Pilot Archive
Thread: Royal Guard Tie bug proof
IL-Vec wrote:
FeedbackEcho wrote:
Anyway, that's my opinion. That and 50 cents will buy you a coke.
Where can I get a Coke for 50 cents huh?
(I'm in Canada)
LeaphChausew wrote:
Yeh Quad. I always value your oppinions but I was stationary. Plus I'm a pretty accurate shooter. Lining up simple 'test shots' are impossible to miss plus we were grouped so I had the hitbox in plain sight. The fact that anyone else who has tried this is coming out with the same results kind of proves it too. The RG TIE hitbox is broken whether it was just bad design or mistake is irrelevant. Needs to be adjusted before the ship becomes a valid contender in modern pvp in my opinion.Thing is. People have to realise that its got to the point where people aren't justcalling for a fixbecause they can't handle it.People who fly well and can for example shoot own RG TIE pilots are saying it should be fixed. Hell, even people I know who fly JSF and do very well in them say that the ship needs to be brought into line. When a community does that..it is undeniable that somthing should be done about it.
oh believe me, i don't like the ship either. it doesn't make a lick of sense that the hitbox is smaller than the model, and if the wings really do protect said hitbox, it's no longer just a feature or a quirk, but an exploit if you use one imo, and one that should be fixed pronto by the devs. i just could have sworn i was able to hit it from the sides. but like i said, coulda been the crack.
i hate to be the monkey in the wrench. but i just hit my stationary IGI directly from the side. i'll have screenshots to illustrate in a bit here.
i still have some more testing to do, there's some ... oddities in my results. i can definately 100% now hit from the side, however only when i'm not aiming directly at the ball, rather only when the center between both Z=95 bolts is aimed directly at the ball. if i go graphically by the actual bolt firing, i miss every time. that's interesting because unless there's an optical illusion or some kind of strangeness with first person perspective i always thought the individual bolts and aiming those is what registered a hit... maybe convergence is moving the bolt around the gap in the wings, but hitting the ball? kinda sceptical that's what's going on, as i'm aiming slightly above the gap.
anyway, i need to use a different gun cause i almost blew my ship up twice.... bb with more results in a bit.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 04:47 AM
here is the first, most telling screenshot. note the hitbox area is completely obscured by the solar panel
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=306549&poll_id=0&warned=y
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-200505:40 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 05:40 AM
well, the issue isn't if they are harder to hit or not, that's a certainty. but other posts have already discussed reasons why. the model not being the same size as the hitbox is an optical illusion that makes the ship difficult to hit, it's speed modifier is 1.0, as opposed to .9x, it's hitbox size is slightly smaller than the JSF.
what my tests are addressing here, is the misconception that the solar panel makes the ship invincible due to protecting the hitbox from fire. it clearly does not do that, or is doing it in a form that can't be explained easily by testing. i'm not sure how exactly danag and leaph tested this, maybe there's something to it that i missed but i was able to hit the IGI dead on, within seconds of starting the test.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 05:46 AM
If the computer "registers" the hit and displays the shield flash...eliminating "hit box" difficulty.
And another party sees the sheild flash...eliminating latency effects.
And the ship doesn't register damage....something is wrong.
Hrm...kinda reminds me of the song from K's Choice..."Somthings wrong"....heh
OK, if you want to get scientific, then I will point out a flaw. This could hold true IF these high mass, small size ships used componets were more dense. Seeing as each pilot uses componets that are crafted or looted from the same sources, this can not hold true. So a ship like the JSF, with the size of an A Wing, could not be more dense (ie. more mass). The math just does not work.
TheZabrakMaul wrote:
Danag wrote:
ISN'T MASS THAT STUFF THAT TAKES UP SPACE? Wait.....did I just try to make logic from SWG..
Nope, greater size doesn't necessarily mean greater mass. An object's mass is equal to the density of the material multiplied by the volume of the object. Thus it is possible for smaller things to have a greater mass, eg a small metal ball bearing will have more mass than a ball of polystyrene twice the size of the ball bearing because the ball bearing has a higher density, so you see SWG does make sense in that regard
the deal with that is the same deal that you get when shooting at a friendly IGI, or even a JSF for that matter. notice how you can hit it on the edges and still get the "beeping" sound and the red X? the graphic associated with that shield flash is based on the model, not on the hitbox. at least i think anyway...
interesting note i just proved beyond resonable doubt that the Z-95 is a center fire ship. "whaaaa?! he's crazy!" you say.
