Pilot Archive
Thread: No good engines fit in a fighter anymore
lund0529 wrote:What bothers me is that engine speed performance doesn't take ship mass into account. A 70 rated engine can push a 100K mass ship to the same speed as a 50K mass ship.What they need to do is put in an "inverse mass multiplier". The heavier your ship is, the slower it's going to go on that engine. As an example, take that 70 speed engine. Now assume a multipler such as ship mass over 100K and divide the engine speed by that number to get a new effective rating.(70.0 Engine Rating)/(50K ship mass/100) = 70.0/0.5 = 70.0*2.0 = 140 Effective Speed.The same engine in a ship twice as heavy would be:(70.0 Engine Rating)/(100K ship mass/100) = 70.0/1.0 = 70.0*1.0 = 70 Effective Speed.Similarly, a 200K mass ship would be:(70.0 Engine Rating)/(200K ship mass/100) = 70.0/2.0 = 70.0*0.5 = 35 Effective Speed.It just makes sense to me that putting the same amount of power behind less mass should push it a lot faster. Numbers would need tweaking, and I'm sure there's a better way to simplify it, but you get the idea...
This, by far, is the best idea I have seen regarding how to potentially fix this issue. It is simple in that it involves nothing more on the player's part beyond what it already expected, that is getting components to fit into a starfighter with the limit of Mass and Energy requirements. It is simple in that it doesn't require tons of additional coding and database work for the Developers as well.
I can completely stand behind this recomendation.
Craxus wrote:
Max speed is a big factor. It allows you to disengage and engage. Also it can give you the distance necessary to make your turns at slower speeds.
Think of it this way in your longpig you can joust a target, instead of turning just hit your boosters and out run it. Get far enough away to turn around and do it again.
This is only 1 example.
Didn't the NPCs in joust mode teach you the ineffectiveness of such a tactic? Why would you adopt a tactic that failed miserably for the NPCs? When they jousted me, the NPCs rarely survived the first pass. Tie-Advanced usually lived long enough to make a 2nd pass. Jousting only made them easier to hit
1st_Viduus wrote:
No Rhysen I never do.
Speed matters when in Kessel or DS my Advanced pushing 1254 speed *just* keeps up with an X-Wing or an A-Wing, because the AI is programmed to travel as fast as it can, or as fast as you can, both of which are always at least asfast as you can go, usually faster.
In PvP - hah. When an Oppressor can fit a PYR 75+ MaxSpeed 100+, your little fighter barely stands a chance unless you have an old RE 92.2, or one HECK of a set of PYR stats on a made engine.
Rhysen wrote:
Craxus wrote:
Max speed is a big factor. It allows you to disengage and engage. Also it can give you the distance necessary to make your turns at slower speeds.
Think of it this way in your longpig you can joust a target, instead of turning just hit your boosters and out run it. Get far enough away to turn around and do it again.
This is only 1 example.
Didn't the NPCs in joust mode teach you the ineffectiveness of such a tactic? Why would you adopt a tactic that failed miserably for the NPCs? When they jousted me, the NPCs rarely survived the first pass. Tie-Advanced usually lived long enough to make a 2nd pass. Jousting only made them easier to hit
1st_Viduus wrote:
No Rhysen I never do.
Speed matters when in Kessel or DS my Advanced pushing 1254 speed *just* keeps up with an X-Wing or an A-Wing, because the AI is programmed to travel as fast as it can, or as fast as you can, both of which are always at least asfast as you can go, usually faster.
In PvP - hah. When an Oppressor can fit a PYR 75+ MaxSpeed 100+, your little fighter barely stands a chance unless you have an old RE 92.2, or one HECK of a set of PYR stats on a made engine.
Operative words: "AI is programmed". The AI is deficient and you're relying on that deficiency. Worse, you're asking for better tools to further minimalize the challenge presented by the deficient AI. As for my 'little fighter' barely standing a chance, that'd depend entirely on the other pilot.
If he's as dependant on his targets having the AI's deficiencies as you appear to be, not a problem. Guess we'll see what turns out when the non-PvPers who've flown solely against AI opponents start populating Deep Space.
I agree, the AI is deficient in many ways.
You still won't catch me PvP-ing in JtL until they make it some semblance of "fun". Lag-Fest in DS against other players who do you away in one shot / you do them away in one shot -- is not my idea of fun.
Which is a shame, because in other space 'sims' I played, I mastered both. Not #1, but definitely top 10~ish.
Your remark about depending on pilot skill is entirely accurate - and I'm presuming equal skills relative to ship type when making the comparison.
