Pilot Archive
Thread: Pondering a new implementation of E-pulse
LeaphChausew wrote:As I said. All Epulse needs is a warning to the target pilot along the lines of 'Incoming Missile' only this time it'll be "Warning! Imminent energy surge!"
I'd personally love to see it removed from pvp as in my oppinion, it has no place in that field and whenever I've seen it being used, it has been as a grieifing tactic. I'd never use it and I even have a Freelance alt atm.
But anyway, a warning along with a delay of say, five seconds after the warning (warning flashes on targets screen when the epulser activates the command) will allow the target to get out of epulse range before it destroys their ship. The epulser will have to try and keep their target within the Epulse zone during this time so it kind of adds a slight skill element to it. Personally, I still think even with that implemented, Epulse would be too powerful/easy command to use in pvp but I've noticed from my own complaining against the command that noone is ever going to agree. A lot of people dislike it as much as I, but too, there is a core of pilots who seem to defend it to the last, so I offer what I just descriibed as a suggestion. It'd at least provide a slight chance to the target player to get out of the way.
At first, I didn't think this would go far enough. Then, I thought it might provide an answer to the biggest problem with epulse, which is you don't know when it's coming and it hits automatically. After still more self-debate, I'm back to thinking it's not enough--it's sooort of a counter, but not really, is it? Five seconds is enough time to try to boost out of range, but if your opponent has a faster ship, you're still in some pretty hot water. It's just a total outlier from every other part of JTL, which is about landing shots based on skill and luck (much of which is generated from skill) or, in the rare case of "automatic" hits, like missiles, can either be chaffed away or soaked up without certain death. Just trying to boost away, though, there's nothing certain about that. Epulse is still going to be regularly lethal when employed by a skilled pilot, particularly if he's built his ship to take advantage of its anomalously effective qualities.
You might argue if your opponent has a faster ship and/or faster reflexes he's probably going to kill you anyway, but that "probably" is huge. It's pretty much the linchpin of JTL. Any fix that doesn't address that issue, then, is too much of a compromise to be considered a fix, and is still going to result in the same arguments down the road.
I've been debating epulse in a lot of arenas over a very long time now, and I still haven't seen much in the way of support for it other than 1) it's in-game, spend your time building strategies instead of complaining, and 2) nerfing sucks.
I don't think the former is relevant, and while the latter's most definitely true, that shouldn't prevent changes from being made when those changes are in good faith for the game. Considering epulse would be a ridiculous skill on the ground, let alone in space where maybe 1-2% of your shots land in PVP, I think it needs a stronger defense than that to justify its place in space.
TomoRainer wrote:
LeaphChausew wrote:
As I said. All Epulse needs is a warning to the target pilot along the lines of 'Incoming Missile' only this time it'll be "Warning! Imminent energy surge!"
I'd personally love to see it removed from pvp as in my oppinion, it has no place in that field and whenever I've seen it being used, it has been as a grieifing tactic. I'd never use it and I even have a Freelance alt atm.
But anyway, a warning along with a delay of say, five seconds after the warning (warning flashes on targets screen when the epulser activates the command) will allow the target to get out of epulse range before it destroys their ship. The epulser will have to try and keep their target within the Epulse zone during this time so it kind of adds a slight skill element to it. Personally, I still think even with that implemented, Epulse would be too powerful/easy command to use in pvp but I've noticed from my own complaining against the command that noone is ever going to agree. A lot of people dislike it as much as I, but too, there is a core of pilots who seem to defend it to the last, so I offer what I just descriibed as a suggestion. It'd at least provide a slight chance to the target player to get out of the way.
At first, I didn't think this would go far enough. Then, I thought it might provide an answer to the biggest problem with epulse, which is you don't know when it's coming and it hits automatically. After still more self-debate, I'm back to thinking it's not enough--it's sooort of a counter, but not really, is it? Five seconds is enough time to try to boost out of range, but if your opponent has a faster ship, you're still in some pretty hot water. It's just a total outlier from every other part of JTL, which is about landing shots based on skill and luck (much of which is generated from skill) or, in the rare case of "automatic" hits, like missiles, can either be chaffed away or soaked up without certain death. Just trying to boost away, though, there's nothing certain about that. Epulse is still going to be regularly lethal when employed by a skilled pilot, particularly if he's built his ship to take advantage of its anomalously effective qualities.
