Pilot Archive
Thread: How to Fix the Jedi Fighter.
There's plenty of "specific" proposals for how to change these ships without smacking them too hard with the nerf bat.
Also, I can see the arguement that "In PvE this is not as much a concern, it's the limited PvP community that is screaming for balance" In many ways that can be seen as true.
I PvP in space. So yeah, I guess I'm a PvP'er. Also it's not "just" the JSF thats out of balance. The ARC and Greivous and the Heavy fighters are almost equally out of balance. Sure, the amount of forward weapons are different and the mass is slightly different, but essentially they all have nearly the same YPR. Thats the problem.
These of course are different from the original ships we were given throughout pilot. I don't want to use too many comparisons to specific ships as I would suggest looking at the specific stats for those ships. Leave the JTL original ships alone. Period, thats our benchmark.
Compare mass/YPR of the original ships at the proper tier levels and bring these "new" ships into line with that.
600/600/400 Y/P/R is way over the top when you consider the 90k-125k mass of these new ships. There is the krux of the issue. It's not who gets which ship with which uber stat, it's ALL of these new ships have insane YPR ratings. Simply tweaking those down to a reasonable level will resolve 90% of this issue.
If you're still unclear on what I mean by all that.. just go to page 1 or 2 of this thread, scroll down, I listed the cruuent stats and some proposed changes.
Flaming people or making uninformed statements just clouds the issue and makes the Dev's think we're too combative to contribute our opinions to help make this game better.
We, those in favour of balancing this ship, are trying to keep some semblance of hope in the game. For many of us, this is the last part of the game even worth playing. We don't want it useless, or unusable, or even nerfed to the point where it is inferior to the top "old" ships. We just want balance.
Gaitan wrote:
Alyxian wrote:
For you it's about "balance". Try and remember that not many people PvP in space, and the majority of players do not post on these boards. Any changes made to things added to the game affect all of the players. It's my guess that the "elite" status of the JSF will be a lure to draw new players in.
From what I have seen, there really are only 2 major types of players in space, those who PvP, and those who are working up to master and then do not fly much anymore. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, PvP is all that is left once people hit master. The Jedi fighter does not need "elite" status to attract these mythical new players that come in from watching EP3, it's shape and appearance alone will do that. Besides, this is about PvE balance as well, what point is there in flying a different ship even in PvE?
If you're going to argue that they are old and should be poorer for it because they are old in the canon, then you're going to have to start demanding a lot of other changes - like no Jedi for openers.
Actually, it was not my arguement, I was just correcting his,and as for no Jedi...i sincerely wish that was the case. Canon, timeline, etc, does not exist in
World of Evercraft IISWG. They threw that out a long time ago, to a galaxy far far away.
No one ever ended a fight by participating in it. Don't feed the trolls.
Point taken
Not to forget that pilots already fly to DS for decay-less repairs and that we were discussing about total removal of PvP decay some time ago. Ultimately chassis and component HP does not matter that much in PvP. Yes it can soak up some damage that got through your shields and armor but if you are in such a situation it won't help you much either. Also low chassis HP means less damage to your components so it is not necessarily an advantage.
No matter what or how we change something, I would like to prevent prenerf fighters at all cost. Then we will have an elite of players that uses them and has their "i win" button which causes another imbalance.
I think most people agree that these ships are overpowered. The argument that no people PvP anyways does not hold water (even less water on *advertising*Starsider 
). You don't break a core system of the game because no one uses it. You rather fix it, balance it more out and encourage the usage of it. After all you do not (intentionally)break the bazaar because people preffer to use their own vendor.
Additionally, no one asked for having these ships nerfed into nothingness. Nor do we ask them to be useless in PvEWe were just extremely busy to counter the next "last straw" some people would hold on to preserve their overpowered ships.
Vegitaa brought up some great ideas on how to fix the ships without making them useless. They remain an addition to every pilots arsenal.
It would be nice for people to comment on his ideas with constructive critics instead of trolling or making up arguments against the obvious.
Kitten
Kitten
Kitten_Starsider wrote:
Not to forget that pilots already fly to DS for decay-less repairs and that we were discussing about total removal of PvP decay some time ago. Ultimately chassis and component HP does not matter that much in PvP. Yes it can soak up some damage that got through your shields and armor but if you are in such a situation it won't help you much either. Also low chassis HP means less damage to your components so it is not necessarily an advantage.
No matter what or how we change something, I would like to prevent prenerf fighters at all cost. Then we will have an elite of players that uses them and has their "i win" button which causes another imbalance.
I think most people agree that these ships are overpowered. The argument that no people PvP anyways does not hold water (even less water on *advertising*Starsider
Additionally, no one asked for having these ships nerfed into nothingness. Yes, they did. There are posts where people are insisting that the new ships have their mass and YPR "adjusted". Nor do we ask them to be useless in PvEWe were just extremely busy to counter the next "last straw" some people would hold on to preserve their overpowered ships. It is entirely possible to over-state your case, when something simple sticks in the mind. Take for instance your earlier post where you developed a mathematical equation to prove your point. Way too much. The difference between the complexity of your argumentin contrastto Vegitaa'scomparisonof pre-expansion ships YPR to the new ships was immense. Your efforts are appreciated, but for many people not understood.
