Pilot Archive
Thread: No good engines fit in a fighter anymore
Rhysen wrote:
Craxus wrote:
What is up with you man. Did you see the NPCs fire at you with full guns 3 or 4 times a second, because I sure didn't. Jousting is very effective. I don't get how you can think that its a failure for someone in a heavier slow turning ship to joust a smaller slower ship. IT IS EXACTLY WHY JOUSTING FAILED FOR THE AI, BUT WORKED FOR YOU. IF I have a ship with 2.6k shields, 4gun ports, 2 missile slot you, a 1500 top speed, and turn like a pig you better believe IM going to get that little gnat of an interceptor to joust me. And he will have too since Im so much fast he has no choice.
As for PVP skill will be the largest factor, but as people have more practice and get better at it gear will increase in importance. Just like on the ground. There is just a large curve in space.
Message Edited by Craxus on 12-03-2004 03:54 PM
That'll work so long as the target is a n00b or NPC. Jousting failed the NPCs for a very simple reason: they never maneuvered vertically or laterally on the inbound/outbound runs. The NPCs flew straight into/away from your guns. That's why people could do such silly things like come to a complete stop and wait for the NPC on the inbound run. They turtled up and took advantage of a target ignoring it's own capabilities. No yaw, pitch or roll.
4 guns do you no good if you can't hit the target. And you'd better believe the fighters, even at slower speed, can maneuver radically enough that a ship like the Y-Wing can't respond fast enough to land enough shots. If the pilot is an accurate shot, especially with deflection shots, you're going to lose through attrition.
Or will be showing your backside while trying to jump away.
Whatever dude, In about 1 month when everyones PvPing and you guys keep thinking and all are flying there bombers because anyone in a light fighter is toas you can take these tactics you think you have and throw them out the window.
You keep loking at this game like a flight sim instead of a 1st shooter. When the "gamers" show up the guys who play FPS they're going to maximize fire power and speed. All you tactic aren't going to make a difference in the world especial as the PVP damage penalty increases.
4 guns covers more area than 2 and 6 guns covers even more, 8 guns on the bwing cover a huge area with a 2 hit kill all you need is two. I will berely have to move to cover a good area.
Whatever you guys want to think you can argue all kinds wonderful stuff youthink you know, but soon you 'll be complaining why is this just like a FPS.
It was the same when the ground game started. People looked at the T21 and said this gun is over power, and people counter argue. "no you aren't fast enough as a rifleman and can't shoot accurate enough while moving to do anything."
What happened?
Craxus wrote:
Whatever dude, In about 1 month when everyones PvPing and you guys keep thinking and all are flying there bombers because anyone in a light fighter is toas you can take these tactics you think you have and throw them out the window.You keep loking at this game like a flight sim instead of a 1st shooter. When the "gamers" show up the guys who play FPS they're going to maximize fire power and speed. All you tactic aren't going to make a difference in the world especial as the PVP damage penalty increases.
4 guns covers more area than 2 and 6 guns covers even more, 8 guns on the bwing cover a huge area with a 2 hit kill all you need is two. I will berely have to move to cover a good area.
Whatever you guys want to think you can argue all kinds wonderful stuff you think you know, but soon you 'll be complaining why is this just like a FPS.
It was the same when the ground game started. People looked at the T21 and said this gun is over power, and people counter argue. "no you aren't fast enough as a rifleman and can't shoot accurate enough while moving to do anything."
What happened?
Hee hee. You're funny.
If it turns up just like a FPS I wouldn't really complain, given that I like and am quite good at FPSes as well as flight sims. However, I'm inclined to think that, y'know, given that we're flying... it's a bit more like a flight sim. I just have a personal quirk where I think that games simulating flight are a lot like flight simulators.
On a nitpicky note, your ground-combat argument may turn out to be accurate in the long run, but you're comparing a twitch game to an active-time-based dice-roll game. Seems like a logical fallacy to me.
Still, see ya in your B-wing, my friend, and I'll be in my mini [which, incidentally, has taken down faster PC oppressors and rihkxyrks and not taken a nick yet. Fortunate, since a scratch would pop me like a soap bubble].
On a note less flamey and more related to the initial topic note, my friend just RE'd a 78 speed cert 2 engine. If that's possible, I forsee that we will find much more blur between the top speeds on engines in the future. Analyzing nearly fifty engines I have in stock with an eye for top speed, I'm beginning to realise that the level caps on engine statts are more in the PYR area than speed... not that speed doesn't vary per level, but it's more common to find an obscenely fast level 3 engine than an obscenely manoeuvrable one. I wouldn't be too amazed to see RE'd 85+ cert4 engines in the near future.
