Pilot Archive
Thread: I think some of you are missing the point of the MP ships...
DarkBShadow
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:59 am
#14
Ratape wrote:
I would like to remind DarkBShadow that Star Wars glactic fights have nothing in common with true to life dog fights. This is not supposed to be realistic in that since. The rules of Science Fiction state that any small fighter will have a helluva time taking out a larger ship unless that ship is unarmed. Why? Because the larger ship can have heavier equipment that is more powerful.
If you want a comparison in real life military terms it is more along the lines of a destroyer vs. a PT boat. Even that anology isn't very accurate. If you want to talk about bombers think about the b-wing, tie-opressor, y-wing, and the firespray. MP ships aren't bombers, they're gunboats (well, they're supposed to be to some extent).
i would like to say that i wasn't baseing this on real life combat i was basing this on Star Wars Space combat. and if you read what i said i was saying, Space combat fighter vs fighter is the way i see space combat. but fighter vs the rest are un-balanced. i was saying what the current situation was unbalanced and gave a way that it could sort of make it so fighters weren't the only thing in Space that was useful to be in when you PvP their should be tactics involeved when PvPing in space. not lets all get into fighters and see which side has he better pilot.
like i said in my last post fighter vs fighter fights are fine the way they are. could they use a sort of toneing down maybe but i like the fast pace action when in DS in these fights. only problem i have is Fighter vs any other types of ships. Fighters should have the upper edge vs bombers because bombers are slow and not as agile but if the fighter gets into the bombers range the fighter is gone. and fighters should have next to no chance vs POB ships. only a good pilot in a fighter should be able to take one out. and bombers should fair well vs POB ships but not be able to destroy one with ease. Fighters should not be the only effective ship in the sky in PvP.
Message Edited by DarkBShadow on 03-22-2005 01:00 PM
Master Swordman Forever ~ Pve wh0r3 
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Vegitaa
Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:12 pm
#15
Here's just my opinion on Multiplayer ship use.
Of course, there's the standard get an untrained crew, head to Deep Space and get owned within five minutes by an overt.... well of course PvP bites in these.. PvP in JTL is horribly borked.
As far as components.. lemme tell you that if you feel the POB ships are horribly underpowered then you are not equiping it correctly. Mine has all lvl 10 re-engineered components and I will say that it does pretty damn good with a crew of 4 or 5.
Anyways.. thread title is "I think some of you are missing the point of the MP ships..." so here's my take on it.
Find yourself 2 gunners and a copilot (copilot should be same faction as you ie Imp Pilot, Reb pilot, Nuetral pilot) so they can run the droid programs.
Get everyone buffed and armoured incase something starts spewing flaming plasma. Have repair kits (I keep crates of these onboard) readily available to that copilot.
Now, I find one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done in a POB ship is run Tier 3 or Tier 4 missions. Gunner grabs his mission, you guys all launch, then he tells you the waypoints in Groupchat.
Now thats entertainment! If you cannot complete a Tier 4 mission (or for that matter cannot take out the vette in Kessel) with your POB ship it's because you haven't spent the time to re the right components and you're probably trying to fly that thing like a fighter instead of a gun platform.
Plain and simple it's all about your gear and your pilotting tactics (note I didn't say skill). Gunners can't hit things when you're going full speed. Don't Pitch and dive... roll gently to bring guns to bear. If you are going faster than 250m than more than likely you're making your gunners job a lot harder. You have missles.. use them to take out gun batteries on the bigger ships. Take out gun5 and pull in below the vette, lower gunner provides cover while upper deals with components.
It can be done, POB ships can be a lot of fun and quite useful in JTL. You just need practice, organization, and a well trained crew.
Ratape
Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:06 pm
#16
DarkBShadow wrote:
Ratape wrote:
I would like to remind DarkBShadow that Star Wars glactic fights have nothing in common with true to life dog fights. This is not supposed to be realistic in that since. The rules of Science Fiction state that any small fighter will have a helluva time taking out a larger ship unless that ship is unarmed. Why? Because the larger ship can have heavier equipment that is more powerful.
