Pilot Archive

To a degree you're right in that fun is where you find it, but multiplayer ships do have significant limitations that prevent them from being nearly as fun as they could be. For instance, right now Starsider's got a week-long RP event going wherein numerous smugglers are trying to transport goods to Lok through an Imperial blockade of the planet. Yesterday me and the two others I was flying with stumbled over a player-piloted YT-1300 on its way to the Lok space station, but the battle was over as soon as it had begun; a single one of us in a TIE Advanced disabled their ship in one pass. We had some fun ordering them to follow us to the space station as their crew sneakily repaired and tried to blast their way out, but we disabled them again in no time at all. That a solitary light fighter can take down a fully-crewed POB ship so quickly puts a big old block in front of the kinds of things creative players could be doing with them. They're just too weak.

And that's in an RP event where we're trying to give them a fair chance to repair and escape. In straight PVP, these ships are instadeath for everyone in them. There's no way to have fun in one when you're such a fat, inviting, lightly armored (relative to the power of any players' blasters) target. It's no challenge at all to give them one good strafing run and then plow through the debris on your way to a more dangerous target.

I agree these ships can be way fun with a good crew and under the right battle conditions, but those conditions are so narrow it's discouraging to ever take a crew up in the first place. It's just frustrating to have a class of ship with so much potential and have so few chances to ever use it.

I swore there was a link to the MP Ship guide in the FAQ, but either I can't find it or Mono accidently forgot to re-add it when he redid the FAQ. Try doing a forum search on "Multiplayer Ship Guide".

---

TomoRainer wrote:
To a degree you're right in that fun is where you find it, but multiplayer ships do have significant limitations that prevent them from being nearly as fun as they could be. For instance, right now Starsider's got a week-long RP event going wherein numerous smugglers are trying to transport goods to Lok through an Imperial blockade of the planet. Yesterday me and the two others I was flying with stumbled over a player-piloted YT-1300 on its way to the Lok space station, but the battle was over as soon as it had begun; a single one of us in a TIE Advanced disabled their ship in one pass. We had some fun ordering them to follow us to the space station as their crew sneakily repaired and tried to blast their way out, but we disabled them again in no time at all. That a solitary light fighter can take down a fully-crewed POB ship so quickly puts a big old block in front of the kinds of things creative players could be doing with them. They're just too weak.

And that's in an RP event where we're trying to give them a fair chance to repair and escape. In straight PVP, these ships are instadeath for everyone in them. There's no way to have fun in one when you're such a fat, inviting, lightly armored (relative to the power of any players' blasters) target. It's no challenge at all to give them one good strafing run and then plow through the debris on your way to a more dangerous target.

I agree these ships can be way fun with a good crew and under the right battle conditions, but those conditions are so narrow it's discouraging to ever take a crew up in the first place. It's just frustrating to have a class of ship with so much potential and have so few chances to ever use it.

---

Although I agree in spirit, the problem is not that MP ships are too weak. The problem is that high-tier player weapons are far too powerful for PvP. The differences in weapon and shield strengths between the tiers of pilot skill need to be toned WAY, WAY down if the Devs hope for space to ever have any sort of authentic feel to it. I consider myself to be a very good pilot. I should not get pwned in a dogfight just because someone else's ship is "higher level" than me. I recognize that different ships should have different characteristics, but right now that is based entirely on the gear on your ship instead of on the ship itself (as it should be). I'm sorry, but there's no reason in Hell that an engine should put out the same max speed on both my A-Wing and my B-Wing. If anything, the different chassis should all come with their own inherent handling values (and I'm not talking about inertia, I'm aware an a-wing and b-wing *turn* differently) and the equipment you loot or buy should add BONUSES to those base values. But I digress.