You might argue if your opponent has a faster ship and/or faster reflexes he's probably going to kill you anyway, but that "probably" is huge. It's pretty much the linchpin of JTL. Any fix that doesn't address that issue, then, is too much of a compromise to be considered a fix, and is still going to result in the same arguments down the road.
I've been debating epulse in a lot of arenas over a very long time now, and I still haven't seen much in the way of support for it other than 1) it's in-game, spend your time building strategies instead of complaining, and 2) nerfing sucks.
I don't think the former is relevant, and while the latter's most definitely true, that shouldn't prevent changes from being made when those changes are in good faith for the game. Considering epulse would be a ridiculous skill on the ground, let alone in space where maybe 1-2% of your shots land in PVP, I think it needs a stronger defense than that to justify its place in space.
On ground it's called Last Ditch 
Both are extremely cheap skills, both are equally used. Now all the privateers or smugglers will probably jump in to complain how EP3 or LD are "ok" skills... but they aren't.
That being said, my alt is privateer, so it's not like I'm jealous or what.. it's just cheap /shrug.
TomoRainer wrote:
Now, if Last Ditch were truly analogous to epulse, it would automatically kill everyone within a 32-meter radius while only dropping your HAM about halfway.
Furthermore, you wouldn't be able to kite a smuggler; you'd only be able to shoot at them while you were running toward them, getting ever closer to that 32-meter range.
Furthermore, if Last Ditch were at all like epulse, your HAM would only drop halfway and your opponent would only be able to hit you once a minute or so, maybe twice in a minute if he gets lucky.
The risks, rewards, and results aren't at all similar to anything on the ground, and while it's an unsupportable claim for me to make, I'm certain if any ground-based skill were even close to the way epulse works in the context of space, it would have been nerfed ages ago.
A smuggler with a rifle can hit you at 64m.
A smuggler with a pistol and the ranged arms can hit you at 50m-
A smuggler with rifle and ranged arms can hit you at 80m.
Last Ditch isn't area, BUT can (actually must) be done when you're nearly dead. So basically, you can be the best pvper with best equipment, you can beat the smuggler and maybe never have to heal, but then when he's about to die /last ditch.. and if it hits you are dead... no matter how good your armor is.
I'm not going to hijack this thread nor to call for a LD nerf, but since you have stated that there isn't such an overpowered skill on ground, I've just pointed out that LD works almost like EP3: no skills required, push the button if you're getting owned. The only difference is that EP3 always hits while LD might miss.
And in my opinion is wrong to compare the fact that you rarely hit in space PvP, because in space a couple of shots are enough to kill almost any player ships (couple REd lvl8 shots, for example), while on ground it takes A LOT more to kill an opponent.. this is why the one-shot kill LD is overpowered, just like EP3 is overpowered and cheap.
That epulse can wipe you out in a single hit, without the chance of a counter, without even placing the user at significant risk--yes, draining all your shields is dangerous, but far from a sure death when you're able to shunt them back before any opponents who've survived are able to land a hit on you--is so contrary to the twitch-based system it's almost more puzzling than frustrating.
In my mind, the process of epulsing someone needs to be brought in line with that ideology--to a skill that, much like the PVP system itself, can be nasty, brutish, and short, but can also be avoided or weathered by a good pilot in a good ship.
TomoRainer wrote:
The fact you hit so rarely in space PVP is integral to why I feel epulse is out of place in JTL. A fight between two skilled pilots can last five, ten, fifteen minutes, with each landing only a handful of shots in all that time. I've seen single pilots last for five minutes against 4-6 hardened PVPers at once--and kill them all.
That epulse can wipe you out in a single hit, without the chance of a counter, without even placing the user at significant risk--yes, draining all your shields is dangerous, but far from a sure death when you're able to shunt them back before any opponents who've survived are able to land a hit on you--is so contrary to the twitch-based system it's almost more puzzling than frustrating.