If you want a comparison in real life military terms it is more along the lines of a destroyer vs. a PT boat. Even that anology isn't very accurate. If you want to talk about bombers think about the b-wing, tie-opressor, y-wing, and the firespray. MP ships aren't bombers, they're gunboats (well, they're supposed to be to some extent).
i would like to say that i wasn't baseing this on real life combat i was basing this on Star Wars Space combat. and if you read what i said i was saying, Space combat fighter vs fighter is the way i see space combat. but fighter vs the rest are un-balanced. i was saying what the current situation was unbalanced and gave a way that it could sort of make it so fighters weren't the only thing in Space that was useful to be in when you PvP their should be tactics involeved when PvPing in space. not lets all get into fighters and see which side has he better pilot.
like i said in my last post fighter vs fighter fights are fine the way they are. could they use a sort of toneing down maybe but i like the fast pace action when in DS in these fights. only problem i have is Fighter vs any other types of ships. Fighters should have the upper edge vs bombers because bombers are slow and not as agile but if the fighter gets into the bombers range the fighter is gone. and fighters should have next to no chance vs POB ships. only a good pilot in a fighter should be able to take one out. and bombers should fair well vs POB ships but not be able to destroy one with ease. Fighters should not be the only effective ship in the sky in PvP.Message Edited by DarkBShadow on 03-22-2005 01:00 PM
Ohhhh... I see what you're getting at now. Yes, yes, I agree with the point fighters should have no chance against POB ships. It sounded like you were refering to POB ships as bombers in your original post (as in talking like it's a B-52 with multiple guns).
Basically my stance is POB ships are worthless in PvP (and to some extent PvE) and should have their power increase. I don't mind the current quick action, quick death PvP. The only time I want it to last longer then that is when you're facing a POB ship because you can't obviously dogfight with a POB ship... at least effectively.
psikobunny, it's not my fault someone misinterpreted my post (not refering to you DarkBShadow, I'm refering to the other guy). I'm trying to stay on topic.
Message Edited by Ratape on 03-22-2005 05:08 PM
Bacon00
Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:55 pm
#17
Whoever was defending the "1-shot kill" system and claiming that there aren't any other space sims out there that don't have this, I'm afraid you are quite mistaken....
There's a MMO called Allegiance. Online space sim where every player is a real person. Basically, each game is 1 giant dogfight in space.
There are no 1-shot kills. If there are, it is considered "cheese" and is balanced out of the game by the community (Allegiance was a Microsoft owned game, but they gave up support and the community took it over). I have played a LOT of Allegiance, and for awhile there I was pretty good.... without 1-shot kills. You need MUCH more skill to win in a dogfight without 1-shot kills. You need to be good throughout the entire fight - you need to know what to do to initiat the fight, how to defend yourself if you start getting damaged, and how to escape if you feel you're losing, and how to launch missiles effectively. 1-shot kills require a fraction of that skill - you just have to be good at getting of the first shot.
If JTL ever wants to have propoer PvP, they need to DRASTICALLY tone down the damage in PvP. I'd say 75% or more. Then, and only then, will we see the true PvP champions. Because if you're good at getting off the first shot in the current system, you'll bejust as good in the new system, and there's no reason you won't win if you're asgood as you all say you are 
However, I think a lot of people have big egos and are afraid of a system that actuallyis a challange.
However, I think a lot of people have big egos and are afraid of a system that actuallyis a challange.
Ratape
Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:07 pm
#18
Bacon00 wrote:Whoever was defending the "1-shot kill" system and claiming that there aren't any other space sims out there that don't have this, I'm afraid you are quite mistaken....There's a MMO called Allegiance. Online space sim where every player is a real person. Basically, each game is 1 giant dogfight in space.There are no 1-shot kills. If there are, it is considered "cheese" and is balanced out of the game by the community (Allegiance was a Microsoft owned game, but they gave up support and the community took it over). I have played a LOT of Allegiance, and for awhile there I was pretty good.... without 1-shot kills. You need MUCH more skill to win in a dogfight without 1-shot kills. You need to be good throughout the entire fight - you need to know what to do to initiat the fight, how to defend yourself if you start getting damaged, and how to escape if you feel you're losing, and how to launch missiles effectively. 1-shot kills require a fraction of that skill - you just have to be good at getting of the first shot.If JTL ever wants to have propoer PvP, they need to DRASTICALLY tone down the damage in PvP. I'd say 75% or more. Then, and only then, will we see the true PvP champions. Because if you're good at getting off the first shot in the current system, you'll be just as good in the new system, and there's no reason you won't win if you're as good as you all say you are
OMG Allegiance was probably the best Multiplayer space sim I have EVER played. I was sad when they gave up official support and I was sadder to see the community slowly die out. That game was very, very difficult. It took a lot of work to excel at that game. It did take a while to kill people in that game, and man it was rough. Lots of aerial acrobatics. Of course there was a lot of variety in the different ships and the play styles, and the bombers had to be defended by a fighter escort. Man 'o man.