Vegitaa brought up some great ideas on how to fix the ships without making them useless. They remain an addition to every pilots arsenal.
It would be nice for people to comment on his ideas with constructive critics instead of trolling or making up arguments against the obvious. It would be nice for people to stay on the topic, instead of drifting off into areas of what engine they are using, what missles they can fire, and who's trolling whom. I would also caution you against posting things like "making up arguments against the obvious". It demeans anyone that doesn't agree with you, and only serves to strengthen their resolve. "I don't think they need to change anything" is just as valid an argument as "I think they need to adjust the new ships", and if people aren't willing to accept that and work towards a compromise then threads like this will just continue to throw flak back and forth until it's locked.
One last thing. The fact that someone PvP's in this game in no way entitles them to anything more than any other player in the game. Everyone paid for the game, the expansion, and pays to play. Far too often I see players speak on these forums with an obvious tone of superiority because they PvP. I PvP in space and on the ground and I'm here to tell you I don't like it when I read it, and I read it in too many posts. "I PvP" is not an "I Win" button for an argument about altering something within the game. The number of players that don't PvP far outnumber those that do. And to anyone that wants to hold on to the arrogant notion that PvP is a vital part of SWG I ask you to consider that if it was so important, then why was the GCW changed to allow players to participate without ever having to get involved in PvP?
Don't make things complicated in this debate. The compromise is on the table and it's a good one. Change the YPR on the expansion ships to bring them in line with pre-expansion ships. Heck, we could even choose a color for a ribbon and put it in a sig:
"I support changing the YPR of the new ships to fair levels. You can too."
Kitten
Kitten
Y 200
P 250
R 125
A 35
D 60
Speed Modifier: 0.95
That would bring it inline with the X-Wing, Aggressor and...well...heck, the closest ship for the Freelancers in that mass range is the Dunelizard.
It would give the Imperials a relatively fast, high-mass ship with 2 guns. It would give the Rebels a fighter that lies between the capabilities of the A-Wing and X-Wing. It would give the Freelancers something small enough to PvP with. hehehe.
Still no coment on the "one time reward advanced A-Wing idea" My rebel pilot would love that too.
I'm going to hit kash space when i get back from class and see if I can find that elusive a-wing model and I'll post a pic of it. Its a bad%#$ looking ship.
Gaitan wrote:
Kitten_Starsider wrote:
Not to forget that pilots already fly to DS for decay-less repairs and that we were discussing about total removal of PvP decay some time ago. Ultimately chassis and component HP does not matter that much in PvP. Yes it can soak up some damage that got through your shields and armor but if you are in such a situation it won't help you much either. Also low chassis HP means less damage to your components so it is not necessarily an advantage.
No matter what or how we change something, I would like to prevent prenerf fighters at all cost. Then we will have an elite of players that uses them and has their "i win" button which causes another imbalance.
I think most people agree that these ships are overpowered. The argument that no people PvP anyways does not hold water (even less water on *advertising*Starsider
Additionally, no one asked for having these ships nerfed into nothingness. Yes, they did. There are posts where people are insisting that the new ships have their mass and YPR "adjusted". Nor do we ask them to be useless in PvEWe were just extremely busy to counter the next "last straw" some people would hold on to preserve their overpowered ships. It is entirely possible to over-state your case, when something simple sticks in the mind. Take for instance your earlier post where you developed a mathematical equation to prove your point. Way too much. The difference between the complexity of your argumentin contrastto Vegitaa'scomparisonof pre-expansion ships YPR to the new ships was immense. Your efforts are appreciated, but for many people not understood.
Vegitaa brought up some great ideas on how to fix the ships without making them useless. They remain an addition to every pilots arsenal.
It would be nice for people to comment on his ideas with constructive critics instead of trolling or making up arguments against the obvious. It would be nice for people to stay on the topic, instead of drifting off into areas of what engine they are using, what missles they can fire, and who's trolling whom. I would also caution you against posting things like "making up arguments against the obvious". It demeans anyone that doesn't agree with you, and only serves to strengthen their resolve. "I don't think they need to change anything" is just as valid an argument as "I think they need to adjust the new ships", and if people aren't willing to accept that and work towards a compromise then threads like this will just continue to throw flak back and forth until it's locked.
One last thing. The fact that someone PvP's in this game in no way entitles them to anything more than any other player in the game. Everyone paid for the game, the expansion, and pays to play. Far too often I see players speak on these forums with an obvious tone of superiority because they PvP. I PvP in space and on the ground and I'm here to tell you I don't like it when I read it, and I read it in too many posts. "I PvP" is not an "I Win" button for an argument about altering something within the game. The number of players that don't PvP far outnumber those that do. And to anyone that wants to hold on to the arrogant notion that PvP is a vital part of SWG I ask you to consider that if it was so important, then why was the GCW changed to allow players to participate without ever having to get involved in PvP?
Don't make things complicated in this debate. The compromise is on the table and it's a good one. Change the YPR on the expansion ships to bring them in line with pre-expansion ships. Heck, we could even choose a color for a ribbon and put it in a sig:
"I support changing the YPR of the new ships to fair levels. You can too."