nope. go fight a stationary JSF. fire so that both bolts pass wide of the bottom and top of the ship. you will score a hit every time because the graphics and the actual point where the gun fires are not lining up. perhaps the Z-95 is alone in this regard, although I HIGHLY doubt it.
that means everyone who tells you the wider spread of an interceptor gives it an tacticaladvantage is wrong. you can argue a visual advantage until you are blue in the face, that's a matter of opinion. PERHAPS wide spread ships have a bigger invisible centerfire bolt than other ships. i don't know of any way it'd be possible to test that though.
everyone who says they miss in the center of the spread of an x-wing is probably wrong too. maybe, there are two points, 1 for each of the wing guns and those have a gap in the middle. same with the b-wing, maybe there's 4 points with a gap in the middle, giving it a clear advantage, not a disadvantage, when shooting down fighters, but i'm willing to wager that there's only 1 point. 1 gun ships though? nope, no way. they are without a doubtcenterfire.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 06:15 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 06:37 AM
quadpers0n wrote:
the deal with that is the same deal that you get when shooting at a friendly IGI, or even a JSF for that matter. notice how you can hit it on the edges and still get the "beeping" sound and the red X? the graphic associated with that shield flash is based on the model, not on the hitbox. at least i think anyway...
interesting note i just proved beyond resonable doubt that the Z-95 is a center fire ship. "whaaaa?! he's crazy!" you say.
nope. go fight a stationary JSF. fire so that both bolts pass wide of the bottom and top of the ship. you will score a hit every time because the graphics and the actual point where the gun fires are not lining up. perhaps the Z-95 is alone in this regard, although I HIGHLY doubt it.
that means everyone who tells you the wider spread of an interceptor gives it an tacticaladvantage is wrong. you can argue a visual advantage until you are blue in the face, that's a matter of opinion. PERHAPS wide spread ships have a bigger invisible centerfire bolt than other ships. i don't know of any way it'd be possible to test that though.
everyone who says they miss in the center of the spread of an x-wing is probably wrong too. maybe, there are two points, 1 for each of the wing guns and those have a gap in the middle. same with the b-wing, maybe there's 4 points with a gap in the middle, giving it a clear advantage, not a disadvantage, when shooting down fighters, but i'm willing to wager that there's only 1 point. 1 gun ships though? nope, no way. they are without a doubtcenterfire.
also, that shows that convergence between the large spread of the z-95 guns cannot explain my ability to hit the ship from all angles. all 1 gun or 2 gun centerfire ships will have the exact same results as i did. perhaps, leaph tested this in a multi gun ship, and i'm wrong about the single point for incurring damage. if so, it's entirely possible his aim was spot on, yet the gap inbetween the 2 or 3 points is responsible for the discrepency.
it's also possible leaph was working under the philosphy that i had been up until an hour ago, that a single bolt is all you need to cause damage to a ship. aiming 1 bolt at the hitbox of an IGI in any kind of fighter with even mediocre gun spread will cause you to miss 100% of the time if you are close enough.
in any case, what does that mean for the status of the IGI "bug"?
well the reasons it's hard to hit are the same reasons people have talked about before
1. it's got a hitbox a smidge smaller than the JSF.
2. it's got a hitbox that is not the same size as the ship model, forcing players to optically decide at high speed where that hitbox is, much more difficult than just shooting at the model itself.
3. it's got a 1.0 speed mod, IMO that's the 60% of the problem, not 33%, as the ship generally moves faster than other ships. give an a-wing a JSF hitbox and i think you'd see the same problem. up for debate though.
has anyone considered the possibility that a red ship could be easier to hit than a black/grey ship? and thus the devs purposefully decreased the hitbox size to compensate for the bright red beacon screaming around? i'm reluctant to admit they actually tested this and made an informed decision on what the presence of the ship would do to the balance of PVP, perhaps they weren't so much thinking about that in the decision to make these small hitbox ships as they were listening to cries from the shipwright community that their businesses were suffering. small hitbox ships certainly have increased reliance on missles, i never considered loading missles on my ship to fight an a-wing. never needed to.
i'm starting to think folks, that this ship is not going to be fixed and the absolute best we can hope for is the entire ball, or the center of the ballmade the hitbox instead of just the scalp.
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 06:15 AM
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 09-03-2005 06:37 AM
I don't personally find bright red the easiest colour to pick out against a black background. I might just be wierd, but from the perspective you'll se an RG TIE in a turning fight, it doesn't exactly look like a supernova 
. However..I might just need to turn my moniters brightness up.
I agree too. If they just slide the hitbox over the entire balls..that'd be somthing.