But anyway, as psikobunny said, we gotta make sure we stay on topic. I just couldn't resist remembering such a great game!
Message Edited by Ratape on 03-22-2005 06:08 PM
Feynan
Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:09 pm
#19
MP ships are fun, yes, that is why people like them. The problem is that dying is not fun, and it's much easier to do when in an MP ship because 1) you're a much larger target and2) you have less maneuverability, yet all the while you have the same shields/armor/damage/etc as the smaller ships. That's not right.
MP ships need:
-turrets to be fixed so that they aren't so hard to aim
-addition of another 2 armor slots and another 2 shield slots (so 3 of each in total, and basically they stack together). This makes sense because you need at least 3 people to do any real damage in an MP ship, so it should have the defenses of3 people (if not more, since it still has the disability of being larger and less maneuverable.
-being able to reload ordnance while in-flight (seems like a small change, but this is where MP ships can really do their damage, and being able to sustain this damage is what will make them a real threat).
Do that and things will be a lot different.
Oh, and I agree, PvP damage should be reduced by 75% (in total, not in addition to the 25% reduction there already is), just like the ground game. Space battles are NO FUN if you die before you know what's going on. There's no strategy in that. There's no dogfighting. There's no chance to use the abilities you've worked so hard to earn.
TehyrPhoenix
Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:35 pm
#20
Ok, I fly both an X-wing and a Nova. My guns on my X-Wing do 2800 damage each and my nova do about 3800 each. Now, that is about 25% stronget per shot on the nova. The armour is a similar ratio as well. Now look at the enemy ships in space. The damage and defence ratios of enemy ships is much higher. a T5 tie advance takes out my shields in about ten hits. a T5 decimator does this in one or two, that is about 200% stronger than the advance. this is similar with defences. The problem is that we are only able to use fighter gear on our MP ships. we have 5 million mass. There is no sport in building the ship. we put on the best fighter craft we can find and only hit about 600k mass max.
Plus, look at star ways lore. The millenium falcon doesn't use starfighter armour, it had armour stripped from a star destroyer. It doesnt use blaster cannons, it uses Quad Turbolasers. Its shields are also Cruiser Grade. Now, yes this is a highly modified ship, but are you going to argue that player ships arent. I have at least 7 different shipyads' parts on my ship.
The only way to fix the unballance is to make new 'capital grade' loot. Lets not waste that 5 million mass. Drop us some Quad Turbolasers off of the corvette that have 100k mass and deal 4k-8k damage. Give me some some armour off of the star destroyer that has 200k mass and 10000 hitpoints instead of a measly 2000. I fear attacking a non PC Decimator. Taking a lone fighter against a gunboat is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Fighters own MP ships because we are flying a bigger target with far less maneuver, but we are restricted to the same equipment that the fighters have. 'Capital grade' loot is the easiest way to ballance space combat.
Plus, look at star ways lore. The millenium falcon doesn't use starfighter armour, it had armour stripped from a star destroyer. It doesnt use blaster cannons, it uses Quad Turbolasers. Its shields are also Cruiser Grade. Now, yes this is a highly modified ship, but are you going to argue that player ships arent. I have at least 7 different shipyads' parts on my ship.
The only way to fix the unballance is to make new 'capital grade' loot. Lets not waste that 5 million mass. Drop us some Quad Turbolasers off of the corvette that have 100k mass and deal 4k-8k damage. Give me some some armour off of the star destroyer that has 200k mass and 10000 hitpoints instead of a measly 2000. I fear attacking a non PC Decimator. Taking a lone fighter against a gunboat is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Fighters own MP ships because we are flying a bigger target with far less maneuver, but we are restricted to the same equipment that the fighters have. 'Capital grade' loot is the easiest way to ballance space combat.
