Pilot Archive
Thread: ROTW ships: How would you correct them?
Message Edited by blackgunz on 08-15-2005 08:17 AM
Here have been my thoughts:
E-A2/ B22- Remove the missile mount, reduce mass to 70k
Vaksai- far too much mass compared to it's original ship, reduce to 100k at most
RGI- fix the hitbox and add a weapon slot.
Heavy Noobs- 75k mass
Oh, forgot one thing.
Give the Advanced X-wing a second missile slot!
"--Michael Stackpole, RS IRC
Halyn wrote:
DarthGorilla wrote:
Unfortunately they can't be 'fixed' in a way that's fair and who really want the 'Pre-Nerf' item inflation you see on some ground items. The only viable option is to re-vamp the existing ships especially the tier 4 ships that are suppose to be equal or better than these ships.
I disagree. The advantage to all of the non-heavy novice craft is that they have identical stats. Plus, the exploited gear showed us they could not allow launches of "overloaded" ships. Beefing up all the original craft, plus PvE, to match, will actually make the game much harder on newer pilots--combat will be faster and harder-hitting than it is now, which would be extremely discouraging considering how hard we all had it the first time we did pilot.
My 2 credits on balance?
Actis/Belbullab--drop to 50k mass. Leave high maneuverability, two gunports. (At 50k mass, it's hard to squeeze two guns in.)
ARC-170--drop maneuverability, increase to 180k mass. Should handle like a Y-wing.
RGI--Fix the freakin' hitbox. Then we'll work from there. Might need a *slight* maneuverability or mass hit--after all, at this time period, the A-wing is supposed to be the ultimate trump card for high-speed interceptors.
Advanced X-wing--drop to 125kish mass and leave maneuverability alone.
Vakasi--No idea, never even ran into one in space yet.
All heavy novice ships--reduce maneuverability heavily, at least by 50%, better would be 60 or 66%. Mass reduction isn't a viable option there.
I agree that the PYR of the new ships need some serious work but I wouldn't nerf the mass. You know I don't fly the ROTW ships in PvP for the reason that they are out of balance. I only had my Belbullab in DS one time and I engaged two JSF there so it was pretty much a fair fight. I've owned a heavy Z Li' made me and a Bel and I think they have way too many advantages. The thing is that I feel there are better solotions than lowering the Mass. So what happens if they nerf the ROTW ships mass tomorrow? Are the going to lock the ships in your datapad until you re-fit them? What if an A-wing could IFF in PvP? What if a bomber could target a ship and tag it with the hit of a button instead of waiting for missle lock. I'd brind my Longprobe back to Saturday night PvP if I could do that. Balance the ships with more options and stop nerfing stuff.
The problem is that we're not just trying to balance PvP--we're trying to also balance PvE, at least back to what it was pre-RotW. Without either reducing RotW craft's effectiveness or increasing the capabilities of AI pilots, it's not possible--and increasing AI would be fine for a lot of veteran pilots, but would be a hard blow to new pilots who already struggle with the current system.
DarthGorilla wrote:
I agree that the PYR of the new ships need some serious work but I wouldn't nerf the mass. You know I don't fly the ROTW ships in PvP for the reason that they are out of balance. I only had my Belbullab in DS one time and I engaged two JSF there so it was pretty much a fair fight. I've owned a heavy Z Li' made me and a Bel and I think they have way too many advantages. The thing is that I feel there are better solotions than lowering the Mass. So what happens if they nerf the ROTW ships mass tomorrow? Are the going to lock the ships in your datapad until you re-fit them? What if an A-wing could IFF in PvP? What if a bomber could target a ship and tag it with the hit of a button instead of waiting for missle lock. I'd brind my Longprobe back to Saturday night PvP if I could do that. Balance the ships with more options and stop nerfing stuff.
It isn't necessarily nerfing, but balancing. Honestly, after the time I've spent in my TIE Interceptor, I think 90% of the pilots out there would do fine in the ships if they were lighter. A lighter mass would force the pilot to choose components, instead of just throwing whatever they wanted in there. Shouldn't be able to get a level 8 shield/engine/gun combo into a fighter without extensive tinkering, there's no trade off between defense and offense in these fighters.
I would love to see more components though, like targeting systems and so forth.
JSF and Belb22 - Reduce mass to 60k(These need to have a hair less mass than an A-wing and TIE Advanced, since they'll still be smaller and more manueverable.)