As for the weapons, it's the same problem we run into with the ground game. Rather than make the AI harder at higher tiers, the Devs simply up the numbers: shield points, armor points, weapon damage, speed and turn rates, etc. In essence they crank up the speed and beef up the mobs. It's the cheap and lazy way to make the high-end dogfights tougher. As a result, high-end player weapons must be beefed up accordingly in order to "balance" with the much tougher mobs. However, shields don't get nearly as much of boost 'cause it's not needed as much. The end result is player ships which have weapons much more powerful than their shields in order to balance with high-end NPCs who have shields that are much more powerful than their weapons.

High Player Offense <------> High NPC Defense = balance

Now what happens when you take that matchup and apply it to PvP?

High Player Offense [b]<-----[/b] Low Player Defense = [b]FIRST SHOT WINS[/b] (unless defending ship is from a higher Tier, in which case the lower-Tier ship never had a chance )

So as you can see, currently player ships are balanced (at least challenge-wise) against NPCs, but extremely unbalanced against each other. The only possible solutions are to bring player/NPC offense and defense in line with eachother across the board, or institute a damage mitigation vs. player weapons only for all ships. Either way, I'd very much like to see PvP dogfights last more than four seconds. With the system the way it is right now, PvP in space is nearly non-existant.

j00 the wookiee known as bacon.

ya MP ships are fun the play in as but the PvE aspect no one is really complaining about. it is more of the PvP aspect of them. one POB ship has no chance verse a fighter. unless by some miricle the fighter misses you when it is coming head on and your people in the turrents hit them dead on 3 or 4 times. that is the only problem i have with them.

---

AythenGallo wrote:

---

TomoRainer wrote:
To a degree you're right in that fun is where you find it, but multiplayer ships do have significant limitations that prevent them from being nearly as fun as they could be. For instance, right now Starsider's got a week-long RP event going wherein numerous smugglers are trying to transport goods to Lok through an Imperial blockade of the planet. Yesterday me and the two others I was flying with stumbled over a player-piloted YT-1300 on its way to the Lok space station, but the battle was over as soon as it had begun; a single one of us in a TIE Advanced disabled their ship in one pass. We had some fun ordering them to follow us to the space station as their crew sneakily repaired and tried to blast their way out, but we disabled them again in no time at all. That a solitary light fighter can take down a fully-crewed POB ship so quickly puts a big old block in front of the kinds of things creative players could be doing with them. They're just too weak.

And that's in an RP event where we're trying to give them a fair chance to repair and escape. In straight PVP, these ships are instadeath for everyone in them. There's no way to have fun in one when you're such a fat, inviting, lightly armored (relative to the power of any players' blasters) target. It's no challenge at all to give them one good strafing run and then plow through the debris on your way to a more dangerous target.

I agree these ships can be way fun with a good crew and under the right battle conditions, but those conditions are so narrow it's discouraging to ever take a crew up in the first place. It's just frustrating to have a class of ship with so much potential and have so few chances to ever use it.

---

Although I agree in spirit, the problem is not that MP ships are too weak. The problem is that high-tier player weapons are far too powerful for PvP. The differences in weapon and shield strengths between the tiers of pilot skill need to be toned WAY, WAY down if the Devs hope for space to ever have any sort of authentic feel to it. I consider myself to be a very good pilot. I should not get pwned in a dogfight just because someone else's ship is "higher level" than me. I recognize that different ships should have different characteristics, but right now that is based entirely on the gear on your ship instead of on the ship itself (as it should be). I'm sorry, but there's no reason in Hell that an engine should put out the same max speed on both my A-Wing and my B-Wing. If anything, the different chassis should all come with their own inherent handling values (and I'm not talking about inertia, I'm aware an a-wing and b-wing *turn* differently) and the equipment you loot or buy should add BONUSES to those base values. But I digress.

As for the weapons, it's the same problem we run into with the ground game. Rather than make the AI harder at higher tiers, the Devs simply up the numbers: shield points, armor points, weapon damage, speed and turn rates, etc. In essence they crank up the speed and beef up the mobs. It's the cheap and lazy way to make the high-end dogfights tougher. As a result, high-end player weapons must be beefed up accordingly in order to "balance" with the much tougher mobs. However, shields don't get nearly as much of boost 'cause it's not needed as much. The end result is player ships which have weapons much more powerful than their shields in order to balance with high-end NPCs who have shields that are much more powerful than their weapons.