In my mind, the process of epulsing someone needs to be brought in line with that ideology--to a skill that, much like the PVP system itself, can be nasty, brutish, and short, but can also be avoided or weathered by a good pilot in a good ship.
Hold on tomo. You have obviously never been a freelancer or you would know that when Epulse 3 is used it drains everything in the capacitor, and all shields. My shields are 2433/2433 right now not RE'd at a recharge rate of I think 11. My capacitor while overcharged fills to 1879. Shunting shields drains from the capacitor as well so if I do an Epulse 3 I have to wait until my capacitor fills before I can shunt them about full again. so heres how it breaks down
Pilot Epulse's, Lets say 4 of 6 players are killed clean and the other two are undamaged and still combat worthy. It may take them about 5 - 10 seconds to catch up with me after I hit them with it. Shields and capacitor are 0. With my DI I need to wait 10 - 15 seconds to do another command, while i am waiting my capacitor while overcharged will charge to about 1200 before I can shunt shields and it give me a good shield defense again, then I am going to have to wait another 10 - 15 seconds for my capacitor to charge again to the point where i can engage you without draining my capacitor to 0 due to the constant firing.
Now from my count thats about25 - 35 seconds you have to engage me without needing to worry about being counter attacked and my defenses are severely degraded. With 2 of you against an M22 Krayt which is a tank as far as manueverability and handling goes you should be able to finish me off unless I have the skill to out manuever you even in the tank.
So basically what will win me the fight is Epulse to a certain degree but I still need to have the skill to dispatch the remaining 2 enemy.
My risks are greater then you make them out to be. Epulse 3 is not an "I win" button. It is only an I win button if the player is a wuss and uses it against a single enemy. Only a fool or a **edit** uses epulse 3 because it should only be used as a last ditch attempt not a first ditch. Any master pilot with a good head on thier shoulders will use at the most Epulse 2. It will not drain everything and still leave you enough defenses to get through the battle. You never abandon all your defenses because it may not work. There is not enough time even with a 9.7 DI to get back in the battle without further crippling damage to my ship.
I am sorry if you got knocked out in 1 Epulse before. I can guarantee it was not me who did it. Every pilot deserves the "last ditch" command. I admit I haven't done much PvPing in space but thats not due to the lack of going overt its due to the lack of other people to go overt. The few PvP battles I have won have either been from A) Strategy and manuevering, or B) My opponent trying to run in a straight line and I catch em.
MasterSad wrote:
I feel it should be lmore like an escape tool for freelancers... like disabling weapon systems or something...
Let me piggy back on that for a minute and sorry for the double post. That does sound like a good alternative however thats good for the freelancer vs the 6 enemy aces that needs a quick escape... how I see that being used to an unfair advantage however is a group of freelancers against say 1 or 2 rebel/imperials just to gang bang em.
To make it a non leathal skill make it disable all droid commands on all ships in a certain radius including your own so the only option who have is to outrun and hyperspace. Now that I think of it though a group member can easily tell his friends "get behind me about 100m so I can epulse him, take out his weapons and while him and I are disabled you finish him". There really is no way to balance it but like I said EVERY pilot deserves a last ditch for those occasions when they will need it. Yes there are ways to take advantage but what can you do except become a freelancer yourself.
TomoRainer wrote:
The fact you hit so rarely in space PVP is integral to why I feel epulse is out of place in JTL. A fight between two skilled pilots can last five, ten, fifteen minutes, with each landing only a handful of shots in all that time. I've seen single pilots last for five minutes against 4-6 hardened PVPers at once--and kill them all.
That epulse can wipe you out in a single hit, without the chance of a counter, without even placing the user at significant risk--yes, draining all your shields is dangerous, but far from a sure death when you're able to shunt them back before any opponents who've survived are able to land a hit on you--is so contrary to the twitch-based system it's almost more puzzling than frustrating.
In my mind, the process of epulsing someone needs to be brought in line with that ideology--to a skill that, much like the PVP system itself, can be nasty, brutish, and short, but can also be avoided or weathered by a good pilot in a good ship.