Teterack
Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:04 pm
#21
TehyrPhoenix wrote:
Ok, I fly both an X-wing and a Nova. My guns on my X-Wing do 2800 damage each and my nova do about 3800 each. Now, that is about 25% stronget per shot on the nova. The armour is a similar ratio as well. Now look at the enemy ships in space. The damage and defence ratios of enemy ships is much higher. a T5 tie advance takes out my shields in about ten hits. a T5 decimator does this in one or two, that is about 200% stronger than the advance. this is similar with defences. The problem is that we are only able to use fighter gear on our MP ships. we have 5 million mass. There is no sport in building the ship. we put on the best fighter craft we can find and only hit about 600k mass max.
Plus, look at star ways lore. The millenium falcon doesn't use starfighter armour, it had armour stripped from a star destroyer. It doesnt use blaster cannons, it uses Quad Turbolasers. Its shields are also Cruiser Grade. Now, yes this is a highly modified ship, but are you going to argue that player ships arent. I have at least 7 different shipyads' parts on my ship.
The only way to fix the unballance is to make new 'capital grade' loot. Lets not waste that 5 million mass. Drop us some Quad Turbolasers off of the corvette that have 100k mass and deal 4k-8k damage. Give me some some armour off of the star destroyer that has 200k mass and 10000 hitpoints instead of a measly 2000. I fear attacking a non PC Decimator. Taking a lone fighter against a gunboat is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Fighters own MP ships because we are flying a bigger target with far less maneuver, but we are restricted to the same equipment that the fighters have. 'Capital grade' loot is the easiest way to ballance space combat.
Now wheredid I put that 5*star* button...I know I left it around here somewhere.
Hmm. Oh well, here they are anyway *****.
RSQViper
Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:39 pm
#22
TehyrPhoenix wrote:
Ok, I fly both an X-wing and a Nova. My guns on my X-Wing do 2800 damage each and my nova do about 3800 each. Now, that is about 25% stronget per shot on the nova. The armour is a similar ratio as well. Now look at the enemy ships in space. The damage and defence ratios of enemy ships is much higher. a T5 tie advance takes out my shields in about ten hits. a T5 decimator does this in one or two, that is about 200% stronger than the advance. this is similar with defences. The problem is that we are only able to use fighter gear on our MP ships. we have 5 million mass. There is no sport in building the ship. we put on the best fighter craft we can find and only hit about 600k mass max.
Plus, look at star ways lore. The millenium falcon doesn't use starfighter armour, it had armour stripped from a star destroyer. It doesnt use blaster cannons, it uses Quad Turbolasers. Its shields are also Cruiser Grade. Now, yes this is a highly modified ship, but are you going to argue that player ships arent. I have at least 7 different shipyads' parts on my ship.
The only way to fix the unballance is to make new 'capital grade' loot. Lets not waste that 5 million mass. Drop us some Quad Turbolasers off of the corvette that have 100k mass and deal 4k-8k damage. Give me some some armour off of the star destroyer that has 200k mass and 10000 hitpoints instead of a measly 2000. I fear attacking a non PC Decimator. Taking a lone fighter against a gunboat is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Fighters own MP ships because we are flying a bigger target with far less maneuver, but we are restricted to the same equipment that the fighters have. 'Capital grade' loot is the easiest way to ballance space combat.
I agree with this guy and am RE-quoting this for emphasis.
THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT WHAT THIS GUY IS SAYING
Message Edited by RSQViper on 03-23-2005 05:59 AM
Saabotage
Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:07 pm
#23
Bacon00 wrote:
I've been reading through these boards recently, and the main complaint I read is that the MP ships aren't powerful enough, and should be at least 3x more powerful than they really are.
Now, I agree with this to some extent. They aren't very powerful, and a group of 4 or 5 would be MUCH better off just going up in single fighters and blowing up anything they wanted for hours on end.... if their only intention was to be as powerful as they could be.
However, that isn't much FUN. To me, anyway. The single-fighter-group thing is OK, but it gets a bit tedious. You're fighting everybody else to get the loot, and if somebody else is in some uber-ship, you aren't gonna get much loot.
In the MP ships, you're all in one place and the loot is put in a box and you can argue over it later. Also, it's EXTREMELY HELLA (yes, I said extremely hella) fun to go up in MP ships with a full crew and take on The Warlord in Dath or Teir 4/5 YE-4's. I can spend HOURS doing that and I don't get bored. At all. Having to ditch Ops (where I man the F5 button, which shunts the cap to the shields, lol) and run back to repair the engines so we don't get blown out of the water never gets old, and is quite the thrill. Also the ability to bring back your ship from the brink of destruction and go blow the hell out of whatever nearly killed you is very rewarding.
