Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
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Toszik
Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:48 am
#1
There is a rather lengthy thread going on right now about how the JSF and ROTW ships are unbalanced. Instead of continuing with that post, I have started a new one in hopes that it can be used for a civil discussion about what needs to be done to help balance all the ships. Do you think anything needs to be done? If so, why. If not, why not? Let's hear what you have to say, but please try not to make it a flame fest. Don't get offended becausse someone has a different opinion than yours. Instead, just accept the fact they have a different opinion and then state what your opinion is.
In my opinion,I think that the ROTW ships are overpowered. I think The JSF/Grievous is overpowered because of the combination of high manueverablility, very small profile, and nice mass. I can live with the size of these ships, but I don't think they should have the mass they do.The Interceptor, Advanced and Awing are all prime examples of small ships meant to be agile fighters and as a result, suffer a penalty when it comes to mass. The new ships don't suffer this penalty and that is what makes them so much better. These aren't the only ones that are overpowered either. As I mentioned on page 3 ofthat other thread, I think the Heavy Xwing is overpowered as well.
One idea, to help balance ships, I had discussed with a guild mate of mine would be to restrict the max level equipment certain chassis could use. I know this is what the mass for the chassis was supposed to do, but I don't think it has done a great job especially since these new ships came out. Now this is just an example, but say for small ships like the Awing, Interceptor, Advanced, JSF/Grievous etc. they would be restricted to using level6 parts and under. Again, that is just an example and not neccesarily how I think this should be done. However, you can get the idea and I think it could help to bring things back to a more level playing field. I just don't think it is right that I can fit a level10 engine and level8 shields, armour, and 3 blasters all into my Heavy Xwing let alone some of the configurations people have in their ROTW ships. Also, a system like this could help make POB ships a little more viable to use as they would be the only ships able to use level9 and 10 equipment. As it is right now, the POB ships are nothing more than novelty items, especially in PVP. I would like to see this changed as I would love to be able to go up in my Nova with a crew and actually stand a chance.
Anyways, let's try to have a civil discussion about improving JTL for everyone instead of a bunch of flaming because you don't like what is being said. If you don't like it, post why you don't like it and what you think could be done instead. If you can't come up with a decent reply, then don't post anything as flaming does not help anything.
KaylBreinhar
Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:17 am
#2
And I disagree - I see these discussions as an attack on the very nature of the Piloting profession, led in large part by people who wish to standardize the gameplay until we're all equally screwed and space is one large goddamned zone with everyone having the same abilities and equipment. While some may have completely valid reasons for calling for the "adjustment" of a specific chassis, at the basest heart of the "discussions" are underlying mechanics leading from envy and a desire to "get even."
Gee, that sounds a lot like the ground game right now. I wonder if there's a correlation?
The only problem I have with the ROTW ships is Shipwrights were not brought into the loop involving their manufacture, which brings in ANOTHER underlying element - vindictiveness.
I'll adapt regardless of the outcome - I made do with 65k mass for six months straight. But I'll be damned if I'm going to give up something I've grown fond of simply because it's easier to call for its nerfing rather than learning to adapt yourselves.
Gee, that sounds a lot like the ground game right now. I wonder if there's a correlation?
The only problem I have with the ROTW ships is Shipwrights were not brought into the loop involving their manufacture, which brings in ANOTHER underlying element - vindictiveness.
I'll adapt regardless of the outcome - I made do with 65k mass for six months straight. But I'll be damned if I'm going to give up something I've grown fond of simply because it's easier to call for its nerfing rather than learning to adapt yourselves.
Message Edited by KaylBreinhar on 07-17-2005 05:23 AM
KaylBreinhar
Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:22 am
#3
And while your post makes a broader point than the "Nerf the JSF" guy (which I applaud you for), whose neglect to bring up the Bel-22 in his original posting immediately identified himself to me as a Rebel/Rebel sympathizer wanting to strip Imperials of something useful (he's since changed the original title of his post to a "suggestion" rather than an out and out demand/exclamation, I'll give him props for that)...
...so why stop at the JSF/Bel-22? Hell, the IGI is pretty unbalanced...as is the Advanced X-Wing. The Vaksai is pretty unbalanced, since it has the mass to carry some seriously wicked equipment...
HEY, let's NERF EVERYTHING while we're at it, then. Let's fly around space in nothing but game-provided weaponry, just as the ground game is now, again, thanks to ROTW.
...and since some people seem to be incapable of detecting it... /sarcasm
...so why stop at the JSF/Bel-22? Hell, the IGI is pretty unbalanced...as is the Advanced X-Wing. The Vaksai is pretty unbalanced, since it has the mass to carry some seriously wicked equipment...
HEY, let's NERF EVERYTHING while we're at it, then. Let's fly around space in nothing but game-provided weaponry, just as the ground game is now, again, thanks to ROTW.
...and since some people seem to be incapable of detecting it... /sarcasm
KaylBreinhar
Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:26 am
#4
Furthermore, nothing in my JSF is over L8. Even at an L7 max, I could meet or exceed my current level of effectiveness.
Somehow I've found a way to adapt to the new climate, and have succeeded in downing these oft-referred-to-as "invincible" ships. And if I can do it, maybe you can too, after a lot of adjustment, improvisation, and further work.
If I may inquire, what are you piloting credentials? Or more succinctly, how long have you been a pilot/Ace?
Somehow I've found a way to adapt to the new climate, and have succeeded in downing these oft-referred-to-as "invincible" ships. And if I can do it, maybe you can too, after a lot of adjustment, improvisation, and further work.
If I may inquire, what are you piloting credentials? Or more succinctly, how long have you been a pilot/Ace?