I bet the player who killed the 4-6 PvPers was flying a Jedi Starfighter and even then I'd have a hard time believing the other 4-6 pilots were worth a damn.
Take ANY freelancer ship and square it off against even a poorly skilled pilot in a JSF and the JSF will win each and every time, in a matter of seconds. You have to be a VERY skilled freelancer pilot with fast fire experimented missiles facing a really bad JSF pilot in order to have decent odds of winning the fight.
I fly the Vaksai and I win roughly 80% of my fights against any other ship except the JSF and I'm probably one of the very few pilots thatuses actual air combat tactics too. I only have crafted parts in my ship at the moment too. Against a JSF, I might as well just press the self-destruct button and save myself the time and wasted ordnance.
The fact is the JSF can out-turn any freelancer ship and while out-turning it, the JSF pilot can also "slide" so that he's still in a tight turn while at the same time pointing his guns back toward you. The JSF also has a tiny "hit" box and the Vaksai has a hit box the size of a barn door.
If I were a JSF pilot and was used to winning every fight and bragging about my "skill", I would also want to get rid of Epulse, as it is the only tactic that can negate my tight turning ability, slidingand close-in dogfightingtactic. I truly wonder how much actual skill is involved when piloting a JSF and not just that the ship outclasses everything else out there.
Also, with a decent RE'd gun, it only takes one shot to take out a freelancer's reactor. Hell, you can do it with a regular crafted blaster. So, if your ship completely outperforms a freelancer ship, and you have a one-shot kill weapon and a target the size of a barn door to aim at, then the only real difference between that and the Epulse command is that you have to jiggle your mouse a little bit and have rudimentary hand-eye coordination before you press the "kill" button. At least for a single target.
The mouse jiggle and basic hand-eye coordination apparently translates into "piloting skill".
How many of you do anything other than the usual circle jerk? Anyone besides me do Immelman maneuvers, modified Yo Yos, barrel rolls, Split S, Rollaways, etc.? I've even developed my own modifications tocombat maneuvers since we don't have to worry about energy conservation for maintaining speed in the game.
And yes, I've made a few JSF pilots suck vaccuum, but not many, and I can make them work very hard for their kills. However, any wins I posted were due to surprising the JSF pilot by breaking out of a circle jerk with one of the above maneuvers and confusing him long enough for me to get a missile lock and shove a flaming di1do up his poopchute.
Once when I did that I got a nasty tell from the JSF pilot bitching at me for using missiles, instead of just blasters, like a supposedly "skilled" pilot would do. I made a mental note to give him the Epulse treatment in our next fight. Blasters are practically useless against a ship with a hitbox the size of a pinprick.
As I've mentioned before in another post, (re-posted below for reference), I don't usually use Epulse in DS but only because there's not enough players there as it is and I don't want to make all the skilled pilots cry, not because I have any problem with the ability itself. However, you are invited to use it against me in a fight if you have the ability. You won't hear me complain.
The following is an earlier post that I've reposted here for reference:
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First of all, I'm a very long-time player (since Beta) and I've been in space since JTL. I've started playing a lot in Deep Space in PvP for a couple of months now. When in Deep Space, I do not go anonymous. I WANT people to find me. I'm also a freelancer flying a Vaksai.
I'm an above-average dogfighter, knowledgeable about air (space) combat tactics. Facing anything other than JSFs, my kill ratio is around 70-80%. I use one blaster and Proton IV missiles. Every component in my ship is crafted. Nothing is re-engineered at the moment.
In my opinion....
The /launchmissile is an obvious bug and should be fixed or barred from PvP. I prefer fixed.
The Epulse ability is a valid freelancer ability and a valid tactic in certain circumstances. If you use this ability in PvP and miss, then you WILL suck vaccuum. Leaving your ship with no energy and no shields in a PvP fight is the kiss of death.
The Epulse is a high-risk countermeasure to the JSF and the tight turning battles. This ability makes the freelancer a deadly close-quarters opponent. That's what pisses the JSF pilots off so much. They're used to owning everything in the sky with their maneuverability because the JSF basically outclasses any starfighter out there.