1st_Viduus wrote:
lol, let me say it one last time...
game balance.
If you put 2 engines on an A-Wing, as per SWU design, you must put 4 on an X-Wing, et cetera.
I'm not complaining about anything here;we're trying to discussunbalanced ship classes, in this case, fighters, and their speeds in particular- A-Wing is just being used as an example. TIE is also a fighter, and game balance must be preserved. (And basic TIEs have neither Hyperdrive nor Shields btw - the Rebel starters do... I'm not complaining about that either, am I?)
*edit*
Further unbalancing by enhancing one shipor evenone class of shipis not the answer to this issue, since ALL the classes are out of balance, firstly, and secondly, as I said before, if you put 2 engines on an A-Wing as per spec, then you must follow suit with all other ship classes... meaning 4 on an x-wing. Which, again, is part of what invalidates the proposal.
Message Edited by 1st_Viduus on 12-03-2004 02:54 PM
NasherUK wrote:
The only engines I've found that will fit an A-wing are about 65 speed and low Y/P/R, REing it you will be lucky to get 70 because it doesnt really add that much to it. So you end up with a "high speed" fighter that is slower and less manouverable than a bomber or MP ship that can carry a high level engine with 90-100 speed and high turn stats....which doesnt make sence at all.
It will eventually just lead to everyone flying the ship with the most mass because no others will be fast enough, and thats exactly what people didnt want in beta because you eventually have everyone flyingthe same ship a.k.a "space composite". Its annoying, but it always seems SOE start off with an ok setup, then slowly screw stuff up over time, then needing to revamp the whole system and it starts again.
Message Edited by NasherUK on 12-03-2004 11:29 AM
I regularly find and have RE'd 60+ Tier 2 engines with around 1500 mass and low 60's YPR. I don't bother with tier 3+ on it becauseI am trying to make my Scyke a viable fighter (just for fun since I have no Master ship to fly and the YT ain't a single-pilot beast). I think maybe a lot of A-Wings pilots difficulties stem from trying to have all the other starship goodies AND a fast engine. You must compromise. At LEAST 50% of your A-wings and Interceptors should be reserved for your engines. That's 32K-ish mass right there. Crap Armor, middling to weak shields, a gun with a very high Vs Armor OR Shield unless you find an Uber Tier 8 cannon to stuff in her (I found an 11K once), a missile launcher to fire the opposite of your weapon, a decent-ish light capacitor (and the forums are alive with screams about high-gen low-mass/tier caps, so do it already, you only get one gun anyways!) and whatever mass you have spare after choosing those components spend on Droid interface and a booster.
But to reiterate, you cannot have your cake and a fat blaster too. Those ships are supposed to be fragile and fast. to do that you must have the greater part of it dedicated to your engine. This does not completely solve the problem here, but it will give you a better idea of WHAT you should be asking for. Which, IMO, is an increase on the YPR and Speed Multipliers. The Kihraxz (sp?) is almost right at 400/400/200, but I think the A-Wing and interceptor should be better, since they were designed to be. Say 450/450/300 with a Speed multiplier of 1.1-1.25. Would need to be tested to see if those numbers would work, but I really feel the answer to the complaints about light fighters lies in the chassis, not the components. This also has the added benefit of being easily pushable without being likely to fark up the whole shebang like altering loot tables does. And yes, thoughI hate the idea,I WOULD accept having to buy new Chassis' to get these numbers.
Edited to fix spelling and to add:
Your point about not finding engines of higher speeds is interesting, have you asked a shipwright about making a better one? Or if they might have an RE'd engine for sale of sufficient size for you? And what about your 79 speed Rewardengine? simply find 5 more tier 6 engines and you'll have it RE'd to about 82.1-82.2 engine that you can play with the other stats on by getting a selection of other engines.
Message Edited by Kinot33 on 12-03-2004 12:43 PM
Craxus wrote:
Rhysen wrote:
Craxus wrote:
What is up with you man. Did you see the NPCs fire at you with full guns 3 or 4 times a second, because I sure didn't. Jousting is very effective. I don't get how you can think that its a failure for someone in a heavier slow turning ship to joust a smaller slower ship. IT IS EXACTLY WHY JOUSTING FAILED FOR THE AI, BUT WORKED FOR YOU. IF I have a ship with 2.6k shields, 4gun ports, 2 missile slot you, a 1500 top speed, and turn like a pig you better believe IM going to get that little gnat of an interceptor to joust me. And he will have too since Im so much fast he has no choice.
As for PVP skill will be the largest factor, but as people have more practice and get better at it gear will increase in importance. Just like on the ground. There is just a large curve in space.