Royal Guard Interceptor - Fix the hitbox. Reduce mass to 65k. (The RGI should be a tad harder to hit than a TIE Advanced, but as a trade off it only gets a single gun mount.)
Heavy X-wing - Reduce mass to 150k. (The pre-ROTJ X-wing was underpowered. A 150k mass version would be just about right.)
Heavy TIE, Heavy Z-95, Heavy Scyk -Move to Tier IV. Reduce to 65k mass. (They'll be more manueverable than an A-wing and TIE Advanced still, but they'll have a larger hitbox as a trade-off.)
Vaksai - Reduce mass to 120k. (The Vaksai isn't as manueverable as the JSF and Belb22, it only has a single gun mount, plus it has a much larger hitbox.)
ARC 170 - Increase mass to 150k. Fix the forward gun mounts. (Likemost MP ships, it will still pretty much suck, but not quite as much.)
Hmm...
Since you have the option to not fly any ROTW ship, please explain to me how they are unbalancing the game for you?
Oh yeah, there's only one answer to that question...and frankly, it sounds like Jedi talk to me (ie, I'm not as uber as I used to be, please change the game so I can be uber in PvPagain)
It's funny to me how few of the *long time, highly knowledgeable* JTL pilots don't seem to get what SOE has done here, so I'll explain it to you: First and foremost, for 80% of pilots, the ROTW ships provide the sweet, against-all-odds and survive feeling that is in the movies. And yes, they allow a mediocre pilot to be capable of more than what they would perhaps be capable of in a JTL ship. This provides fun factor for most of the playerbase that decides to dabble in space. The downside is, the uber/veteran pilots are getting the shaft in both directions, which leads to reason number two -
Having these ships in the game practically forces those of us with nice, pre-nerf equipment (which new pilots do not realistically have access to), to use equipment that all pilots, regardless of flight time have the opportunity to obtain. This evens the playing field for the newer pilots, as far as equipment in concerned. So actually, these ships in a way restore balance. While it's true that a veteran could still use their pre-nerf stuff (especially the DI's, which all need to either be nerfed, or restored to dropping status) and be certainly viable, but the disparity between a vet's ship capabilities, and a pilot who starts today and masters tomorrow will not be nearly as large. Try as you like, there is no argument on this point, because the facts are ultimately on my side. If any of you vets think that your/our prenerf equipment is/was not a *huge* advantange, then you don't really know as much as you think you do. Those DI's alone make many, many things possible in a ship loadout. Also, the chassis stats on the JSF/Belb were not originally 600/600/300...they were 300/200/150, or thereabouts. Why the change? Reread this paragraph.
I am not intentionally trying to flame anyone here. The veterans of this community have made substantial contributions to this forum, which is a fountain of knowledge and experience/tips for new pilots to get a leg up. But for you to continuously call for a nerf of the ships that 80% (or more) of the pilots in space use, and enjoy using, just because they make you *not as uber in PvP*, is wrong. I am not flaming you, Janu, for starting this thread, it's just that I am tired of hearing people whine about how *unbalancing* these ships are when, really...they are not. They provide fun factor for most of the pilots in the game (which is the point of the game, after all), and hence, should be left alone.
With one exception: The RGI hitbox needs to be made well...more hittable.
Take this as you will, and I will engage in civil debate on this topic with anyone who wishes to try.
Halyn wrote:
The problem is that we're not just trying to balance PvP--we're trying to also balance PvE, at least back to what it was pre-RotW. Without either reducing RotW craft's effectiveness or increasing the capabilities of AI pilots, it's not possible--and increasing AI would be fine for a lot of veteran pilots, but would be a hard blow to new pilots who already struggle with the current system.
DarthGorilla wrote:
I agree that the PYR of the new ships need some serious work but I wouldn't nerf the mass. You know I don't fly the ROTW ships in PvP for the reason that they are out of balance. I only had my Belbullab in DS one time and I engaged two JSF there so it was pretty much a fair fight. I've owned a heavy Z Li' made me and a Bel and I think they have way too many advantages. The thing is that I feel there are better solotions than lowering the Mass. So what happens if they nerf the ROTW ships mass tomorrow? Are the going to lock the ships in your datapad until you re-fit them? What if an A-wing could IFF in PvP? What if a bomber could target a ship and tag it with the hit of a button instead of waiting for missle lock. I'd brind my Longprobe back to Saturday night PvP if I could do that. Balance the ships with more options and stop nerfing stuff.
