do with the amount of shots it takes to kill something.
it's neither here nor there however, as a "good PVE pilot" is entirely relative. for me, a good pve pilot is someone who is taking on the droid fighter spawn with shield topping out in the 500s. those pilots are aware of what PVP is like as well as PVE and work to improve their skills instead of merely getting on a message board and ask for a nerf and hypothesising about what will "get people to come and PvP".
the fact of the matter is you are merely assuming PVP damage is a significant reason why people don't pvp, despite every single forum thread asking people why usually tops out with "there's no motivation to" being the #1 reason. i don't even think PVP damage came in third. it's a nice assumption, i mean in a perfect world with non variable equipment strengths and different types of ship classes with respective bonuses and restrictions a damage reduction would be warranted. unfortunately every noob space PVP tourist doesn't want to consider the implcations of asking for something like this to be "fixed". it's hardly surprising, if you think about it. i'm surprised this many people get it, honestly.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-04-2005 04:56 PM
Tumbler2002 wrote:
LoNe-R wrote:
VemaGara wrote:
I disagree.
For me, this is a game-mechanics problem. The entire flavor of PvE is lost going to PvP.
The ground game used to follow this model: shoot and kill. In the end, the ground game rejected this model. They wanted knock-down, dragout fights, and not one-hit kills. I'm for that model for the same reasons: I don't want to one-shot my enemy. I want to get into a stiff fight where time and skill, and and much less chance, determines the winner. I don't want to one-shot my enemy, I want to sweat the combat for the entire time, and have my skill and not my RE guns, to give me victory. Secondly, I want my opponent to get experience fighting me. I want him to survive long enough to get excited by the fight, and go "that was great!" even when he looses. My opponent will LEARN something, and soon grow to be a better and tougher opponent.
One-shot PvP discourages PvP. One-shot PvP makes it harder to develop better opponents. One-shot PvP puts too much emphasis on luck or surprise. For these reasons, PvP in space remains a niche playstyle. If the goal is to broaden and create a strong and fun PvP community, one-shot combat is not the way to do it.
Message Edited by VemaGara on 04-04-2005 11:35 AM
Space PvP with SKILLED individuals can already last a couple of minutes. I don't see your point.
and plus a properly outfitted Krayt, Firespray, Oppressor or even an X-wing won't die in one shot. The last time someone got the better of me was when he was in a firespray and I hit him 3 times thinking I got him, and he took me out with half armor damage!
Read the dude's post up top. They are truly words of wisdom. Beautiful, and to the point.
You are in serious denial LoNeR.
Pvp is not perfect. Deep space is always empty. All the praise it gets from people who say it's perfect doesn't mean squat when I go into deep space and it's empty. Preach all you want but the devs have the numbers and they don't lie. People aren't playing at the master level in space, pvp or pve.
A) Learn to fly
B) Get beter parts for your ship
C) Don't PVP in space
D) If you want to PVP in space see 'A' and 'B'
E) Stay on the ground
F) Play X-Wing vs. TIE
G) See 'A'
Stuff like this doesn't help anything and it's the best way to get exactly what you don't want. Find a solution that makes the majority happy, otherwise you'll be the one doing choices C-G.
what do you know about the majority? your position isn't even the majority on this very thread protesting PVP damage.
fact: significantly less players play space frequently than their ground pounding counterparts
fact: there is no point whatsoever to space pvp save bragging rights
fact: you can get faction on the ground without danger of PVP
given those FACTS alone it is astounding that there is even PVP at all.
hey, lets have some more facts:
fact: deep space is not empty 24/7
fact: some servers have very active PVP.
fact: numerous mechanics that affect PVP are still rediculously broken and you have no idea what will happen to PVP after they are fixed.
the post you quoted was correct and it is good advice. the last FACT is that people who hate the amount of damage done in PVP right now are the same people who cannot grasp a substantial portion of the requisite knowledge to be marginally successful in space pvp. it was bound to happen. not everyone can be good at things, the important part is that the devs recognize that when the people who aren't good complain, they shouldn't be listened to.
Thradd wrote:
Saddly, that Reb pilot and my dogfighting buddy is leaving the game soon. Looks like I'll have to make a pilot on Kauri and see if I can't get Lone-R to adjust his sig a bit
i'm surprised this many people get it, honestly.Message Edited by quadpers0n on 04-04-2005 04:56 PM
I "got this" early on, but then I drifted away. I converted over. The more that I put "everyone's fun" as important, the more the system needs changes. I'm not dissing anyone for LIKING this type of PvP. I do get the challenge. But what's good for the game? That makes me pause. That's what got me to change camps away from this camp.