What is up with you man. Did you see the NPCs fire at you with full guns 3 or 4 times a second, because I sure didn't. Jousting is very effective. I don't get how you can think that its a failure for someone in a heavier slow turning ship to joust a smaller slower ship. IT IS EXACTLY WHY JOUSTING FAILED FOR THE AI, BUT WORKED FOR YOU. IF I have a ship with 2.6k shields, 4gun ports, 2 missile slot you, a 1500 top speed, and turn like a pig you better believe IM going to get that little gnat of an interceptor to joust me. And he will have too since Im so much fast he has no choice.
1st_Viduus wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Craxus wrote:
Max speed is a big factor. It allows you to disengage and engage. Also it can give you the distance necessary to make your turns at slower speeds.
Think of it this way in your longpig you can joust a target, instead of turning just hit your boosters and out run it. Get far enough away to turn around and do it again.
This is only 1 example.
Didn't the NPCs in joust mode teach you the ineffectiveness of such a tactic? Why would you adopt a tactic that failed miserably for the NPCs? When they jousted me, the NPCs rarely survived the first pass. Tie-Advanced usually lived long enough to make a 2nd pass. Jousting only made them easier to hit
1st_Viduus wrote:
No Rhysen I never do.
Speed matters when in Kessel or DS my Advanced pushing 1254 speed *just* keeps up with an X-Wing or an A-Wing, because the AI is programmed to travel as fast as it can, or as fast as you can, both of which are always at least asfast as you can go, usually faster.
In PvP - hah. When an Oppressor can fit a PYR 75+ MaxSpeed 100+, your little fighter barely stands a chance unless you have an old RE 92.2, or one HECK of a set of PYR stats on a made engine.
Operative words: "AI is programmed". The AI is deficient and you're relying on that deficiency. Worse, you're asking for better tools to further minimalize the challenge presented by the deficient AI. As for my 'little fighter' barely standing a chance, that'd depend entirely on the other pilot.
If he's as dependant on his targets having the AI's deficiencies as you appear to be, not a problem. Guess we'll see what turns out when the non-PvPers who've flown solely against AI opponents start populating Deep Space.
I agree, the AI is deficient in many ways.
You still won't catch me PvP-ing in JtL until they make it some semblance of "fun". Lag-Fest in DS against other players who do you away in one shot / you do them away in one shot -- is not my idea of fun.
Which is a shame, because in other space 'sims' I played, I mastered both. Not #1, but definitely top 10~ish.
Your remark about depending on pilot skill is entirely accurate - and I'm presuming equal skills relative to ship type when making the comparison.
Message Edited by Craxus on 12-03-2004 03:54 PM
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 12-03-2004 06:09 PM
lund0529 wrote:What bothers me is that engine speed performance doesn't take ship mass into account. A 70 rated engine can push a 100K mass ship to the same speed as a 50K mass ship.What they need to do is put in an "inverse mass multiplier". The heavier your ship is, the slower it's going to go on that engine. As an example, take that 70 speed engine. Now assume a multipler such as ship mass over 100K and divide the engine speed by that number to get a new effective rating.(70.0 Engine Rating)/(50K ship mass/100) = 70.0/0.5 = 70.0*2.0 = 140 Effective Speed.The same engine in a ship twice as heavy would be:(70.0 Engine Rating)/(100K ship mass/100) = 70.0/1.0 = 70.0*1.0 = 70 Effective Speed.Similarly, a 200K mass ship would be:(70.0 Engine Rating)/(200K ship mass/100) = 70.0/2.0 = 70.0*0.5 = 35 Effective Speed.It just makes sense to me that putting the same amount of power behind less mass should push it a lot faster. Numbers would need tweaking, and I'm sure there's a better way to simplify it, but you get the idea...
I really like this, would be especially nice if it used actual mass of the ship as opposed to max chassis mass.
Craxus wrote:
What is up with you man. Did you see the NPCs fire at you with full guns 3 or 4 times a second, because I sure didn't. Jousting is very effective. I don't get how you can think that its a failure for someone in a heavier slow turning ship to joust a smaller slower ship. IT IS EXACTLY WHY JOUSTING FAILED FOR THE AI, BUT WORKED FOR YOU. IF I have a ship with 2.6k shields, 4gun ports, 2 missile slot you, a 1500 top speed, and turn like a pig you better believe IM going to get that little gnat of an interceptor to joust me. And he will have too since Im so much fast he has no choice.
As for PVP skill will be the largest factor, but as people have more practice and get better at it gear will increase in importance. Just like on the ground. There is just a large curve in space.
Message Edited by Craxus on 12-03-2004 03:54 PM
Ghastman wrote:
lund0529 wrote:
What bothers me is that engine speed performance doesn't take ship mass into account. A 70 rated engine can push a 100K mass ship to the same speed as a 50K mass ship.
What they need to do is put in an "inverse mass multiplier". The heavier your ship is, the slower it's going to go on that engine. As an example, take that 70 speed engine. Now assume a multipler such as ship mass over 100K and divide the engine speed by that number to get a new effective rating.