Message Edited by Craxus on 12-03-2004 03:54 PM
That'll work so long as the target is a n00b or NPC. Jousting failed the NPCs for a very simple reason: they never maneuvered vertically or laterally on the inbound/outbound runs. The NPCs flew straight into/away from your guns. That's why people could do such silly things like come to a complete stop and wait for the NPC on the inbound run. They turtled up and took advantage of a target ignoring it's own capabilities. No yaw, pitch or roll.
4 guns do you no good if you can't hit the target. And you'd better believe the fighters, even at slower speed, can maneuver radically enough that a ship like the Y-Wing can't respond fast enough to land enough shots. If the pilot is an accurate shot, especially with deflection shots, you're going to lose through attrition.
Or will be showing your backside while trying to jump away.
Whatever dude, In about 1 month when everyones PvPing and you guys keep thinking and all are flying there bombers because anyone in a light fighter is toas you can take these tactics you think you have and throw them out the window.
You keep loking at this game like a flight sim instead of a 1st shooter. When the "gamers" show up the guys who play FPS they're going to maximize fire power and speed. All you tactic aren't going to make a difference in the world especial as the PVP damage penalty increases.
4 guns covers more area than 2 and 6 guns covers even more, 8 guns on the bwing cover a huge area with a 2 hit kill all you need is two. I will berely have to move to cover a good area.
Whatever you guys want to think you can argue all kinds wonderful stuff youthink you know, but soon you 'll be complaining why is this just like a FPS.
It was the same when the ground game started. People looked at the T21 and said this gun is over power, and people counter argue. "no you aren't fast enough as a rifleman and can't shoot accurate enough while moving to do anything."
What happened?
It's a very simple concept here: Speed doesn't make your shots hit anything. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it.
You won't hit anything except an utter noob or NPC in a bomber class ship. Because only they are programmed to fly in straight lines. And unlike the NPCs, the smart noob will figure out doing so is a losing proposition quickly.
I am running a Tie Interceptor, i have a level 4 shield, level 4 gun, level 1 cm, a level 4 engine (1777.4 mass, spd 74), and some lighter weight armor (level 2 i think), no torp, no droid. I thought that there we had to do trade offs for all of the components and not have ships that can do everything at the best level all the time.
One thing I have noticed is that the same engine in different ships is giving me a different top end speed. the very same engine listed about does in fact move a tie bomber slower than the Interceptor.
anyhow, if I understand correctly you are upset that you can not have an a-wing that has a screaming fast engine, ultra powerful guns, shields that at top shelf and armor that will stop incoming fire like a heavier fighter? where is the balance in that?
but seriously is this what you are upset about? if it is then frankly i think you are off base.
if you are saying that you want a top end engine for you a-wing and are willing to accept a lighter gun or something else, then i agree his is fair and reasonable.
lund0529 wrote:
Ghastman wrote:
lund0529 wrote:
What bothers me is that engine speed performance doesn't take ship mass into account. A 70 rated engine can push a 100K mass ship to the same speed as a 50K mass ship.
What they need to do is put in an "inverse mass multiplier". The heavier your ship is, the slower it's going to go on that engine. As an example, take that 70 speed engine. Now assume a multipler such as ship mass over 100K and divide the engine speed by that number to get a new effective rating.
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(50K ship mass/100) = 70.0/0.5 = 70.0*2.0 = 140 Effective Speed.
The same engine in a ship twice as heavy would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(100K ship mass/100) = 70.0/1.0 = 70.0*1.0 = 70 Effective Speed.
Similarly, a 200K mass ship would be:
(70.0 Engine Rating)/(200K ship mass/100) = 70.0/2.0 = 70.0*0.5 = 35 Effective Speed.
It just makes sense to me that putting the same amount of power behind less mass should push it a lot faster. Numbers would need tweaking, and I'm sure there's a better way to simplify it, but you get the idea...
I really like this, would be especially nice if it used actual mass of the ship as opposed to max chassis mass.
That's a great addition.
Picture chucking components to get that extra bit of speed... doing the Kessel run with the smallest ship, biggest engine, minimal protection,and living through it. Now that's worthy of bragging rights (if they fix the local spawns).
It is a great idea!
*BUMP*
Of course, they'd have to introduce something like shield multipliers on the MP ships.
- MP ships - 0.5
- Basic Bombers- 0.7
- Advanced Bombers - 0.8
- Fighters - 1.0
- Fast Fighters - 1.2
- Super Fast fighters -1.5
- MP ships - 0.5
- Basic Bombers- 0.7
- Advanced Bombers - 0.8
- Fighters - 1.0
- Fast Fighters - 1.2
- Super Fast fighters -1.5