I think you guys are focusing too much on the "OMG I MUST PWN EVERYTHING AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE" aspect of the game, and less on the "Am I having fun?" aspect of the game. MP ships are a blast. Go up with a good crew, and I garuntee you'll actually feel like you're playing a Star Wars game - a feeling I don't get when I stand in line in Coronet to buff so I can go kill hundreds upon hundreds of animals for really no apparent reason. I didn't see Han and Chewie out Biz Natch hunting or grinding out Quenker missions, drinking brandy and munching down Synthsteak. I did see Han andChewie blasting TIE's in space and doing emergency repairs on their heavily modified (aka droid programmed) ship, however.
You guys aren't playing SWG for any other reason than you want to have fun. Why else would you play? It's an escape from reality (a very, very time consuming and addicting escape.... lol), and a lot of you around here are losing sight of this.
And, on a lesser note, I think not making the MP ships "auto-own" everything makes you actually learn some skill. You need good gunners, a good pilot, a smart ops officer (btw - Ops is horribly fun in big firefights, granted you have some good programs loaded), and a quick repair guy to do well.... creatingMP-ship-only items like the Death Star Laser or somethingwith absurdly high mass isn't the way to go... it'll just make space that much more "l33t-dud3 only" and that much less fun.
I say beef the MP ships up just a tad - maybe give them a 15-25% damage mitigation -and leave it at that.
Um, not to spoil your fun. But a turret gunner can shunt the shields from his seat. It is a pain however yelling at them to shunt the shields when your almost dead. They are always way to slow on the draw.
quadpers0n
Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:26 am
#24
RSQViper wrote:
TehyrPhoenix wrote:
Ok, I fly both an X-wing and a Nova. My guns on my X-Wing do 2800 damage each and my nova do about 3800 each. Now, that is about 25% stronget per shot on the nova. The armour is a similar ratio as well. Now look at the enemy ships in space. The damage and defence ratios of enemy ships is much higher. a T5 tie advance takes out my shields in about ten hits. a T5 decimator does this in one or two, that is about 200% stronger than the advance. this is similar with defences. The problem is that we are only able to use fighter gear on our MP ships. we have 5 million mass. There is no sport in building the ship. we put on the best fighter craft we can find and only hit about 600k mass max.
Plus, look at star ways lore. The millenium falcon doesn't use starfighter armour, it had armour stripped from a star destroyer. It doesnt use blaster cannons, it uses Quad Turbolasers. Its shields are also Cruiser Grade. Now, yes this is a highly modified ship, but are you going to argue that player ships arent. I have at least 7 different shipyads' parts on my ship.
The only way to fix the unballance is to make new 'capital grade' loot. Lets not waste that 5 million mass. Drop us some Quad Turbolasers off of the corvette that have 100k mass and deal 4k-8k damage. Give me some some armour off of the star destroyer that has 200k mass and 10000 hitpoints instead of a measly 2000. I fear attacking a non PC Decimator. Taking a lone fighter against a gunboat is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Fighters own MP ships because we are flying a bigger target with far less maneuver, but we are restricted to the same equipment that the fighters have. 'Capital grade' loot is the easiest way to ballance space combat.
I agree with this guy and am RE-quoting this for emphasis.
THIS IS EXACTLY RIGHT WHAT THIS GUY IS SAYINGMessage Edited by RSQViper on 03-23-2005 05:59 AM
DITTO.
multiplayer ships have multiple players!!! why are they less difficult to go up against than a single player in every circumstance? it makes no sense. furthermore, i don't care 1 iota about a potential imbalance associated with capital grade loot used against NPCS. not one bit. most master level pilots can beat anything but other players anyway, and if you can't, well that's one of the downsides to a system geared towards forcing you to ask for help to advance. you're a bad pilot and you need practice.
Starstrider6
Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:54 am
#26
Well quad, just one question. Do you really think your little tirade/bragging essay on what a uber-pilot you are is going to help the discussion or hinder it? There are ways to make a point that people will pay attention to and ways to make a point that people will react to. Forget the fact that you're talking about what a sh!t-hot pilot you are in a game (which means what exactly - you're someone with a lot of online time getting good in a system with built-in and external imbalances?) and drop the attitude. MP ships need an upgrade, I haven't seen anyone disagree with that premise. How about checking your ego at the login screen and keeping the discussion on *that*, not who's the greatest digital ace in the game?