The countermeasure to the Epulse is very easy and costs nothing. Just don't get within 300m. If your ship carries missiles, no problem. If you're in a JSF where you depend on being close to your enemy and buzzing around like a bumble bee, well, time to try new tactics.
When other pilots complain about it, what I hear is "... I want you to fight with one ability tied behind your back because I don't want to change my tactics. Oh, and you're a bad pilot.... It's ok that you freelancers fly a barndoor in space. It's ok that I happen to have a JSF that will fly rings around you any day of the week. But YOU, you dirty freelancer you, you're not allowed a countermeasure. And you freelancers that use it are rotten pilots whereas I, unwilling to adapt my tactics to a different opponent, well, I am still the l33t pilot."
Here's my message to all the whiners: The Epulse ability is a valid ability for a Freelancer. I encourage all freelancers to use it freely, including against me if you're so aligned. You won't hear me complain about it. To all you whiners that call it a "one button win" cheap shot, I'd like to remind you that in almost every instance where I've been blown apart in Deep Space, it was with a single blaster bolt, sometimes just a lucky shot from a sprayer too. Your left mouse button would qualify as the "one button win".
With that said, however, I have refrained from using the Epulse ability for a while now in PvP, although I have used it before. The reason for this is that it's hard enough to find Players to come to DS to fight as it is. If I have to fly my barndoor and fight with one ability tied behind my back to keep the "good" pilots from crying, then I'll do that for now.
For any freelancer pilot who is Imperial aligned who comes to face me in Deep Space, let 'er rip. You might hear a "D'oh" from me the first time you catch me with it but you won't hear me complain. You WILL see me again though with my tactics adapted to the threat. To me, THAT's the definition of a good pilot.
thegame350 wrote:Pilot Epulse's, Lets say 4 of 6 players are killed clean and the other two are undamaged and still combat worthy. It may take them about 5 - 10 seconds to catch up with me after I hit them with it. Shields and capacitor are 0. With my DI I need to wait 10 - 15 seconds to do another command, while i am waiting my capacitor while overcharged will charge to about 1200 before I can shunt shields and it give me a good shield defense again, then I am going to have to wait another 10 - 15 seconds for my capacitor to charge again to the point where i can engage you without draining my capacitor to 0 due to the constant firing.
4 players? Did you undertand you you said yoruself? You even talk like it has to be. And 10-15 seconds in a plenty of time to survive anyway even against JSFs.
So basically what will win me the fight is Epulse to a certain degree but I still need to have the skill to dispatch the remaining 2 enemy.
Remaining 2 out of SIX players. Excuse me but in such case rebel and imperial pilots also need to be able to wipe 66% of enemy PVP fleet in 1 button click.
Only a fool or a **edit** uses epulse 3 because it should only be used as a last ditch attempt not a first ditch. Any master pilot with a good head on thier shoulders will use at the most Epulse 2. It will not drain everything and still leave you enough defenses to get through the battle.
It seems to be that 'fools' as you call them have no problem using this as attack as first ditch they dont' care as long as it works. You can say there are honorable and dishonorable pilots but that's not the point of discussion. The point is not how many you will have to fight later the point is how many you can kill with using zero skill.
I am sorry if you got knocked out in 1 Epulse before. I can guarantee it was not me who did it. Every pilot deserves the "last ditch" command.
But current game mechanics does not make it a last ditch. And as long as it is so it will be abused.
AzidarNath wrote:
I bet the player who killed the 4-6 PvPers was flying a Jedi Starfighter and even then I'd have a hard time believing the other 4-6 pilots were worth a damn.
Not necessarily. Take Vaksai, put LVL10 speed optimised engine , heavy shields and heavy capacitor and you have instant killing machine which outruns any JSF.
MasterSad wrote:
AzidarNath wrote:
I bet the player who killed the 4-6 PvPers was flying a Jedi Starfighter and even then I'd have a hard time believing the other 4-6 pilots were worth a damn.
Not necessarily. Take Vaksai, put LVL10 speed optimised engine , heavy shields and heavy capacitor and you have instant killing machine which outruns any JSF.
after seeing tomo fly he could probaby do it in an interceptor