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(50K ship mass/100) = 70.0/0.5 = 70.0*2.0 = 140 Effective Speed.
The same engine in a ship twice as heavy would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(100K ship mass/100) = 70.0/1.0 = 70.0*1.0 = 70 Effective Speed.
Similarly, a 200K mass ship would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(200K ship mass/100) = 70.0/2.0 = 70.0*0.5 = 35 Effective Speed.
It just makes sense to me that putting the same amount of power behind less mass should push it a lot faster. Numbers would need tweaking, and I'm sure there's a better way to simplify it, but you get the idea...
I really like this, would be especially nice if it used actual mass of the ship as opposed to max chassis mass.
I was just going to say the same thing, until I caught up on posts and saw you already had. That would give a reason and advantage to not filling your ship totally to the brim: a Rihkxyrk with only 100k of stuff loaded on would still maneuvre like a brick, but it would be able to go a lot faster on the straightaways. This is a beautiful idea and, I think, solves a lot of problems.
Loading two engines into a light fighter is just about the worst solution I can think of. Minmaxers like me could manipulate it to absurd extremes. Take a 40k Kihraxz: I've RE'd some VERY nice 4k mass engines. For 8k of my Kihraxz - leaving me tons of space for other equipment - I could get the max speed up to 150 very easily, and push it past 160-170 with a little effort. More importantly, the PYR values would be in the 120-130 range. Given how a Kihraxz maneuvers on 70 PYR, that would be insane and completely imbalanced.
Rhysen wrote:
Craxus wrote:
What is up with you man. Did you see the NPCs fire at you with full guns 3 or 4 times a second, because I sure didn't. Jousting is very effective. I don't get how you can think that its a failure for someone in a heavier slow turning ship to joust a smaller slower ship. IT IS EXACTLY WHY JOUSTING FAILED FOR THE AI, BUT WORKED FOR YOU. IF I have a ship with 2.6k shields, 4gun ports, 2 missile slot you, a 1500 top speed, and turn like a pig you better believe IM going to get that little gnat of an interceptor to joust me. And he will have too since Im so much fast he has no choice.
As for PVP skill will be the largest factor, but as people have more practice and get better at it gear will increase in importance. Just like on the ground. There is just a large curve in space.
Message Edited by Craxus on 12-03-2004 03:54 PM
That'll work so long as the target is a n00b or NPC. Jousting failed the NPCs for a very simple reason: they never maneuvered vertically or laterally on the inbound/outbound runs. The NPCs flew straight into/away from your guns. That's why people could do such silly things like come to a complete stop and wait for the NPC on the inbound run. They turtled up and took advantage of a target ignoring it's own capabilities. No yaw, pitch or roll.
4 guns do you no good if you can't hit the target. And you'd better believe the fighters, even at slower speed, can maneuver radically enough that a ship like the Y-Wing can't respond fast enough to land enough shots. If the pilot is an accurate shot, especially with deflection shots, you're going to lose through attrition.
Or will be showing your backside while trying to jump away.
Don't discourage him, Rhysen. Admittedly he probably won't listen to you, but wouldn't you prefer he treated you like an NPC and got popped? I sure would.
I challenge anyone who thinks top speed is everything to come play with me in my PvP scyk with 65 max speed. Not that I disagree that fighters should be faster than YT's, but it's not as big an issue as everyone seems to think.
Ghastman wrote:
lund0529 wrote:
What bothers me is that engine speed performance doesn't take ship mass into account. A 70 rated engine can push a 100K mass ship to the same speed as a 50K mass ship.
What they need to do is put in an "inverse mass multiplier". The heavier your ship is, the slower it's going to go on that engine. As an example, take that 70 speed engine. Now assume a multipler such as ship mass over 100K and divide the engine speed by that number to get a new effective rating.
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(50K ship mass/100) = 70.0/0.5 = 70.0*2.0 = 140 Effective Speed.
The same engine in a ship twice as heavy would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(100K ship mass/100) = 70.0/1.0 = 70.0*1.0 = 70 Effective Speed.
Similarly, a 200K mass ship would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(200K ship mass/100) = 70.0/2.0 = 70.0*0.5 = 35 Effective Speed.
It just makes sense to me that putting the same amount of power behind less mass should push it a lot faster. Numbers would need tweaking, and I'm sure there's a better way to simplify it, but you get the idea...
I really like this, would be especially nice if it used actual mass of the ship as opposed to max chassis mass.
That's a great addition.
Picture chucking components to get that extra bit of speed... doing the Kessel run with the smallest ship, biggest engine, minimal protection,and living through it. Now that's worthy of bragging rights (if they fix the local spawns). 