Toszik
Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:21 am
#5
Sheesh, did you read the part of the post that says lets try to keep this duscussion civil??? Great, you totally disagree with my opinion and you even mention to an extent why, but do you really have to act so offensive??? I did say in my post that the JSF/Grievous aren't the only ones that need adjusting and as I said, it is only an idea. I still stand by thought that something needs to be done. I have a JSF and I have "adapted" to using it and shooting it down. I have shot many down in my JSF and in my Arc and Heavy Xwing but I still think things need to be done. Why??? Well, if I fly my Heavy Xwing against a JSF, I can beat it, but against someone who knows what they are doing, my odds are very slim. Yet, if I grab my JSF and go up against that same pilot, I guarantee I will win. Sound cocky??? You bet it does but that's part of being a pilot and I have backed that up on many occassions. Oh and as to your inquiry about my credentials, that sounds like an accusation of me being a noob. Well let me tell you what they are. I mastered pilot 2 weeks after JTL was introduced and have been to deep space almost every day since getting into as much pvp as I can. I have also mastered Rebel pilot 3 times and have accumulated over 100mill prestige. Also, before this game, I played an online flight combat sim for 3 years so I kinda know what it takes to be good.
Anyways, can we please get more meaningful post going???Thanks.
ShoginArmada
Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:22 am
#6
The JSF is made out to be a uberdeath tank monster. That 90k mass doesnt help it that much at all. Really it doesnt. (I myself have a lvl 9 engine with a lvl 10 sheild with my fav gun the Boltscar[lvl 7-8ish], and after that there isnt much room for anything else)The Grevoius ships isnt hat much better than either. The new hvy ships are also fine. Their added mass is held in check pretty well. I can kill all of the above in my Tie Bomber, which is to say, they arent better than every thing else out there. While I understand some ppl can hit the smaller ships, it doesnt mean they need nerfed, missles work VERY well vs these little guys, and you should just learn to deal with that. If it works, use it, if it works better than what you have, nerf it, seems to be thethoughts here nowaday, and that just isnt right nor fair. Please think before going off on a nerf spree, for if you learn to deal with these ships over time, they wont be much different than any other ship out there when it comes to pvp. I've pvped since T3, and Ive been at is for 4 months now. I may not have been around as some ppl, but still I've learned to adapt to these new ships, and if I can, anyone should be able to do so as well.
Toszik
Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:46 am
#7
Oh yeah, wanted to mention a couple other things. First, I am not calling for a nerf even though it is pretty much the same. However, I am not being biased. I fly The Xwing, Awing, Arc, JSF and Grievous and my proposed changes would nerf my own ships too!!! Second, to kind of prove the point as to the unbalance of the smaller JSF/Grievous. One time in deep space while I was flying my Grievous, I was jumped by 6(thats right 6) Imps at the same time. Guess what?? I killed them all. Quite frankly, it was too easy too and I will say right now without hesitation, I am not that good. The only reason I was able to do this is because of the ship I was flying. Put me in any of the pre-ROTW ships and the outcome would have been different, guaranteed. Oh yeah, they also came back two more times and the results were exactly the same.
Eioen
Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:47 am
#8
I can understand the whole adapt and overcome argument, but the problem I have with the JSF/B-22/ARC is that they kill the mood. This is set during the original trilogy; Imperial vs. Rebel, TIEs vs. Xwings. These two ships have completely killed off the proper factional light fighters (A-wing/Interceptor/Advanced), and instead everyone is flying around in ships from the new films (which are immensely worse than the originals). Basically my point is that with everyone flying those fighters it just doesn't 'feel' like star wars, considering that one of SOE's objectives was to make things feel MORE like star wars, it's one major fluff up.
When someone in a B22 with a 61 PYR engine can out-turn an A-wing with a 71 PYR engine you either join up and grab one of those yourself, or you die in a turning battle.
When someone in a B22 with a 61 PYR engine can out-turn an A-wing with a 71 PYR engine you either join up and grab one of those yourself, or you die in a turning battle.
Toszik
Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:22 am
#9
One more thing I would like to add. As I have said, I fly the Heavy Xwing and I absolutely love it. However, I do think it is unblanced. I guarantee that my Heavy X against a regular Xwing with equal skilled pilots fighting against each other, that my Heavy will win 99% of the time. Also, this hurts the SW community(my alt is a SW) because who in their right mind would want to buy the regular Xwing when you can do an easy quest to get the same ship only better? This is not balance. I like the fact that there are heavier versions of existing ships, but they should have some sort of drawback to them. Like say decrease their YPR stats to make them less manueverable being that they are heaver and a heavier object shouldn't be able to manuever as well as a lighter one. Again, the new ships have all kinds of benefits, but absolutely no drawbacks and that is why I think they are unbalanced.
Eioen
Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:49 am
#10
My thoughts exactly, the ROTW ships are having your cake and eating it.
Pre-ROTW ships were balanced on the general rule that more mass = less manouverability, you now have high mass and extreme manouverability in the one ship, as well as tiny hitboxes (RG TIE/JSF).
Pre-ROTW ships were balanced on the general rule that more mass = less manouverability, you now have high mass and extreme manouverability in the one ship, as well as tiny hitboxes (RG TIE/JSF).
Message Edited by Eioen on 07-17-2005 12:50 PM
Toszik
Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:02 pm
#12
Aaahhh good point Voodez, I never thought of making the same changes to the npc ships as well. Another good idea that could help things out.
I am in the same boat as you, I would really like to see more of the more iconic ships from the original movies being used more, especially being that this game is supposed to be during that time period. On my server, I see way too many of the new ships and barely see any of the odler ones and I would love to see this change.
Again, thanks for the interesting comments.
Kryxal
Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:20 pm
#13
Also, it's tough to see how they could reduce the mass ... maybe you can't fly if it's over-mass? It might be a nasty shock, though...
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