High Player Offense <------> High NPC Defense = balance

Now what happens when you take that matchup and apply it to PvP?

High Player Offense [b]<-----[/b] Low Player Defense = [b]FIRST SHOT WINS[/b] (unless defending ship is from a higher Tier, in which case the lower-Tier ship never had a chance )

So as you can see, currently player ships are balanced (at least challenge-wise) against NPCs, but extremely unbalanced against each other. The only possible solutions are to bring player/NPC offense and defense in line with eachother across the board, or institute a damage mitigation vs. player weapons only for all ships. Either way, I'd very much like to see PvP dogfights last more than four seconds. With the system the way it is right now, PvP in space is nearly non-existant.

---

but the thing is i have tons of fights in space that last longer vs pilots. 2 shots and my DI is dead and the third my ship is gone. these dog fights as they are vs players are realistic and hard. you need to know what you are doing and how to fly. It is based on skill rather then weapon streagth and shielding.(and i get my arse handed to me all the time ) Yes most fights will last 4s why? because the pilot in one of them does not know how to efficently fly or is not seeing if their is a human player in DS or Kessel with him. but fighter vs fighter is not the problem i see combat like that is fine. it is Fighter vs any other types of ships sort of ships that is the problem. Fighter vs. bomber if not a head on attack bomber has next to no chance. Fighter vs POB ship = one blown up POB ship with the fighter walking away without a scratch. this should not be

the only way i can see this getting changed without really changing how the system currently works is by adding a hitpoint system to ships. this number would be a constant for every type of ship. like all a-wings would have 1 hit point to them. a bomber like a y-wing would have 3-4. a bomber like a B-wing/Krayt would have 5-6. and a POB would have 10-15 or something like that. these hit point numbers would only be applicablewhen it is a PvP and woud not come into effect for PvE.

the hit points would basically be after your shields and armor goes down the hit point would absorb the full impact of the damage. but it would lose one point on it. and after all hit points are gone your componets get hit. this hitpoint value can not change and the only way it will recharge is if you are not fighting anything for 5-10minutes. Alternitavly if you land/repair(jumping out of DS will do this as well) your hitpoints on the ship will get recharged to max. this i believe will encourage more people to go up into DS in their POB ships or bombers. It would give variety to what you fight against and increase the difficulty of POB ships and give them a fighting chance in PvP. it is just a tought and i know most people won't like the idea of a Hit point system. but I had this idea awhile ago and i believe with some tweeking it could work.

Message Edited by DarkBShadow on 03-22-2005 12:52 PM

I would like to remind DarkBShadow that Star Wars glactic fights have nothing in common with true to life dog fights. This is not supposed to be realistic in that since. The rules of Science Fiction state that any small fighter will have a helluva time taking out a larger ship unless that ship is unarmed. Why? Because the larger ship can have heavier equipment that is more powerful.

If you want a comparison in real life military terms it is more along the lines of a destroyer vs. a PT boat. Even that anology isn't very accurate. If you want to talk about bombers think about the b-wing, tie-opressor, y-wing, and the firespray. MP ships aren't bombers, they're gunboats (well, they're supposed to be to some extent).

edit: apologies for the formatting... i don't know what is going on with it.

Message Edited by quadpers0n on 03-22-2005 10:00 AM

---

Ratape wrote:
I swore there was a link to the MP Ship guide in the FAQ, but either I can't find it or Mono accidently forgot to re-add it when he redid the FAQ. Try doing a forum search on "Multiplayer Ship Guide".

---

Its still in the stickies, look in the cool threads post, half way down is a POB Operations guide. Good stuff man.

While easily killed in PvP, the MP ships are fun for PvE - spent nearly 2 hours in Deep Space this weekend, and my crew had a total blast until we found a freshly spawned group of B-wing... complete with their missiles ready to fire.