Kitten
Kitten
Of course it is totally valid to state interests of various groups (i.e. it being nice to have a maneuverable ship for PvE that can pack nice equipment too) but neither of these is an argument. I think the point here is how to satisfy all interest groups (in no special order: PvP pilots, PvE pilots, shipwrights) by concentrating on matter at hand and the actual interests of both groups. An example would be to make all NPC ships less maneuverable, reducing the PYR of the new ships down to the other ships level and improving shipwright components. PvP would be balanced, PvE pilots would not notice a difference and shipwrights would get more customers.
I am sure you agree with me that both are integral to SWG no matter which is more popular with people which is extremely hard to state by the way since we do not have any representative census of the space PvE and PvP population. Just as in the discussion about PvP decay there are better ways to improve partial aspects of one core system without causing collateral damage to the other. For example NPCs could get worse shields and/or a worse maneuverability so in the end you will not notice a difference in PvP but still gain an advantage in PvE.
This could be either achieved by lowering the mass in conformity with their size and maneuverability or by lowering the PYR in conformity with their size and mass. Alternatively you could lower both(not so extreme then of course)with the same result of a ship equal (but hopefully different) to the old ships.
Just like you I tend to preffer the lowering the PYR to 225/225/112 (JSF) and 250/250/125 (other) and keeping the original mass due to the points I stated earlier in this thread. However, lowering the mass or lowering both a bit remain options and do not nerf any ship into nothingness. So ultimately, all people in favour for balancing the new ship argued for making them equal just in different ways.
I must say I'm rather disappointed in you Kitten, because I respect the way you have posted in the past and your work on Starsider to make space PvP an exciting option for players. I even created a character on Starsider just so I could work him up and take part. It's a shame you want to keep tossing out high-volume words and highly intellectual arguments to make a simple point.
I didn't call you an elitist. You managed to jump to that - and several other - conclusions all on your own. I said that making the argument that any changes need to be made to the new ships based soley on the premise that they unbalance PvP are poor ones, since a minority of players use the space aspect of the game at all, much less use it for PvP.
"Furthermore, neither saying the post ROTW ships need to be fixed nor the opposite are arguments anyone brought up. They were theses and first need to be proven by arguments."
The Science Professor routine may win you a few cheers from the cheap seats, but I suspect that more people read something like that, think "huh?" and then ignore it. That's exactly what I was telling you when I said you can go overboard making a point. It's a simple thing. The JSF has more mass, twin forward weapons, and has YPR modifiers superior to any other pre-expansion fighter. It doesn't take a Mensa member to figure out that if you stick those things into a pre-set environment (Space) the JSF will out-perform any pre-expansion ship. All the fancy words are just your way of saying "Look how smart I am" and I doubt you picked up any more support for getting things changed, since a lot of people had no idea what the hell you were talking about.
As I said Kitten, I'm disappointed in your reaction, however maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
I've stated my position, and I can see no further need to participate in this thread in any way.
*turns and strolls out of the forum*
Heaven forbid someone post in an intelligent manner.
Gaitan wrote:
I must say I'm rather disappointed in you Kitten, because I respect the way you have posted in the past and your work on Starsider to make space PvP an exciting option for players. I even created a character on Starsider just so I could work him up and take part. It's a shame you want to keep tossing out high-volume words and highly intellectual arguments to make a simple point.
I find Kitten's posts (even if I occassionally disagree) far more preferable to a lot of the crap that people post. She shows that her ideas are well-thought out and balanced. I have a lot more respect for her because she uses intelligent language.
"--Michael Stackpole, RS IRC
- Max Speed 993, 1215 boosted (Without Engine Overload or any droid programs)
- Y/P/R Accel 10.5/10.5/5.2
- Y/P/R (Max) 1.3
- Frt Shield 1037
- Bck Shield 1037
- Recharge 7.5
- Mass 85881.0/90000
- Cap 951.7 Recharge 41.9
The components individually...
- Reactor cert3, 2203mass, 12656 Reactor Generation
- Engine cert8, 24.4k mass, 104.6 spd 75/75/72 YPR
- Shield cert5, 7122 mass, 1037/1037 hps, 7.46 generation
- Fnt Armour 6449 mass, 494 armour
- Rr Armour 7235 mass, 1053 armour
- Cap cert4, 4231 mass, 951 energy, 41.9 recharge
- Booster cert2, 1372 mass, 30.7 acc, 23.4 spd
- DI 495 mass, 14.7 spd
- Gun 1 cert 7, 14528 mass, 1484-2843 dam
- Gun 2 cert 7, 16910 mass, 1986-3071 max damage
- Cntr Measures 895 mass
Yeah, that seems like a well balanced ship. Once I load my droid programs my cruising speed is 1380 and with the high YPR I was literally flying backwards in front of tier 5 AWings last night shooting them in the cockpit.
I think that guy got mad cause I teased his buddy in the AWing last night before taking out the engine with 1 shot leaving them floating.
It's not JUST the JSF that can do this. I can put all of these components into any of the new ships and do the exact same thing.