So increase the difficulty only on higher tier missions and craft.
Actis / bell 22: make it 65K mass, leave everythign else the same on them
Heavy Xwing: make it 120K mass
EDIT:
Oh ya,
Heavy noobs, i dunno honestly, but defintaly NOT 95K mass, and most definatly move the cert to teir 3 or teir 4.
Vaskai.. not sure. 150K mass is excessive though. 90 to 100K mass maybe?
Arc 120 ....dont really care.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 08-15-2005 09:03 AM
silverlady wrote:
Hmm...
Since you have the option to not fly any ROTW ship, please explain to me how they are unbalancing the game for you?
Oh yeah, there's only one answer to that question...and frankly, it sounds like Jedi talk to me (ie, I'm not as uber as I used to be, please change the game so I can be uber in PvPagain)
It's funny to me how few of the *long time, highly knowledgeable* JTL pilots don't seem to get what SOE has done here, so I'll explain it to you: First and foremost, for 80% of pilots, the ROTW ships provide the sweet, against-all-odds and survive feeling that is in the movies. And yes, they allow a mediocre pilot to be capable of more than what they would perhaps be capable of in a JTL ship. This provides fun factor for most of the playerbase that decides to dabble in space. The downside is, the uber/veteran pilots are getting the shaft in both directions, which leads to reason number two -
Having these ships in the game practically forces those of us with nice, pre-nerf equipment (which new pilots do not realistically have access to), to use equipment that all pilots, regardless of flight time have the opportunity to obtain. This evens the playing field for the newer pilots, as far as equipment in concerned. So actually, these ships in a way restore balance. While it's true that a veteran could still use their pre-nerf stuff (especially the DI's, which all need to either be nerfed, or restored to dropping status) and be certainly viable, but the disparity between a vet's ship capabilities, and a pilot who starts today and masters tomorrow will not be nearly as large. Try as you like, there is no argument on this point, because the facts are ultimately on my side. If any of you vets think that your/our prenerf equipment is/was not a *huge* advantange, then you don't really know as much as you think you do. Those DI's alone make many, many things possible in a ship loadout. Also, the chassis stats on the JSF/Belb were not originally 600/600/300...they were 300/200/150, or thereabouts. Why the change? Reread this paragraph.
I am not intentionally trying to flame anyone here. The veterans of this community have made substantial contributions to this forum, which is a fountain of knowledge and experience/tips for new pilots to get a leg up. But for you to continuously call for a nerf of the ships that 80% (or more) of the pilots in space use, and enjoy using, just because they make you *not as uber in PvP*, is wrong. I am not flaming you, Janu, for starting this thread, it's just that I am tired of hearing people whine about how *unbalancing* these ships are when, really...they are not. They provide fun factor for most of the pilots in the game (which is the point of the game, after all), and hence, should be left alone.
With one exception: The RGI hitbox needs to be made well...more hittable.
Take this as you will, and I will engage in civil debate on this topic with anyone who wishes to try.
Silverlady, I've made a hobby of humiliating JSF pilots who think their new tinkertoys make them something special.
Our concern here is well founded. We can kick ass and leave flaming wreckage in any ship you strap us into, that's just our nature. We've earned the skills needed to do that. What we see in these new fighters is an open floodgate to people with no respect for the challenges that we came up with to walk through JTL like it was a kindergarten playground without gaining so much as a shred of skill.
We make these statements because we know the balanced game inside and out. We've learned how to tweak the old school ships into lethal killing machines and we see these new "easy mode" fighters as insulting to the work we've done.
Our points about the ROTW fighters are not calls to nerf them because we are no longer "uber". "Uber" in space has to do with your skills and your smarts, not the ship you fly. JTL was always afantastic match of intelligence and skill between its twitch nature and the careful selection of components that went into your ships. Where the ships had failings because of mass/loadout sacrifices, player skill compensated through sheer wit, skill and perseverance. With ROTW ships,those esoteric traits that were once the hallmark of a trueAce has been lobotomized from JTL, and we'd like to seethem reinstated.
DarthGorilla wrote:
Unfortunately they can't be 'fixed' in a way that's fair and who really want the 'Pre-Nerf' item inflation you see on some ground items. The only viable option is to re-vamp the existing ships especially the tier 4 ships that are suppose to be equal or better than these ships.
I think thats a bunch of hogwash. The amount of "prenerf items" really isnt that high, really dont make up that big of a difference anymore, and is being used by many as an excuse.